Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:39 am

Herodotus 7.226.1 - 228.2

Λακεδαιμονίων δὲ καὶ Θεσπιέων τοιούτων γενομένων ὅμως λέγεται ἀνὴρ ἄριστος γενέσθαι Σπαρτιήτης Διηνέκης· τὸν τόδε φασὶ εἰπεῖν τὸ ἔπος πρὶν ἢ συμμεῖξαί σφεας τοῖσι Μήδοισι, πυθόμενον πρός τευ τῶν Τρηχινίων ὡς ἐπεὰν οἱ βάρβαροι ἀπίωσι τὰ τοξεύματα, τὸν ἥλιον ὑπὸ τοῦ πλήθεος τῶν ὀϊστῶν ἀποκρύπτουσι· τοσοῦτο τὸ πλῆθος αὐτῶν εἶναι· τὸν δὲ οὐκ ἐκπλαγέντα τούτοισι εἰπεῖν, ἐν ἀλογίῃ ποιεύμενον τὸ τῶν Μήδων πλῆθος, ὡς πάντα σφι ἀγαθὰ ὁ Τρηχίνιος ξεῖνος ἀγγέλλοι, εἰ ἀποκρυπτόντων τῶν Μήδων τὸν ἥλιον ὑπὸ σκιῇ ἔσοιτο πρὸς αὐτοὺς ἡ μάχη καὶ οὐκ ἐν ἡλίῳ. ταῦτα μὲν καὶ ἄλλα τοιουτότροπα ἔπεά φασι Διηνέκεα τὸν Λακεδαιμόνιον λιπέσθαι μνημόσυνα. μετὰ δὲ τοῦτον ἀριστεῦσαι λέγονται Λακεδαιμόνιοι δύο ἀδελφεοί, Ἀλφεός τε καὶ Μάρων Ὀρσιφάντου παῖδες. Θεσπιέων δὲ εὐδοκίμεε μάλιστα τῷ οὔνομα ἦν Διθύραμβος Ἁρματίδεω. θαφθεῖσι δέ σφι αὐτοῦ ταύτῃ τῇ περ ἔπεσον καὶ τοῖσι πρότερον τελευτήσασι ἢ <τοὺς> ὑπὸ Λεωνίδεω ἀποπεμφθέντας οἴχεσθαι, ἐπιγέγραπται γράμματα λέγοντα τάδε·

μυριάσιν ποτὲ τῇδε τριηκοσίαις ἐμάχοντο ἐκ Πελοποννάσου χιλιάδες τέτορες.

ταῦτα μὲν δὴ τοῖσι πᾶσι ἐπιγέγραπται, τοῖσι δὲ Σπαρτιήτῃσι ἰδίῃ·

ὦ ξεῖν’, ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε κείμεθα τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι.

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Lacedaimonians(?) and Thespieons(?) having become thus, nevertheless the most valorous man came to be the Spartan Dienekes. They say he said this remark before they even (ἢ?) skirmished against the Medes. Having learned from one of the Trechinions(?) that whenever the barbarians let loose their bolts, they hid the sun under the crowd of their arrows, such was their number. But he said, undaunted by this, making (ποιεύμενον = ποιούμενον?) a jest of the Medean numbers, as if everything the Trechinion foreigner revealed was good, if when the Medes hid the sun the battle would be carried (ἔσοιτο -- φέρω?) to them in the shade and not in the sun. They say Dienekes left this and other statements of the same nature behind as memories. After him, the most valorous is said to be two Lacedaimonian brothers, Alpheos and Maron, the children of Orsiphantos. Of the Thespieons, one is most regarded whose name was Dithyrambos son of Armatides(?). On the graves of the two who fell there that day and of those who died before those sent by Loenides retreated, letters are inscribed saying this:

Once by these three hundred μυριάσιν were four thousand driven out of the Peloponnese.

This was inscribed on all, but on only the Spartan monuments was:

O stranger, inform the Lacedaimonians that here we lie obedient (present?) to their dictates.
Final:

Lacedaemonians and Thespians having become thus, nevertheless the most valorous man came to be the Spartan Dienekes. They say he said this remark before they even (ἢ?) skirmished against the Medes. Having learned from one of the Trechinians that whenever the barbarians let loose their bolts, they hid the sun under the crowd of their arrows, such was their number. But he said, undaunted by this, making (ποιεύμενον = ποιούμενον?) a jest [irrationality] of the Medean numbers, as if everything the Trechinian foreigner messaged was good, that if when the Medes hid the sun, the battle would be to them in the shade and not in the sun. They say Dienekes left this and other statements of the same nature behind as memories. After him, the most valorous is said to be two Lacedaemonian brothers, Alpheos and Maron, the children of Orsiphantos. Of the Thespieons, one is most regarded whose (τῷ can be a relative?) name was Dithyrambos son of Armatides. They fell for the sake of those that were buried on that very day and because of these died before those who were sent away by Leonides departed.

