Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by mwh » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:26 pm

By Plutarch’s time μη is often used where earlier Greek would use ου, particularly in indirect speech. It’s just a shift in usage over time, nothing to do with emphasis. K-G II 511.3c, Mayser Gr.Gr. II ii 551, 562.

πλοίου προσφερομένου etc. is gen.abs. The set-up comes first. “No surprise that the Caunians [not Caunusians], when a boat … pursued by pirates, reportedly don’t …”
διαπυνθανομένους present not aorist, as throughout this first part.
παρεῖναι καὶ συγκαταγαγεῖν τὸ πλοῖον something like “let them in and helped them dock the boat.”
καταγω (ναυν) is to put in to land (from the sea), aναγω (ναυν) to put out to sea (from land).

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:41 pm

Euripides: Iphigenia at Aulis 640-661

Ιφ. ὦ πάτερ, ἐσεῖδόν σ’ ἀσμένη πολλῷ χρόνῳ. (640)
Αγ. καὶ γὰρ πατὴρ σέ· τόδ’ ἴσον ὑπὲρ ἀμφοῖν λέγεις.
Ιφ. χαῖρ’· εὖ δέ μ’ ἀγαγὼν πρὸς σ’ ἐποίησας, πάτερ.
Αγ. οὐκ οἶδ’ ὅπως φῶ τοῦτο καὶ μὴ φῶ, τέκνον.
Ιφ. ἔα·
ὡς οὐ βλέπεις ἕκηλον ἄσμενός μ’ ἰδών.
Αγ. πόλλ’ ἀνδρὶ βασιλεῖ καὶ στρατηλάτῃ μέλει. (645)
Ιφ. παρ’ ἐμοὶ γενοῦ νῦν, μὴ ’πὶ φροντίδας τρέπου.
Αγ. ἀλλ’ εἰμὶ παρὰ σοὶ νῦν ἅπας κοὐκ ἄλλοθι.
Ιφ. μέθες νυν ὀφρὺν ὄμμα τ’ ἔκτεινον φίλον.
Αγ. ἰδού, γέγηθά σ’ ὡς γέγηθ’ ὁρῶν, τέκνον.
Ιφ. κἄπειτα λείβεις δάκρυ’ ἀπ’ ὀμμάτων σέθεν; (650)
Αγ. μακρὰ γὰρ ἡμῖν ἡ ’πιοῦσ’ ἀπουσία.
Ιφ. †οὐκ οἶδ’ ὅ τι φῇς, οὐκ οἶδα, φίλτατ’ ἐμοὶ πάτερ.†
Αγ. συνετὰ λέγουσα μᾶλλον εἰς οἶκτόν μ’ ἄγεις.
Ιφ. ἀσύνετά νυν ἐροῦμεν, εἰ σέ γ’ εὐφρανῶ.
Αγ. παπαῖ· τὸ σιγᾶν οὐ σθένω, σὲ δ’ ᾔνεσα. (655)
Ιφ. μέν’, ὦ πάτερ, κατ’ οἶκον ἐπὶ τέκνοις σέθεν.
Αγ. θέλω γε, τὸ θέλειν δ’ οὐκ ἔχων ἀλγύνομαι.
Ιφ. ὄλοιντο λόγχαι καὶ τὰ Μενέλεω κακά.
Αγ. ἄλλους ὀλεῖ πρόσθ’ ἃ ἐμὲ διολέσαντ’ ἔχει.
Ιφ. ὡς πολὺν ἀπῆσθα χρόνον ἐν Αὐλίδος μυχοῖς. (660)
Αγ. καὶ νῦν γέ μ’ ἴσχει δή τι μὴ στέλλειν στρατόν.

Unseen draft:

Iph. Father, happily I saw you a long time ago.
Ag. And your father saw you. This thing you speak applies equally to both of us.
Iph. Greetings, you did well to have brought me to you, father.
Ag. I do not know how I could say this and not say it, child.
Iph. Let it be. For you do not look <well (?)> happy to see me.
Ag. There are many matters of concern for a king and general.
Iph. Be by my side now, do not turn to your concerns.
Ag. But I am now by your side entirely and nowhere else.
Iph. Now relax your brow and your <...>.
Ag. Look, I am gladdened at you as I see you gladdened, child.
Iph. And after you wipe/drip tears from your eyes?
Ag. For the present parting is long for us.
Iph. I do not know what you say, I do not know, my beloved father.
Ag. You rather speak sense leading me into the room.
Iph. We now speak nonsense, if you I am <serious ?> to you.
Ag. Oh no -- I cannot stand the silence, and I have praised you.
Iph. Wait, father, at home with your children.
Ag. How I wish it, the wanting but not having pains me.
Iph. Perish the captains and Menelaus' evil
Ag. It will destroy others before he has this that has destroyed me.
Iph. How great a time you were away in Aulis <city>.
Ag. And now it <strengthens> me somewhat not to <care> for the army.

With a dictionary:

Iph. Father, happily I beheld you a long time ago.
Ag. And your father you. This thing you speak applies equally to both of us.
Iph. Greetings, you did well to have brought me to you, father.
Ag. I do not know how I could say this and not say it, child.
Iph. Ah! As you do not look at ease or to be gladly seeing me.
Ag. There are many matters of concern for a king and general.
Iph. Be by my side now, do not turn to your concerns.
Ag. But I am now by your side entirely and nowhere else.
Iph. Then relax your brow and look forward with your eyes.
Ag. Look, I rejoice in you as you I see you rejoicing, child.
Iph. I do not know what you say, I don't know, beloved father to me.
Ag. Rather saying something sensible, you lead me to compassion.
Iph. Then we will speak senseless things, if it will only gladden you.
Ag. Alas, I am not strong enough for the silence, and I praised you.
Iph. Wait, father, at home with your children.
Ag. How I wish it, the wanting but not having pains me.
Iph. May the spears perish and the evil of Meneleus!
Ag. He will destroy others before he has what has destroyed me.
Iph. He long you were away in the recesses of Aulis!
Ag. And now something restrains me so I cannot get the army ready.
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:31 am

πολλῷ χρόνῳ -- "with much time." This means "after a long time"

τόδ’ ἴσον ὑπὲρ ἀμφοῖν λέγεις.-- not sure from your translation whether you see how this fits together: "You say this equal(ly) on behalf of both (of us).

ὅπως φῶ τοῦτο καὶ μὴ φῶ - "I don't know how I am to say yes to/agree with this and say no/disagree" See LSJ φημι III

ὡς οὐ βλέπεις ἕκηλον ἄσμενός μ’ ἰδών -- "how you do not look comfortable [though] seeing me gladly

ἔκτεινον -- "stretch out", "relax"

γέγηθά σ’ ὡς γέγηθ’ ὁρῶν -- "I rejoice seeing you [just as much] as I rejoice", "I rejoice to the extent that I rejoice" It's intentionally ambiguous on A's part. To her it's meant to sound as if he's saying "I really do rejoice very much seeing you", but in fact he knows that he's going to have to slaughter her as a human sacrifice, so he's really saying "i really don't rejoice at all to see you.."

συνετὰ λέγουσα μᾶλλον εἰς οἶκτόν μ’ ἄγεις. -- "By speaking sense you lead me even more into compassion."

κἄπειτα -- LSJ ἔπειτα: "in Att. freq. to introduce emphatic questions, why then . . ?"

μακρὰ γὰρ ἡμῖν ἡ ’πιοῦσ’ ἀπουσία. "Our coming separation will be long."

τὸ σιγᾶν οὐ σθένω -- "I'm not strong enough to keep silent/I can't bear keeping silent."

σὲ δ’ ᾔνεσα -- I think this means "I thank you"; see LSJ.

μέν’, -- here "stay", not "wait."

θέλω γε, τὸ θέλειν δ’ οὐκ ἔχων ἀλγύνομαι. -- "I want to [θέλω γε], but/and I'm pained by not having/being able to have the wanting/what I want." θέλω usually means "to be willing" but here I think "want" is wanted.

τὰ Μενέλεω κακά -- "Spears and Menelaus' troubles be damned." That's the sense, but the play on ὄλοιντο - ὀλεῖ - διολέσαντ’ doesn't work in English.

ἄλλους ὀλεῖ πρόσθ’ ἃ ἐμὲ διολέσαντ’ ἔχει -- The subject of ὀλεῖ is ἃ ἐμὲ διολέσαντ’ ἔχει. διολέσαντ’ ἔχει -- see Smyth 599b, 1963: equivalent to a periphrastic perfect. "The things that have destroyed me will destroy others before then."

καὶ νῦν γέ μ’ ἴσχει δή τι μὴ στέλλειν στρατόν -- 'and now something is holding me back from sending/launching the army."

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:23 am

Is τὸ θέλειν for its object, “what I want,” normal? τὸ θέλειν has to be the object of ἔχων I suppose.
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:40 am

τὸ θέλειν has to be the object of ἔχων I suppose.
Yes. This is poetry, not prose. It pushes syntax to the limits; it's compressed and epigrammatic; and precisely because it's not "normal" (whatever that is), it's poignant and striking and effective.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by dikaiopolis » Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:57 pm

On the first line, ἐσεῖδον is best translated as present. This is the so-called “dramatic” or “tragic” aorist, restricted to the 1st person. “I’m so glad to see you after such a long time!” Cf. line 655.

παρ’ ἐμοὶ γενοῦ νῦν: παρ’ ἐμοὶ refers more to mental or emotional closeness than “by my side.” “Be with me”

γέγηθά σ’ ὡς γέγηθ’ ὁρῶν. Like Hylander said, something like “I’m really happy to see you.” It’s foreboding stuff, like Agam.’s lines at the end of this passage. Agam.'s words in this exchange are perfectly ambiguous—ἀμφίβολος in Greek scholarly parlance.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:18 pm

γέγηθά σ’ ὡς γέγηθ’ ὁρῶν. It took me a while to see what was going on here. "I''m as happy to see you as I am happy." The ambiguity: "I'm so happy to see you." vs. "I'm really not happy at all to see you, because I'm going to have to slaughter you."

Is it just me, or is there a larger than usual number of resolutions of long syllables into two shorts in this passage , which, if my perception is accurate, gives expression to the underlying tension and edginess?


incidentally, some lines have been omitted and are not reflected in the line numeration above.
Last edited by Hylander on Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:32 pm

The TLG version of this passage has some lines from other sections. I assume that some surgery has been done on one or the other of them.

ἰδού, γέγηθά σ’ ὡς γέγηθ’ ὁρῶν, τέκνον.

Is that second comma misplaced?
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:41 pm

Surgery has been done on the passage set for sight translation.
Is that second comma misplaced?
No, τέκνον is vocative. "I'm as happy as I am happy seeing you, my child." "I'm happy to the extent I'm happy seeing you,, my child." Deliberately obscure and evasive and ambiguous.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:47 pm

I’m saying that it would work better taken as an accusative object of ορων and provide a more intelligible sense to the ως phrase.
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:11 pm

If that were possible, it would eliminate the dramatic ambiguity and turn the line into mere padding at a moment of high tension.. These one-line exchanges, stichomythy, occur at highly charged moments like this.

But LSJ doesn't cite any instance of γηθέω with a person as an accusative object.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:30 pm

I’m confused then. Isn’t the first σ’ accusative? Or what is elided there?

Here is the OCT text that the the unseen version is taken from. There is a lot of apparatus there, and I don’t understand all of it: https://archive.org/details/euripidisfa ... i/page/317

Apparently the manuscript version of this line is ιδου γεγηθ εως γεγηθα σ ορων τεκνον, if I’m reading it correctly, and our version is from “Musgrave”, presumably to get rid of that weird εως.
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:12 pm

Yes, the correction is attributable to Musgrave (1778). The first accusative σ’ is the object of ὁρῶν..