Once by these three hundred were four thousand of myriads fought out of the Peloponnese.

This was inscribed on all, but on only the Spartan monuments was:

O stranger, inform the Lacedaemonians that here we lie obedient to their dictates.

I'm uncertain of exactly what's going on here: θαφθεῖσι δέ σφι αὐτοῦ ταύτῃ τῇ περ ἔπεσον καὶ τοῖσι πρότερον τελευτήσασι ἢ <τοὺς> ὑπὸ Λεωνίδεω ἀποπεμφθέντας οἴχεσθαι. Especially ταύτῃ τῇ περ ἔπεσον. Maybe I understood it correctly at the end, but I beat my head at it for a while.
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:33 am

γενομένων, γενέσθαι -- just "be/was" or maybe "proved to be"

συμμεῖξαί-- "join battle", not "skirmish"

Τρηχινίων -- usually in English the Attic form is used: "Trachinians"

ἔπος, ἔπεά -- not just remarks but famous or proverbial remarks or maybe "quips" would do.

τοξεύματα -- arrows or maybe volleys of arrows

ἐν ἀλογίῃ ποιεύμενον -- "making light of" the numbers of the Medes

λιπέσθαι μνημόσυνα -- he left them as sayings he was remembered for after his death.

θαφθεῖσι δέ σφι αὐτοῦ ταύτῃ τῇ περ ἔπεσον καὶ τοῖσι πρότερον τελευτήσασι ἢ <τοὺς> ὑπὸ Λεωνίδεω ἀποπεμφθέντας οἴχεσθαι, ἐπιγέγραπται γράμματα λέγοντα τάδε -- This is hard if not impossible to put into readable English without tinkering with the syntax. "For them and for those who died before those whom Leonidas had sent arrived, after they had been buried right where they fell, an epitaph was engraved saying; . . . "

αὐτοῦ ταύτῃ τῇ περ ἔπεσον -- "right where they fell"

It's not wholly clear to me whether θαφθεῖσι δέ . . . αὐτοῦ ταύτῃ τῇ περ ἔπεσον ("right where they fell") goes with both σφι and τοῖσι πρότερον τελευτήσασι . . . οἴχεσθαι or just with σφι. The datives θαφθεῖσι σφι . . . καὶ τοῖσι are complements of ἐπιγέγραπται -- the epitaphs were inscribed on a monument at their gravesite after they were buried right where they fell, if I understand this correctly.

μυριάσιν ποτὲ τῇδε τριηκοσίαις ἐμάχοντο ἐκ Πελοποννάσου χιλιάδες τέτορες. -- Once upon a time, four thousand from the Peloponnese fought three million [10,000X 300] here.

ταῦτα μὲν δὴ τοῖσι πᾶσι ἐπιγέγραπται, τοῖσι δὲ Σπαρτιήτῃσι ἰδίῃ· -- the foregoing was inscribed for all of them collectively, but the following was inscribed for the Spartans separately

I didn't think Grassmann's law would allow θαφθεῖσι, but apparently it does.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grassmann%27s_law
Last edited by Hylander on Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:44 pm

Hylander wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:33 am
θαφθεῖσι δέ σφι αὐτοῦ ταύτῃ τῇ περ ἔπεσον καὶ τοῖσι πρότερον τελευτήσασι ἢ <τοὺς> ὑπὸ Λεωνίδεω ἀποπεμφθέντας οἴχεσθαι, ἐπιγέγραπται γράμματα λέγοντα τάδε -- This is hard if not impossible to put into readable English without tinkering with the syntax. "For them and for those who died before those whom Leonidas had sent arrived, after they had been buried right where they fell, an epitaph was engraved saying; . . . "

αὐτοῦ ταύτῃ τῇ περ ἔπεσον -- "right where they fell"

It's not wholly clear to me whether θαφθεῖσι δέ . . . αὐτοῦ ταύτῃ τῇ περ ἔπεσον ("right where they fell") goes with both σφι and τοῖσι πρότερον τελευτήσασι . . . οἴχεσθαι or just with σφι. The datives θαφθεῖσι σφι . . . καὶ τοῖσι are complements of ἐπιγέγραπται -- the epitaphs were inscribed on a monument at their gravesite after they were buried right where they fell, if I understand this correctly.
I thought that they might be objects of ἐπιγέγραπται as well, but ἔπεσον as a finite verb confused me. However, it seems that τελευτήσασι is the main verb, while ἔπεσον is a relative clause (sort of?).