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by mwh » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:21 pm

Musgrave’s emendation is palmary (ϲωϲ misread at εωϲ, σε then added to provide the requisite object for ορων), and we should regard it as certain. Joel, it’s shocking that you wanted to take τεκνον as accusative, which is almost as bad as your previous ungrammatical interpretation (perhaps your worst error). You should listen to Hylander. γεγηθα σ’ ορων “I am glad seeing you.” γεγηθα ως γεγηθα lit. “I am glad as (i.e. in the way that) I am glad.” Hylander explained the ambiguity in his first post. Ag formulates his “gladness” in such as way that his poor deluded daughter will misunderstand. The audience knows what he means, Iphigeneia doesn’t (a special form of dramatic irony). He wants to spare her (and himself) as long as possible. It’s all very Euripidean.

Resolutions. I haven’t looked up the figures, but Euripides’ plays have a progressively higher incidence of resolution over the course of his career, and the IA is one of his very latest, produced along with the Bacchae only after his death. There do seem rather an exceptional number of resolutions over this passage (including the split resolution after the caesura in 641), and that may possibly raise the emotive level a bit. But anyone reading this passage without knowing its date would be able to tell on metrical grounds alone (let alone the nature of the dialogue) that it’s late Euripides.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:41 pm

Joel, I'm not surprised that you found this line puzzling, because I did too. I even looked at a couple of translations before I realized what is going on.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by mwh » Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:44 pm

Joel, I’m not surprised either, and I’m sorry if I sounded too harsh. Think of it as a good cop bad cop routine, with me as the bad cop. But how could you have thought that γέγηθά σ’ ὡς γέγηθ’ ὁρῶν meant “I rejoice in you as you I see you rejoicing" (my italics)?—but if that was your worst avoidable error, as I think it was, you’re not doing badly, especially in view of your evident unfamiliarity with the norms of tragic dialogue (and ως can be an exceptionally tricky word). But then your subsequently insisting on τεκνον as accusative, in defiance of Hylander’s explanation and all common sense, seemed almost willfully bad reading. Not many have his patience. Let's not abuse it.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:11 pm

No worries. I would just like to improve my Greek, and I think it is more than kind for all of you to correct my errors here gratis. It wouldn’t be hard to pay a large amount in tuition for teachers not nearly as competent.

Now that I see that σε goes with ορων, and that γηθειν doesn’t take an accusative person, everything is obvious. Before I had read ως γεγηθ’ ορων τεκνον as “as I/one rejoices seeing a child”. That is, the ως of similies with the aor. The γεγηθειν ιδων τινα was something that I saw a lot in Homer, and I expected it here (but should also have been more alert to the pre-placement of σε). But again, it’s not worthwhile trying to explain error.
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:09 am

Before I had read ως γεγηθ’ ορων τεκνον as “as I/one rejoices seeing a child”.
You should ask yourself how that would make sense and how it would fit in this dialogue. These aren't one-off, atomistic sentences from an elementary textbook. I think that if you try to make sense of these passages set for translation as continuous and coherent texts, as you would reading any text in English, your hit rate will improve. I'm not sure you do that as much as you should, because your final efforts at translation don't always yield coherent English texts.

Ask yourself: does this make sense in English? Does this seem logical? If not, if it sounds strange in English, you should go back and rethink the Greek.

The ultimate objective, of course, is to get to a point where the Greek makes coherent sense to you without the need for translation.

One more point, and this related to what I wrote above. I'm not sure that your approach to these texts -- first making a written translation without looking up words you don't know and then making another written translation looking up the unknown words -- is serving you well, because I think you tend to lock yourself into interpretations of the Greek in the first go-through and then fill in the blanks. I think that if you were to first read through the text to get a sense of what it's about and see what you can make of it without translating, and then go through it looking up words you don't know as you go through it a second time to make a written translation, you would not be so tightly locked into pre-conceived translations and you would do better at reaching an accurate understanding of the Greek. As I've mentioned before, these texts are probably aimed at students who have had more experience with Greek than you, and have been reading Greek longer.. Attempting them as sight translations is not necessarily helpful to you. But they seem to be a good way to expose yourself to continuous passages in a variety of styles and registers.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:34 pm

My process with these Unseens has been to read through the text a half dozen times or more, until it makes sense, mentally noting the words that I don’t understand, and what they seem to be doing in the sentence. Then I write down my understanding at that point. And then I go through look up words that I had guessed at or did not understand.

Once you and mwh correct any faults, I read through the Greek a few more times, making sure that I’ve got it. I revisit them a couple times over the next few days. This has already been helpful to me, and has made me more attentive to places where I’m sloppy.

This particular passage was very hard for me. I couldn’t quite tell where it fit dramatically — though I knew the broad outline of the story — if in this scene Agamemnon already planned to sacrifice his daughter or not, or if she knew about it or not. I still don’t quite understand the mechanics of the meeting. Was it a reunion after a long parting, or was she along with the campaign in Aulis? (Aulis was where they had the vision with the snake eating the birds and getting turned to stone by Zeus while they sacrificied hecatombs, I believe, from my Iliad reading.). Was the rest of his household along too?

In December it will have been five years since I started learning Greek, and at some point I need to stop relying on my beginer status to avoid hard things.
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:53 pm

Thucydides 5.8.1-4
ὁ δὲ Βρασίδας εὐθὺς ὡς εἶδε κινουμένους τοὺς Ἀθηναίους, καταβὰς καὶ αὐτὸς ἀπὸ τοῦ Κερδυλίου ἐσέρχεται ἐς τὴν Ἀμφίπολιν. καὶ ἐπέξοδον μὲν καὶ ἀντίταξιν οὐκ ἐποιήσατο πρὸς τοὺς Ἀθηναίους, δεδιὼς τὴν αὑτοῦ παρασκευὴν καὶ νομίζων ὑποδεεστέρους εἶναι, οὐ τῷ πλήθει (ἀντίπαλα γάρ πως ἦν), ἀλλὰ τῷ ἀξιώματι (τῶν γὰρ Ἀθηναίων ὅπερ ἐστράτευε καθαρὸν ἐξῆλθε καὶ Λημνίων καὶ Ἰμβρίων τὸ κράτιστον), τέχνῃ δὲ παρεσκευάζετο ἐπιθησόμενος. εἰ γὰρ δείξειε τοῖς ἐναντίοις τό τε πλῆθος καὶ τὴν ὅπλισιν ἀναγκαίαν οὖσαν τῶν μεθ’ ἑαυτοῦ, οὐκ ἂν ἡγεῖτο μᾶλλον περιγενέσθαι ἢ ἄνευ προόψεώς τε αὐτῶν καὶ μὴ ἀπὸ τοῦ ὄντος καταφρονήσεως. ἀπολεξάμενος οὖν αὐτὸς πεντήκοντα καὶ ἑκατὸν ὁπλίτας καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους Κλεαρίδᾳ προστάξας ἐβουλεύετο ἐπιχειρεῖν αἰφνιδίως πρὶν ἀπελθεῖν τοὺς Ἀθηναίους, οὐκ ἂν νομίζων αὐτοὺς ὁμοίως ἀπολαβεῖν αὖθις μεμονωμένους, εἰ τύχοι ἐλθοῦσα αὐτοῖς ἡ βοήθεια.
Unseen version.