I'm afraid that I still don't really understand how ταύτῃ τῇ περ works, or the relative (?) use of τῷ later.
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:52 pm

I should have written “those who died before those who were sent away by Leonidas left”, as you correctly translated it.

τῇ, τῷ -- Forms with τ- are used as relatives by Herodotus in the oblique cases. This is explained in the dialect notes to the hardbound Harvard University Press 1956 edition of Smyth sec. 338 (338D), which are not reproduced in the on-line version.

LSJ :
C. as RELATIVE PRONOUN in many dialects ; both in nom. sg. masc. ὅ, as “κλῦθί μοι, ὃ χθιζὸς θεὸς ἤλυθες” Od.2.262, cf. 1.300, al. ; “Ἔρως, ὃ κατ᾽ ὀμμάτων στάζεις πόθον” E.Hipp.526(lyr.); “Ἄδωνις, ὃ κἠν Ἀχέροντι φιλεῖται” Theoc.15.86 ; ὃ ἐξορύξη he who banishes him, Schwyzer679.12,25 (Cyprus) ; and in the forms beginning with τ, esp. in Hom. (Od.4.160, al.), Hdt.1.7, al.: also in Ion. Poets, “ἐν τῷ κάθημαι” Archil.87.3, cf. Semon.7.3, Anacr.86 (prob.), Herod.2.64, al.: freq. in Trag., “τῆς” S.OC1258, Tr.381,728, E.Alc.883 (anap.); “τῷ” S.Ph.14 ; “τήν” Id.OC747, Tr.47, El.1144 ; τό Id.OT1427 ; τῶν ib. 1379, Ant.1086.—Never in Com. or Att. Prose :—Ep. gen. sg. “τεῦ” Il.18.192(s.v.l.).
ταύτῃ and τῇ are adverbial: "there where". περ is emphatic.

LSJ οὗτος:
4. dat. fem. ταύτῃ,
a. on this spot, here, ταύτῃ μὲν . . , τῇδε δ᾽ αὖ . . Id.Ph. 1331; “ἀλλ᾽ ἐὰν ταύτῃ γε νικᾷ, ταυτῃὶ πεπλήξεται” Ar.Eq.271, cf. Th. 1221.
LSJ :
VIII. abs. usages of single cases,
1. fem. dat. τῇ, of Place, there, on that spot, here, this way, that way, Il.5.752,858, al.: folld. by ᾗ, 13.52, etc.: also in Prose, “τὸ μὲν τῇ, τὸ δὲ τῇ” X.Ath.2.12.
See also LSJ αὐτοῦ:
A.just there or just here, Hom., etc.; ἐπίσχες αὐτοῦ stop there! Cratin.66:—freq. with the place added, αὐτοῦ ἐνὶ Τροίῃ, μέν᾽ αὐτοῦ τῷδ᾽ ἐνὶ χώρῳ, here in Troy, etc., Il.2.237, Od.10.271; “αὐτοῦ ἔνθα” Il.8.207; που αὐτοῦ ἀγρῶν somewhere there on the farm, Od.4.639; “αὐτοῦ ὑπὲρ κεφαλῆς” 8.68; “αὐτοῦ περὶ τεῖχος” A.Ag.452 (lyr.); αὐτοῦ ταύτῃ in this very place, exactly here, Hdt.1.214, 3.77, 4.135; “αὐτοῦ τῇ περ ἔπεσε” Id.1.30:— so that αὐτοῦ usu. precedes; but “κεῖθι αὐτοῦ” h.Ap.374; “κατ᾽ οἴκους αὐτοῦ” Ar.Pax89; “ἐνθάδ᾽ αὐτοῦ” Sol.36.11, Ar.Pl.1187; “τοῖς ἐνθάδ᾽ αὐτοῦ μὴ κατ᾽ ἄστυ δημόταις” S.OC78.
τελευτησασι is an aorist participle. It can't be aorist indicative because (1) no augment, and (2) the 3rd plur. sigmatic aorist ending is -αν.

The main verb of the sentence is ἐπιγέγραπται. This is the basic structure of the sentence:

θαφθεῖσι δέ σφι . . . καὶ τοῖσι . . . τελευτήσασι . . . ἐπιγέγραπται γράμματα λέγοντα τάδε

πρότερον . . . ἢ <τοὺς> ὑπὸ Λεωνίδεω ἀποπεμφθέντας οἴχεσθαι is adverbial modifying τελευτήσασι.

After rereading this, I'm pretty sure that θαφθεῖσι . . . αὐτοῦ ταύτῃ τῇ περ ἔπεσον modifies both σφι and τοῖσι . . . τελευτήσασι . . . .

"They and those who died before the men who were sent away by Leonidas departed were buried right where they fell, and an epigram reading as follows has been inscribed for them." That's the best I can do in English, which doesn't have the elegant participial resources of Greek. Does the above explanation make it any easier to see how the Greek fits together?

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by mwh » Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:13 pm

To add to Hylander:

Λακεδαιμονίων The Lacedemonians. Greek sometimes dispenses with the article, we don't.

πρὶν ἢ συμμεῖξαί σφεας τοῖσι Μήδοισι. The ἢ goes with the πρὶν. Cf. πρότερον ἢ.

ποιεύμενον = ποιούμενον yes, -εο contracts to -ευ in Ionic, -ου in Attic. Likewise πρός τευ τῶν Τρηχινίων above, τευ = του = τινος.

τὸν δὲ οὐκ ἐκπλαγέντα τούτοισι εἰπεῖν, ἐν ἀλογίῃ ποιεύμενον τὸ τῶν Μήδων πλῆθος, ὡς πάντα σφι ἀγαθὰ ὁ Τρηχίνιος ξεῖνος ἀγγέλλοι, εἰ ἀποκρυπτόντων τῶν Μήδων τὸν ἥλιον ὑπὸ σκιῇ ἔσοιτο πρὸς αὐτοὺς ἡ μάχη καὶ οὐκ ἐν ἡλίῳ.
Syntax: ὡς not “as if” but “that” (=οτι) after εἰπεῖν. Your later “that” is misplaced.
τὸν δὲ ... εἰπεῖν ... ὡς πάντα ... ἀγαθὰ ... ἀγγέλλοι, εἰ ... ὑπὸ σκιῇ ἔσοιτο ... ἡ μάχη.

Leonidas, cf. Brasidas. Would be -ides in Attic, but the Spartan/Doric form of the name is usually kept.

Not “these three hundred.” This is not the movie!

I recommend reading more Herodotus.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:55 am

I looked up Herodotus at the Zoo, which I'll save until I've read a bit more Herodotus. But the Wikipedia entry on the Gaisford Prize was interesting. I downloaded an audiobook of Zuleika Dobson to listen to later.

Sophocles: Electra 804-822

Ηλ. ἆρ’ ὑμὶν ὡς ἀλγοῦσα κὠδυνωμένη
δεινῶς δακρῦσαι κἀπικωκῦσαι δοκεῖ (805)
τὸν υἱὸν ἡ δύστηνος ὧδ’ ὀλωλότα;
ἀλλ’ ἐγγελῶσα φροῦδος. ὢ τάλαιν’ ἐγώ·
Ὀρέστα φίλταθ’, ὥς μ’ ἀπώλεσας θανών.
ἀποσπάσας γὰρ τῆς ἐμῆς οἴχῃ φρενὸς
αἵ μοι μόναι παρῆσαν ἐλπίδων ἔτι, (810)
σὲ πατρὸς ἥξειν ζῶντα τιμωρόν ποτε
κἀμοῦ ταλαίνης. νῦν δὲ ποῖ με χρὴ μολεῖν;
μόνη γάρ εἰμι, σοῦ τ’ ἀπεστερημένη
καὶ πατρός. ἤδη δεῖ με δουλεύειν πάλιν
ἐν τοῖσιν ἐχθίστοισιν ἀνθρώπων ἐμοί, (815)
φονεῦσι πατρός. ἆρά μοι καλῶς ἔχει;
ἀλλ’ οὔ τι μὴν ἔγωγε τοῦ λοιποῦ χρόνου @1
ἔσομαι ξύνοικος, ἀλλὰ τῇδε πρὸς πύλῃ
παρεῖσ’ ἐμαυτὴν ἄφιλος αὐανῶ βίον.
πρὸς ταῦτα καινέτω τις, εἰ βαρύνεται, (820)
τῶν ἔνδον ὄντων· ὡς χάρις μέν, ἢν κτάνῃ,
λύπη δ’, ἐὰν ζῶ· τοῦ βίου δ’ οὐδεὶς πόθος.