But Brasidus as soon as he saw the Athenians in motion, even himself went down from Kerdylios and went into Amphipolis. And he did not make a sortie (?) or counter-formation against the Athenians, fearing his own preparation and thinking his men were lacking. Not in number (for there seemed to be as many (?)), but in worthiness/equipment. For what part of the Athenians that was campaigning close in (?) went out, and the best of the Lemnions and the Imbrions. But he was preparing tο be attacked with a trick. For if he were to show the facing army the size of his force with the armament being lacking, he would not be thought to be more in strength than if without any sight of them and without any consideration of what was really there. Therefore having picked out 150 hoplites and having assigned the others to Klearidus, he planned to attack suddenly before the Athenians moved out, thinking that they would not in the same manner leave behind and be attacked (?) again, if help happened to have come.

Revision:

But Brasidus as soon as he saw the Athenians in motion, went himself down from Kerdylios and went into Amphipolis. And he did not make a sortie or counter-formation against the Athenians, fearing his own preparation and thinking his men were lacking. Not in number (for there seemed to be as many), but in quality. For, what part of the Athenians which campaigned, that was of pure blood, went out, and the best of the Lemnions and the Imbrions. But he was preparing to attack with a trick. For if he were to show the facing army the size of his force with the armament being lacking, he would not be thought to be more in strength than without any sight of them and without any consideration of what was really there. Therefore having picked out 150 hoplites and having assigned the others to Klearidus, he planned to attack suddenly before the Athenians departed, thinking that they would not in the same manner split their forces and be isolated again, in case help happened to have come to them [Klearidus’ forces].
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by mwh » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:44 pm

Brasidas, not Brasidus. He’s a Spartan, consistently with the Doric ending of his name, -ίδας not –ίδης.

I’ll comment on the trickiest part of this, οὐκ ἂν ἡγεῖτο μᾶλλον περιγενέσθαι ἢ ἄνευ προόψεώς τε αὐτῶν καὶ μὴ ἀπὸ τοῦ ὄντος καταφρονήσεως.
ἡγεῖτο is “he thought”—it’s not passive.
The αν (as well as the negative) applies not to ηγειτο but to περιγενεσθαι, so it’s not “he’d not be thinking that he came out on top,” as it looks to be, but “he thought that he wouldn’t come out on top.” (περιγενεσθαι represents aor.optative.) This is regular Greek idiom. Cf. the last line of the piece, οὐκ ἂν νομίζων αὐτοὺς ὁμοίως ἀπολαβεῖν …, where you rightly attached the ουκ αν to απολαβειν (again representing aor.opt.).

μᾶλλον περιγενέσθαι ἢ ἄνευ προόψεώς τε αὐτῶν καὶ μὴ ἀπὸ τοῦ ὄντος καταφρονήσεως is where it gets tricky. Brasidas thinks he has a better chance of surviving/succeeding if the Athenians&allies don’t get an advance look (προοψις) at his forces. He wants to fool them into thinking that his forces are stronger than they really are. If they realized how inferior his forces are they’d be contemptuous of them and wouldn’t hesitate to take them on. Thuc. expresses himself very harshly here. Usually his narrative is reasonably straightforward, unlike his speeches, but this is an exceptionally knotty sentence, Thucydides at his most rebarbative. You have to really wrestle with it.

Lit. “He thought he wouldn’t rather [i.e. be more likely to] succeed than without prior sight of them and not from contempt for the actuality [του οντος; i.e. the inferiority of his forces].” That’s to say (I think!), he thought he’d be more likely to succeed if [the enemy] didn’t see them ahead of time and [thus] feel contempt for their actual strength [which is weaker than B wants the enemy to believe].

Other details:
(ἀντίπαλα γάρ πως ἦν) “for they were (just about) evenly matched” (numerically).

οὐκ ἂν νομίζων αὐτοὺς ὁμοίως ἀπολαβεῖν αὖθις μεμονωμένους
The subject of απολαβειν is the same as the subject of νομιζων, i.e. Brasidas; αυτους is object. “thinking that he wouldn’t catch them (cut them off) similarly isolated a second time”
εἰ τύχοι ἐλθοῦσα αὐτοῖς ἡ βοήθεια. ει is just “if”: “if reinforcements came”; he wouldn’t get another chance “if they happened to get (succeeded in getting) help.” αυτοις is the Athenians&allies, like αυτους above.

The rest is pretty good. I think you are improving.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:46 pm

Thanks. I am rarely tripped up by οὐκ ἔφη and the like, but οὐκ ἂν ἡγεῖτο got me, as you saw. I should have recognized ἀπολαβεῖν "cut off" from Xenophon. Also I simply assumed αὐτοὺς as subject without thinking, and figured that there was another unnamed general being discussed.

Aristophanes Clouds 1278 - 1297

ΣΤΡΕΨΙΑΔΗΣ ΑΜΥΝΙΑΣ

Στ. κάτειπέ νυν, (1278,bis) πότερα νομίζεις καινὸν αἰεὶ τὸν Δία (1279) ὕειν ὕδωρ ἑκάστοτ’, ἢ τὸν ἥλιον (1280) ἕλκειν κάτωθεν ταὐτὸ τοῦθ’ ὕδωρ πάλιν; Αμ. οὐκ οἶδ’ ἔγωγ’ ὁπότερον, οὐδέ μοι μέλει. Στ. πῶς οὖν ἀπολαβεῖν τἀργύριον δίκαιος εἶ, εἰ μηδὲν οἶσθα τῶν μετεώρων πραγμάτων; Αμ. ἀλλ’ εἰ σπανίζεις ἀργυρίου, τὸν γοῦν τόκον (1285) ἀπόδοτε. Στ. τοῦτο δ’ ἔσθ’, ὁ τόκος, τί θηρίον; (1286,bis) Αμ. τί δ’ ἄλλο γ’ ἢ κατὰ μῆνα καὶ καθ’ ἡμέραν (1287) πλέον πλέον τἀργύριον αἰεὶ γίγνεται ὑπορρέοντος τοῦ χρόνου; Στ. καλῶς λέγεις. (1289,bis) τί δῆτα; τὴν θάλαττάν ἐσθ’ ὅτι πλείονα (1290) νυνὶ νομίζεις ἢ πρὸ τοῦ; Αμ. μὰ Δί’, ἀλλ’ ἴσην. @1 (1291,bis) οὐ γὰρ δίκαιον πλείον’ εἶναι. (1292) Στ. κᾆτα πῶς (1292,bis) αὕτη μέν, ὦ κακόδαιμον, οὐδὲν γίγνεται (1293) ἐπιρρεόντων τῶν ποταμῶν πλείων, σὺ δὲ ζητεῖς ποιῆσαι τἀργύριον πλέον τὸ σόν; (1295) οὐκ ἀποδιώξει σαυτὸν ἀπὸ τῆς οἰκίας; φέρε μοι τὸ κέντρον. Αμ. ταῦτ’ ἐγὼ μαρτύρομαι. (1297,bis)

Draft:

Strepsiadus Amynias

ST: And tell me then whether you think that Zeus always rains new water each time, or that he drags the sun below to rain this same water again?
AM: I certainly don't know which, and don't care.
ST: Then how do you justly receive payment, if you know nothing of matters meteorological?
AM: But if you lack money at least pay the interest.
ST: This "interest" is what sort of animal?
AM: What else indeed but from month and from day the money that is being birthed more and more as time flows by?
ST: Beautifully said. Does it signify? Do you think the sea is fuller right now that it was before?
AM: By Zeus, rather it is equal. For it would not be well-ordered to be more.
ST: And how then, is it that this, you scoundrel, is becoming not at all fuller, with the rivers flowing in, but you seek to make the money that is yours to be more? Won't you chase yourself out of my house? Bring me the poker.
AM: I am witness to that!

Very fun! I don't think this needs a revision as I didn't have any vocabulary troubles. I perhaps wrongly assume that 1287 is supposed to be a pun about τόκος offspring/interest being born from month and day, but literally "monthly and daily becoming more and more." The TLG version that I pasted above confused me with σπανίζετ᾽ in line 1285, until I checked the Bowen version again, which has σπανίζεις. TLG also had Χρ for Αμ.

I came across another interest quote from Aristophanes last night while reading Plato:
ὦ πότνι’ Εἰλήθυα, ἐπίσχες τοῦ τόκου,
ἕως ἂν εἰς ὅσιον ἀπέλθω χωρίον.
Mistress Eilethya, stop the interest until I can depart to the communal farm.

I'm much less sure about ὅσιον χωρίον meaning "communal farm." The scholia was making the point that it meant public and not sacred money.
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by mwh » Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:02 pm

Eileithuia is the goddess of childbirth, and that's all that τοκος means here, there's no play on words. A οσιον χωριον is (despite appearances) a non-sacred place, one where it's OK to give birth, as distinct from a ιερον place such as a sanctuary, where it's not. It's a quote from the Lysistrata.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:24 am

StrepsiadES!

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by dikaiopolis » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:00 am

ἀλλ’ εἰ σπανίζεις ἀργυρίου, τὸν γοῦν τόκον (1285)
ἀπόδοτε.

The confusion (also in the mss) stems from the switch in number between σπανίζεις and απόδοτε.

What does “does it signify?” signify? τί δῆτα=what then?, what do you think about this, then?

On the IA passage:
jeidsath wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:34 pm
I couldn’t quite tell where it fit dramatically — though I knew the broad outline of the story — if in this scene Agamemnon already planned to sacrifice his daughter or not, or if she knew about it or not. I still don’t quite understand the mechanics of the meeting. Was it a reunion after a long parting, or was she along with the campaign in Aulis?
As I mentioned before, I think you’d be doing yourself a favor by learning these nuts and bolts of Greek literature as you go. The passage from IA could be a good incentive to go read the play in English (if not Greek) or at least a short plot summary. (It’s a good read, I promise!)

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by mwh » Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:50 am

First Brasidus (where I actually mentioned –ιδης), now Strepsiadus. Joel, you can’t realize how cringemaking these are.

I enjoyed dikaiopolis’ What does it signify? note, once I’d seen Joel’s translation. Yes, τί δῆτα moves straight on to Streps’s next Socratic-type question. First he posed the rain problem (ποτερα νομιζεις …; 1279), now he poses the ocean one (νομιζεις; again)—which allows him to exploit the contradictory phenomenon of interest.

At 1287-89, I really think “is being birthed” is overdoing it for simple γιγνεται! Amunias is offering a perfectly straight definition of interest (“What other than the money steadily increases?”, note the bad grammar). There’s no play on words in it, just as there isn’t in the Eileithuia snippet. Businessmen don’t deal in puns, and nor do fake-pregnant women.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:10 pm

you can’t realize how cringemaking these are.
To get a sense of the cringeworthiness, try saying Thucydidus, Euripidus.

Α propos of nothing: When our Greek driver/guide, who generally spoke very English well, referred to Thoo-kee-THEE-thees, I had to translate for the four other members of our party. They thought the modern Greek pronunciation was funny. I thought their need for translation was funny. The modern Greek pronunciation is of course much closer to the original ancient Greek, and really not too distant from the way his name has been pronounced in Greek since Roman times.