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Does a woman feeling pain and grieving appear to you (enclitic ὑμὶν!) to have terribly (over-?) cried and ἐπικωκῦσαι her son, thus destroyed? But I laughed at sense. What a wretch I am, dearest Orestes, whom you have destroyed by dying. For my senses have fled, having scattered, which only of my hopes remained beside me still, that you would sometime come living and honored from father and from wretched me. But now where am I required to wander? For I am alone, deprived of you and father. Already I must serve again among these most hated to me of humans, [the ones] murdering father. Do I do well? But I at least will not [force of οὔ τι μὴν?] be a house-sharer for the rest of time, but I will αὐανῶ life having sent (παρεῖσα is that the participle form?) myself unfriended past this gate. Let someone of those inside καινέτω to these, if he is weighed down. What a grace, if someone murders, and a pain if I live, but of life there is no longing.
Revised:

Does this unfortunate woman feeling pain and suffering appear to you (enclitic ὑμὶν!) to have overmuch cried and lamented her son, thus destroyed? But I mock alone. What a wretch I am, dearest Orestes, whom you have destroyed by dying. For you have departed, torn from my heart, which only of my hopes remained beside me still, that you would sometime come living, an avenger of father [his father, but maybe hers? same throughout] and wretched me. But now where is it necessary for me to wander? For I am alone, deprived of you and father. Already I need to serve again among these most hated to me of humans, the murderers of father. Tell me, do I do well? Someone enters the scene. But I at least I will not in any way be associated [with him] for the rest of time, but Ι have sat myself unfriended by this gate -- I will whither life. Let someone of those inside innovate against these, if he is weighed down. What a grace, if he should murder, and what a pain if I live; but of life there is no longing.

ἀλλ’ οὔ τι μὴν -- Denniston says this marks the entrance of a new character?
πρὸς ταῦτα καινέτω -- "innovate against these" -- make mock of her for sitting there? Is it really καινίζω?
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by mwh » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:40 am

ἆρ’ ὑμὶν No not enclitic, just a metri gratia shortening of ὑμῖν. But phps it shd be enclitic ύμιν.
No time for more.
Oh, καίνω a byform of κτείνω, nothing to do with καινός.
ἀλλ’ ἐγγελῶσα φροῦδος Not "I mock alone"!
Ὀρέστα φίλταθ’, ὥς μ’ ἀπώλεσας θανών. ὥς not “whom”! Exclamatory “how.”
νῦν δὲ ποῖ με χρὴ μολεῖν; Never translate χρὴ by “it is necessary.” As I’m tired of saying.
...

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:15 am

ἆρ’ ὑμὶν ὡς ἀλγοῦσα κὠδυνωμένη
δεινῶς δακρῦσαι κἀπικωκῦσαι δοκεῖ
τὸν υἱὸν ἡ δύστηνος ὧδ’ ὀλωλότα;
ἀλλ’ ἐγγελῶσα φροῦδος.

This refers to Clytaemnestra, the mother of Orestes and Electra, who is relieved and joyful when she hears a false report that her son Orestes, is dead. She and her lover Aegistheus have killed her husband (and of course the father of Electra and Orestes), Agamemnon, on his return from Troy, and she feared that Orestes would come and avenge his father's death.

"Does it look to you like a wretched woman, pained and grieving terribly, wept and wailed for her son who perished thus? No, she went away mocking him."

ἐγγελῶσα is a present participle. φροῦδος means "away", "gone", "somewhere else", "not here"; here it's succinctly used like a verb, "she went away."

ἀποσπάσας γὰρ τῆς ἐμῆς οἴχῃ φρενὸς
αἵ μοι μόναι παρῆσαν ἐλπίδων ἔτι,
σὲ πατρὸς ἥξειν ζῶντα τιμωρόν ποτε
κἀμοῦ ταλαίνης.

οἴχῃ -- "you''re gone", "you're dead"

ἀποσπάσας -- the direct object is understood and refers to ἐλπίδων in the next line: "you're gone, having torn from my heart those hopes which alone I still had" is the meaning but this is tragic diction, syntax and word order. ". . . [those] which alone of hopes I still had [μοι . . . παρῆσαν] . . . "

πατρός -- both Electra's and Orestes' father, Agamemnon.

δουλεύειν -- stronger than just "serve": "be a slave".

"Someone enters the scene." -- maybe in another play, but I don't think here. ἀλλ’ οὔ τι μὴν ἔγωγε -- this does mark a new thought and it's very emphotic, but doesn't necessarily signal the entrance of a new character.

τοῦ λοιποῦ χρόνου -- "for the future"

οὔ τι μὴν ἔγωγε τοῦ λοιποῦ χρόνου ἔσομαι ξύνοικος -- "I will not dwell in the same house"

τῇδε πρὸς πύλῃ παρεῖσ’ ἐμαυτὴν ἄφιλος αὐανῶ βίον -- "I will throw myself down by this gate and wither away my life friendless"

πρὸς ταῦτα means something like "therefore". See LSJ οὗτος VIII.1.b.

βαρύνω -- here metaphorical: "to distress, bother, trouble"

καινέτω τις, εἰ βαρύνεται, τῶν ἔνδον ὄντων· -- "if anyone of those inside the house is troubled [by my sitting here], let him kill me"

ὡς χάρις μέν, ἢν κτάνῃ, λύπη δ’, ἐὰν ζῶ· τοῦ βίου δ’ οὐδεὶς πόθος. -- "what joy if he kills me; [what] pain if I live; no desire for life."

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:54 pm

Thank you for the context. It makes a lot more sense now.

I assumed that the first line was 3rd person, referring to herself, and was confused by the rest. Also, I mistakenly took ἐγγελῶσα as an aorist 1st-person, which would actually have been ἐνεγέλασα.

Thanks for the explanation of πρὸς ταῦτα. Could the πρὸς be taken in its "in addition" sense? I think "what's more" would make sense here.

I misread Denniston on ἀλλὰ μήν (he is discussing its adversative use on page 342)

Image

As you can see, I missed the start of the new paragraph, and read the two parts together. Here is the entire entry.

Image
Image

So like this?

ἆρά μοι καλῶς ἔχει; ἀλλ’ οὔ τι μὴν ἔγωγε τοῦ λοιποῦ χρόνου ἔσομαι ξύνοικος,
Do I do well? Still, not for a bit of the future will I remain in the same house.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:36 pm

ἆρά μοι καλῶς ἔχει; ἀλλ’ οὔ τι μὴν ἔγωγε τοῦ λοιποῦ χρόνου ἔσομαι ξύνοικος

τοῦ λοιποῦ χρόνου -- check LSJ. "For the future" or better "from now on" is the sense here. "I will definitely not dwell in the same house with them from now on."

ἆρά μοι καλῶς ἔχει; -- she's asking with bitter irony if her situation is ok as essentially a slave in the house of those she hates. "Is this a good situation for me?"
Could the πρὸς be taken in its "in addition" sense? I think "what's more" would make sense here.
Usually pros takes the dative in that sense. LSJ πρός:
B. WITH DAT., . . .

III. to express union or addition, once in Hom., ἄασάν μ᾽ ἕταροί τε κακοὶ π. τοῖσί τε ὕπνος and besides them sleep, Od.10.68; “π. τοῖς παροῦσιν ἄλλα” in addition to, A.Pr.323, cf. Pers.531, Xenoph.8.3. Emp.59.3; “ἄλλους π. ἑαυτῷ” Th.1.90; π. ταῖς ἡμετέραις [τριήρεσι] Id.6.90; “δέκα μῆνας π. ἄλλοις πέντε” S.Tr.45; “τρίτος . . π. δέκ᾽ ἄλλαισιν γοναῖς” A.Pr.774; κυβερνήτης π. τῇ σκυτοτομίᾳ in addition to his trade of leather-cutter, Pl.R.397e: freq. with neut. Adjs., π. τῷ νέῳ ἁπαλός besides his youth, Id.Smp.195c, cf. Tht. 185e; “π. τῷ βλαβερῷ καὶ ἀηδέστατον” Id.Phdr.240b; π. τούτοισι besides this, Hdt.2.51, cf. A.Pers.237 (troch.), etc.; rarely in sg., “π. τούτῳ” Hdt.1.31,41; π. τοῖς ἄλλοις besides all the rest, Th.2.61, etc.:—cf. the Advb. usage, infr. D.
LSJ οὗτος

And "What's more" would seem very prosaic and feeble here.
Last edited by Hylander on Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:59 pm

Thank you. I'm sorry, but I still have some more questions, if you don't mind.

I don't understand what τι is doing, which is why I was trying to attach it to τοῦ λοιποῦ χρόνου. Apparently that's not right. What is its force?
Oh, καίνω a byform of κτείνω, nothing to do with καινός.
I thought that this was the likely sense, but the LSJ didn't mention this form in the κτείνω entry, which made me give up on it. Is this something that's too obvious for the LSJ? Clearly it makes the meter work here.
Never translate χρὴ by “it is necessary.” As I’m tired of saying.
Yes, I will try harder to break the habit.
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:12 pm

LSJ πρός:
B. WITH DAT., . . .