More pointless anecdotes about my trip to Greece (and in particular, Aegina) in the Civilization of the Greeks and Romans forum.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:35 pm

I looked for some summary of the Greek -> Latin -> English rules for names, but couldn’t find anything in Smyth. It’s a bit difficult for me, not knowing the middle language.
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by mwh » Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:01 pm

You don’t need Latin for Brasidas and Strepsiades. And actually, you can always just transliterate the Greek. Kleon not Cleon, etc. etc. That’s become rather fashionable in fact. So it’s even ok to write Thoukudides, though with familiar names it’s still customary to use the familiar latinized forms. (In English, that is; not in other modern languages.)
Latin substitutes C for Κ, a letter scarcely used in Latin. Other differences: declensional latinization, e.g. –us for–ος (but not for –ης!), sometimes -o for –ων (e.g. Plato, Crito, but Cleon); y for υ and u for ου (Thucydides), ae for αι (Aeschylus), a few others, all minor.

Hylander wrote:our Greek driver/guide, who generally spoke very English well.
Like Hylander, in fact.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Aetos » Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:59 am

Here are the appropriate sections on transliteration from Pharr:

https://imgur.com/a/CAjzEhp

It's certainly not complete, but it's (slightly) better than nothing. I took a look through Smyth and couldn't find anything either. Surprising.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:44 pm

I've been busy since going back to work. Sorry that it has been so long!

Dio Chrysostom: Euboean Discourse (7) 53 - 56

ταῦτα δὲ ἐμοῦ λέγοντος ἀνίσταταί τις ἐκ μέσων· κἀγὼ πρὸς ἐμαυτὸν ἐνεθυμήθην ὅτι ἄλλος τοιοῦτος τυχὸν ἐμοῦ καταψευσόμενος. ὁ δὲ εἶπεν, Ἄνδρες, ἐγὼ πάλαι τοῦτον ἀμφιγνοῶν ἠπίστουν ὅμως. ἐπεὶ δὲ σαφῶς αὐτὸν ἔγνωκα, δεινόν μοι δοκεῖ, μᾶλλον δὲ ἀσεβές, μὴ εἰπεῖν ἃ συνεπίσταμαι μηδ’ ἀποδοῦναι λόγῳ χάριν, ἔργῳ τὰ μέγιστα εὖ παθών. εἰμὶ δέ, ἔφη, πολίτης, ὡς ἴστε, καὶ ὅδε, δείξας τὸν παρακαθήμενον, καὶ ὃς ἐπανέστη· ἐτύχομεν δὲ πλέοντες ἐν τῇ Σωκλέους νηὶ τρίτον ἔτος. καὶ διαφθαρείσης τῆς νεὼς περὶ τὸν Καφηρέα παντελῶς ὀλίγοι τινὲς ἐσώθημεν ἀπὸ πολλῶν. τοὺς μὲν οὖν πορφυρεῖς ἀνέλαβον· εἶχον γὰρ αὐτῶν τινες ἀργύριον ἐν φασκωλίοις. ἡμεῖς δὲ γυμνοὶ παντελῶς ἐκπεσόντες δι’ ἀτραποῦ τινος ἐβαδίζομεν, ἐλπίζοντες εὑρήσειν σκέπην τινὰ ποιμένων ἢ βουκόλων, κινδυνεύοντες ὑπὸ λιμοῦ τε καὶ δίψους διαφθαρῆναι. καὶ μόλις ποτὲ ἤλθομεν ἐπὶ σκηνάς τινας, καὶ στάντες ἐβοῶμεν. προελθὼν δὲ οὗτος εἰσάγει τε ἡμᾶς ἔνδον καὶ ἀνέκαε πῦρ οὐκ ἀθρόον, ἀλλὰ κατ’ ὀλίγον· καὶ τὸν μὲν ἡμῶν αὐτὸς ἀνέτριβε, τὸν δὲ ἡ γυνὴ στέατι· οὐ γὰρ ἦν αὐτοῖς ἔλαιον· τέλος δὲ ὕδωρ κατέχεον θερμόν, ἕως ἀνέλαβον ἀπεψυγμένους.

Unseen

While I was saying this, someone stood up from the middle. And I thought to myself that another that happened to be of the same sort was going to accuse me. But he said, "Men, for a while now, having recognized this man, I knew him generally. And after I knew exactly who he was, it seemed wrong to me and especially impious, not to say what I know and not to return my thanks in a speech, having experienced the greatest good in deed. I am, he said, a citizen, as you know, and this one -- gesturing to the one sitting next to him, and he having stood -- we happened to be sailing in the ship of Sokleos three years ago. And the ship having sunk near Kaphereos, a very few were saved from the many. Some the fishermen took away, for some of them had silver in their bags. But we who had come out completely bare were walking through some untracked (?) territory, hoping to find some shelter of shepherds or cowherds, being completely devastated by hunger and thirst. And we came to some tents a distance away, and standing there shouted. This man coming up let us inside and kindled a fire not all together (?), but a little for each (?). And one of us he rubbed down with fat, and the other his wife. For they didn't have any oil. Finally they were pouring hot water until it took away the shivering (?).

With dictionary, grammar

While I was saying this, someone stood up in the middle. And I thought to myself that it happened that another of the same sort was going to accuse me. But he said, "Men, for a while now, though being unsure of this man, I nevertheless recognized him. And after I knew him clearly, it seems wrong to me and what's more, impious, not to say what I am conscious of and not to return my thanks in a speech, having experienced the greatest good in deed. I am, he said, a citizen, as you know, and this one -- gesturing to the one sitting next to him, and he having stood -- we happened to be sailing in the ship of Sokles three years ago. And the ship having sunk near Kaphereos, a very few were saved from the many. Some the purplefish fishermen took away, for some of them had silver in their wallets. But we who had come out completely bare were walking along a trail, hoping to find some shelter of shepherds or cowherds, risking being completely devastated by hunger and thirst. And once we came to some tents a distance away, and standing there we shouted. This man coming up let us inside and kindled a fire not all at once, but by little bits. And one of us he rubbed down with fat, and the other his wife. For they didn't have any oil. Finally they were pouring hot water until it took away the chills.

***

I wasn't entirely sure of ἀνέκαε πῦρ οὐκ ἀθρόον, ἀλλὰ κατ’ ὀλίγον. Maybe how I had it first was right.

Σωκλέους from Σωκλῆς, so Sokles?

Καφηρέα from Καφηρέος, so Kaphereos?
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by mwh » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:50 pm

πάλαι τοῦτον ἀμφιγνοῶν ἠπίστουν ὅμως Not “for a while now, though being unsure of this man, I nevertheless recognized him.”
“I’d long been thinking maybe I knew this man but I mistrusted the identification all the same.”
ἐπεὶ δὲ σαφῶς αὐτὸν ἔγνωκα “But now that I recognize him clearly, …”

I haven’t worked through the rest of your translation but it looks more or less ok.

ἀνέκαε πῦρ οὐκ ἀθρόον, ἀλλὰ κατ’ ὀλίγον. The way one lights a campfire. The fire grows bit by bit.

Sokles yes, like Sophokles etc.

Kaphereos no! -eus (diphthongal), like Kepheus, Achilleus, Peleus, basileus, …

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:02 am

Thank you! I didn't realize that ἠπίστουν was ἀπίστεω, and thought it was some variant of ἐπίσταμαι.

Dionysius of Halicarnassus: letter to Pompey 3.13-14

Μετὰ τοῦτο ἔργον ἐστὶν ἱστορικοῦ διελέσθαι τε καὶ τάξαι τῶν δηλουμένων ἕκαστον ἐν ᾧ δεῖ τόπῳ. πῶς οὖν ἑκάτερος διαιρεῖται καὶ τάττει τὰ λεγόμενα; Θουκυδίδης μὲν τοῖς χρόνοις ἀκολουθῶν, Ἡρόδοτος δὲ ταῖς περιοχαῖς τῶν πραγμάτων. καὶ γίγνεται Θουκυδίδης μὲν ἀσαφὴς καὶ δυσπαρακολούθητος· πολλῶν γὰρ κατὰ τὸ αὐτὸ θέρος ἢ τὸν αὐτὸν χειμῶνα γιγνομένων ἐν διαφόροις ὡς εἰκὸς τόποις, ἡμιτελεῖς τὰς πρώτας πράξεις καταλιπὼν ἑτέρων ἅπτεται· πλανώμεθα δὴ καθάπερ εἰκός, καὶ δυσκόλως τοῖς δηλουμένοις παρακολουθοῦμεν ταραττομένης τῆς διανοίας. Ἡρόδοτος δὲ ἀπὸ τῆς Λυδῶν βασιλείας ἀρξάμενος καὶ μέχρι τῆς Κροίσου καταβὰς ἐπὶ Κῦρον εὐθέως τὸν καταλύσαντα τὴν Κροίσου ἀρχὴν μεταβαίνει, Αἰγυπτίων τε ἄρχεται διηγημάτων καὶ Σκυθικῶν καὶ Λιβυκῶν, τὰ μὲν ὡς ἀκόλουθα δηλῶν, τὰ δὲ ὡς ἐπιζητούμενα προσαναλαμβάνων, τὰ δ’ ὡς χαριεστέραν ποιήσοντα τὴν διήγησιν ἐπεισάγων· διεξελθών τε πράξεις Ἑλλήνων τε καὶ βαρβάρων ἔτεσιν ὁμοῦ διακοσίοις καὶ εἴκοσι γενομένας ἐν ταῖς τρισὶν ἠπείροις ... * οὐ διέσπασε τὴν διήγησιν· ἀλλὰ συμβέβηκε τῷ μὲν μίαν ὑπόθεσιν λαβόντι πολλὰ ποιῆσαι μέρη τὸ ἓν σῶμα, τῷ δὲ τὰς πολλὰς καὶ οὐδὲν ἐοικυίας ὑποθέσεις προελομένῳ σύμφωνον ἓν σῶμα πεποιηκέναι.

* five words of the original text, probably including a lacuna, have been omitted

Unseen

After this it is the work of an historian to go through and arrange each bit of information in the place where it goes. So how do each of them take up and arrange what is said? Thucydides following the chronological order, but Herodotus the circumstances (περιοχαῖς ?) of the matters. And Thucydides winds up being confusing and hard to follow, for with much happening in the same Fall or the same Winter in far separate places, as it appears (?), he touches on other things leaving the first matters half-finished. So it's like we wander (indicative?) almost at random, and in difficulty we follow the information with a confused mental state. But Herodotus, beginning from the kingdom of Lydia and from Croesus proceeding straight to Cyrus goes through (?) the destruction of Croesus' reign. He begins with Egyptian matters and Scythian and Libyan, describing what is easy to follow (?), saving for later (?) what needs to be searched out, and going into detail on what makes the most satisfying tale. Having gone through matters both Greek and barbarian, about two hundred and twenty years in the three mainlands ... he did not scatter the story. Rather he has assembled using what took a single theme to make many parts into one body, and using what had many things and nothing that was a theme removed to have made multiple voices one body.

Revision:

After this it is the work of an historian to go through and arrange each bit of information in the place where it goes. So how do each of them take up and arrange what is said? Thucydides following the chronological order, but Herodotus the compass of the issues. And Thucydides winds up being confusing and hard to follow, for with much happening in the same Fall or the same Winter in probably separate places, he touches on other things, leaving the first matters half-finished. So it's like we wander almost at random, and in difficulty we follow the information with a confused mental state. But Herodotus, beginning from the kingdom of Lydia and from Croesus proceeding straight to Cyrus changes subject to the destruction of Croesus' reign. He begins with Egyptian matters and Scythian and Libyan, describing what is consequent, also taking in what is missed, and adding besides what makes the tale more satisfying. Having gone through matters both Greek and barbarian, about two hundred and twenty years in the three mainlands together ... he did not scatter the story. Rather it has happened that the one that took one theme made the single body into many parts, but the one that chose many things and nothing that was a theme had made a harmonious single body.