III. to express union or addition, once in Hom., ἄασάν μ᾽ ἕταροί τε κακοὶ π. τοῖσί τε ὕπνος and besides them sleep, Od.10.68; “π. τοῖς παροῦσιν ἄλλα” in addition to, A.Pr.323, cf. Pers.531, Xenoph.8.3. Emp.59.3; “ἄλλους π. ἑαυτῷ” Th.1.90; π. ταῖς ἡμετέραις [τριήρεσι] Id.6.90; “δέκα μῆνας π. ἄλλοις πέντε” S.Tr.45; “τρίτος . . π. δέκ᾽ ἄλλαισιν γοναῖς” A.Pr.774; κυβερνήτης π. τῇ σκυτοτομίᾳ in addition to his trade of leather-cutter, Pl.R.397e: freq. with neut. Adjs., π. τῷ νέῳ ἁπαλός besides his youth, Id.Smp.195c, cf. Tht. 185e; “π. τῷ βλαβερῷ καὶ ἀηδέστατον” Id.Phdr.240b; π. τούτοισι besides this, Hdt.2.51, cf. A.Pers.237 (troch.), etc.; rarely in sg., “π. τούτῳ” Hdt.1.31,41; π. τοῖς ἄλλοις besides all the rest, Th.2.61, etc.:—cf. the Advb. usage, infr. D.
I don't understand what τι is doing, which is why I was trying to attach it to τοῦ λοιποῦ χρόνου. Apparently that's not right. What is its force?
See LSJ τις II.14:
τις is pleonast. in such phrases as οὐδέν τι or μηδέν τι, v. supr. 11c.
It's not exactly pleonastic -- it adds emphasis, like "not at all" (though here that wouldn't quite fit).

There's a separate entry in LSJ for καίνω:
καίνω , A.Ag.1562, Ch.886: fut.
A.“κα^νῶ” E.HF1074 (lyr.): aor. 2 “ἔκα^νον” A.Ch.930; inf. κα^νεῖν, Dor. “κανῆν” Theoc.24.92: pf. “κέκονα” S. Fr.1058:—Pass., A.Th.347 (lyr.), E.IT27:—kill, slay, A.Th.630 (lyr.), S. l. c., Timocr.1.9, Theoc.l.c.: once in X., Cyr.4.2.24 (nisi leg. κατακ-, q. v.).

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:27 pm

Isocrates Areopagiticus 21-25

Οἱ γὰρ κατ’ ἐκεῖνον τὸν χρόνον τὴν πόλιν διοικοῦντες κατεστήσαντο πολιτείαν οὐκ ὀνόματι μὲν τῷ κοινοτάτῳ καὶ πραοτάτῳ προσαγορευομένην, ἐπὶ δὲ τῶν πράξεων οὐ τοιαύτην τοῖς ἐντυγχάνουσι φαινομένην, οὐδ’ ἣ τοῦτον τὸν τρόπον ἐπαίδευε τοὺς πολίτας ὥσθ’ ἡγεῖσθαι τὴν μὲν ἀκολασίαν δημοκρατίαν, τὴν δὲ παρανομίαν ἐλευθερίαν, τὴν δὲ παρρησίαν ἰσονομίαν, τὴν δ’ ἐξουσίαν τοῦ ταῦτα ποιεῖν εὐδαιμονίαν, ἀλλὰ μισοῦσα καὶ κολάζουσα τοὺς τοιούτους βελτίους καὶ σωφρονεστέρους ἅπαντας τοὺς πολίτας ἐποίησεν. Μέγιστον δ’ αὐτοῖς συνεβάλετο πρὸς τὸ καλῶς οἰκεῖν τὴν πόλιν, ὅτι δυοῖν ἰσοτήτοιν νομιζομέναιν εἶναι, καὶ τῆς μὲν ταὐτὸν ἅπασιν ἀπονεμούσης, τῆς δὲ τὸ προσῆκον ἑκάστοις, οὐκ ἠγνόουν τὴν χρησιμωτέραν, ἀλλὰ τὴν μὲν τῶν αὐτῶν ἀξιοῦσαν τοὺς χρηστοὺς καὶ τοὺς πονηροὺς ἀπεδοκίμαζον ὡς οὐ δικαίαν οὖσαν, τὴν δὲ κατὰ τὴν ἀξίαν ἕκαστον τιμῶσαν καὶ κολάζουσαν προῃροῦντο καὶ διὰ ταύτης ᾤκουν τὴν πόλιν, οὐκ ἐξ ἁπάντων τὰς ἀρχὰς κληροῦντες, ἀλλὰ τοὺς βελτίστους καὶ τοὺς ἱκανωτάτους ἐφ’ ἕκαστον τῶν ἔργων προκρίνοντες. Τοιούτους γὰρ ἤλπιζον ἔσεσθαι καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους, οἷοί περ ἂν ὦσιν οἱ τῶν πραγμάτων ἐπιστατοῦντες.

Unseen:

For those ordering our city in that time founded a polity that was not defined as the most communal or the gentlest, and in its affairs did not appear as such a thing to those concerned, nor was it teaching this nature to its citizens, that they would think lack of reproof democracy, lawlessness freedom, free speech equality under law, and the permission to do these things happiness, but hating and reproving such things, made all of its citizens better and more temperate. And it brought the greatest contribution to the proper regulation of our city, that with two classes being thought to be exist, one regulating the same to all, the other what is proper to each, that they were not unaware of the better class, but that the one of them that approved both the good and the wicked was disapproved as not being just, but the one honoring and reproving each according to worthiness they preferred and by this ordered our city, not choosing the rulers from among everybody by lot, but selecting the best and and most worthy for each work. For they hoped that the others would come to be the same as whatever sort those were who were being set over affairs.

I think that I was able to understand the words that I didn't know from context here, so I'll leave the unseen version, and just point out where I'm a bit uncertain:

οὐκ ὀνόματι μὲν τῷ κοινοτάτῳ καὶ πραοτάτῳ προσαγορευομένην -- is "defined" right?
τὸ καλῶς οἰκεῖν τὴν πόλιν - "to the proper regulation of our city" and later on I have ᾤκουν τὴν πόλιν as "ordered our city", but I haven't see οἰκέω used like this before, and am not sure.
ὅτι δυοῖν ἰσοτήτοιν νομιζομέναιν εἶναι -- "that with two classes being thought to exist". Genitive absolute. "Class" was a guess for ἰσοτήτοιν, and I hope it's right, because it seems to be the noun under discussion for the next little bit.
ἀπονεμούσης -- "regulating". I was hazy on this one, and guessed from context [EDIT: probably better bestowing or appointing]
ἀπεδοκίμαζον -- "they [dis-]approved". Same
ἔσεσθαι -- future εἶναι, "come to be"? Not γένεσθαι?
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:55 am

Lots of μὲν δὲ, in fact, excessively balanced -- characteristic of Isocrates.

ὀνόματι μὲν is balanced by ἐπὶ δὲ τῶν πράξεων, and both cola are governed by οὐκ

they did not set up the system of government such that in name/theory [ὀνόματι μὲν] it was called [προσαγορευομένην] extremely [superlatives] communitarian [maybe "communistic"?] and easy-going but in actual practice [ἐπὶ δὲ τῶν πράξεων] did not appear such to those who encountered it

τοῦτον τὸν τρόπον . . . ὥσθ’ -- "in such a way as to": nor did it educate its citizens in such a way as to consider . . .

παρρησίαν -- not "free speech", but something like "the ability to engage in abusive and insolent speech"

μισοῦσα καὶ κολάζουσα τοὺς τοιούτους -- "despising and chastising such people" (not "things")

Μέγιστον δ’ αὐτοῖς συνεβάλετο πρὸς τὸ καλῶς οἰκεῖν τὴν πόλιν -- "the greatest contribution made for them [the citizens] to the proper regulation of the city was the fact that" (this is not quite syntactically on all fours with the Greek, but συνεβάλετο must be middle, not passive, but literally, "the fact that . . . made the greatest contribution . . . ").

δυοῖν ἰσοτήτοιν νομιζομέναιν εἶναι -- two types of equality [ἰσο-τής] being thought to exist (maybe "distributive justice" captures the idea of ἰσοτής as used here better)

καὶ τῆς μὲν ταὐτὸν ἅπασιν ἀπονεμούσης, -- the one distributing [ἀπονεμούσης] the same [portion] to all

τῆς δὲ τὸ προσῆκον ἑκάστοις, [ἀπονεμούσης] -- the other [distributing] to each his due

τὴν χρησιμωτέραν -- the more useful/practical type of equality

οὐκ ἠγνόουν -- they did not ignore

ἀλλὰ τὴν μὲν τῶν αὐτῶν ἀξιοῦσαν τοὺς χρηστοὺς καὶ τοὺς πονηροὺς ἀπεδοκίμαζον ὡς οὐ δικαίαν οὖσαν -- but instead they rejected [ἀπεδοκίμαζον] as unjust the type of equality that considers both the best and the worst deserving of the same things

τὴν δὲ κατὰ τὴν ἀξίαν ἕκαστον τιμῶσαν καὶ κολάζουσαν προῃροῦντο -- and they chose instead the type of equality that honors and chastises each according to his worth

διὰ ταύτης -- maybe "on this principle"

τοὺς ἱκανωτάτους -- most capable

Τοιούτους γὰρ ἤλπιζον ἔσεσθαι καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους, οἷοί περ ἂν ὦσιν οἱ τῶν πραγμάτων ἐπιστατοῦντες -- for they expected that whoever else may govern the affairs [of the city] will also be such.
Last edited by Hylander on Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:22 pm, edited 9 times in total.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:09 am

I think you would do better not to attempt these as "sight translations". A wrong guess about a word, and the entire translation can devolve into incoherence, which is not a helpful learning experience. Better to use a dictionary, looking up unfamiliar words (even if you think you know what they mean) and aim at getting it right the first time.

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