The last sentence was very hard for me, as you can see from my very different revised version. In the revision I took it as LSJ συμβαίνω III. b. "mostly impers., sts. c. dat. et inf." However I feel like I'm still messing it up and don't really see why it is both ποιῆσαι and πεποιηκέναι.
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by mwh » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:39 am

As I said, I haven’t been through either of your versions of the Dio, but in.the first sentence I see ἄλλος τοιοῦτος τυχὸν ἐμοῦ καταψευσόμενος, where τυχὸν is quasi-adverbial, “perhaps.” I expect there’s more to be put right yet.

I haven’t looked at the new one.
It would make life easier for your correctors if you gave only your revised translation, flagging all the parts you’re unsure of.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by mwh » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:52 pm

Dion.Hal.

διελέσθαι not “go through” (it's not διελθεῖν). Aor. of διαιροῦμαι, divide (into constituent parts); cf. διαίρεσις. A historian’s job is to divide up and organize (διελέσθαι τε καὶ τάξαι) his disparate material.

ἐν ᾧ δεῖ τόπῳ in the place it should go, in the appropriate place.

ταῖς περιοχαῖς τῶν πραγμάτων perhaps “the units of events,” i.e. he deals with one topic before moving to another—he presents a succession of discrete περιοχαι, each section being a self-contained whole. As explained in what follows.

ὡς εἰκὸς parenthetical, “naturally,” “as you’d expect.”

πλανώμεθα δὴ Strong asyndeton. Not “So.”

καθάπερ εἰκός like ὡς εἰκὸς, as is only natural. Not “at random”: εικός not εικῇ.

ταραττομένης τῆς διανοίας Not “with a confused mental state.” The διανοια is the “thought” of a passage, its import—thrown into disorder by Thuc’s discontinuous organization of events.

Ἡρόδοτος δὲ ἀπὸ τῆς Λυδῶν βασιλείας ἀρξάμενος | καὶ μέχρι τῆς Κροίσου καταβὰς | ἐπὶ Κῦρον εὐθέως τὸν καταλύσαντα τὴν Κροίσου ἀρχὴν μεταβαίνει,
You misarticulate this. See my inserted barlines. Classic word order of the three constituents.
ἀπὸ τῆς Λυδῶν βασιλείας ἀρξάμενος “beginning with the reign of the Lydians”
καὶ μέχρι τῆς Κροίσου καταβὰς “and going down to that (i.e. the reign) of Croesus.” You missed the τῆς.
ἐπὶ Κῦρον εὐθέως τὸν καταλύσαντα τὴν Κροίσου ἀρχὴν μεταβαίνει “switches directly to Cyrus, the one who brought Croesus’ rule to an end.”
You misconstrued the sentence and τὸν καταλύσαντα, referring to Κῦρον.
(Note in passing καταβας … μεταβαινει: he “goes down” through the generations to Croesus and then “goes over” to Cyrus, marking the switch from the Lydian dynasty to the Persian.)

Αἰγυπτίων τε ἄρχεται διηγημάτων Not “He begins with Egyptian matters.” A διηγημα (cf. διηγοῦμαι) is something described, a descriptive narrative. —Cf. διηγησιν below: –μα nouns are concrete, -σις more abstract, cf. e.g. ποιημα a poem, a composition, a made thing, vs. ποιησις poetry, composition, making.

τὰ μὲν ὡς ἀκόλουθα δηλῶν, τὰ δὲ ὡς ἐπιζητούμενα προσαναλαμβάνων, τὰ δ’ ὡς χαριεστέραν ποιήσοντα τὴν διήγησιν ἐπεισάγων
I’m not sure you’ve quite understood this trio. And ποιήσοντα is future.

ὁμοῦ “altogether,” not “about.”

οὐ διέσπασε τὴν διήγησιν—he didn’t tear it to pieces, unlike Thucydides. διασπασμος is dismemberment, think Pentheus (but not Khashoggi, sawn not torn).

ἀλλὰ συμβέβηκε τῷ μὲν μίαν ὑπόθεσιν λαβόντι πολλὰ ποιῆσαι μέρη τὸ ἓν σῶμα, τῷ δὲ τὰς πολλὰς καὶ οὐδὲν ἐοικυίας ὑποθέσεις προελομένῳ σύμφωνον ἓν σῶμα πεποιηκέναι.
τῳ μεν is Thuc., τῳ δε Hdt. That's crucial.
συμβέβηκε gives the final result. You got the construction, impers. w/ dat. and infin., but went off the rails. Lit. “it has happened to the one (τω μεν) to make (ποιησαι, i.e. that he made) … , and to the other (τω δε) to have made (πεποιηκεναι, i.e. that he has made) …
Lit. “the one, taking a single theme (the Pelop.war), made his single corpus many parts (i.e. he split it up, cf. διεσπασε above), while the other, preferring his many very dissimilar themes, has made a single coherent corpus.”
Note the difference between τὸ ἓν σῶμα subject of ποιησαι and ἓν σῶμα predicative.
And did you really translate οὐδὲν ἐοικυίας ὑποθέσεις as “nothing that was a theme”?! εοικυια fem.pple εοικα, “seeming like (one another), seeming alike”, ουδεν adverbial with it.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:45 am

mwh wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:52 pm
διελέσθαι not “go through” (it's not διελθεῖν). Aor. of διαιροῦμαι, divide (into constituent parts); cf. διαίρεσις. A historian’s job is to divide up and organize (διελέσθαι τε καὶ τάξαι) his disparate material.
The force of the middle isn't obvious to me. "To make his own division"?
mwh wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:52 pm
πλανώμεθα δὴ Strong asyndeton. Not “So.”
This is "δή II. without temporal significance, as a Particle of emphasis, in fact, of course, certainly"?
mwh wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:52 pm
(Note in passing καταβας … μεταβαινει: he “goes down” through the generations to Croesus and then “goes over” to Cyrus, marking the switch from the Lydian dynasty to the Persian.)
Thank you, I was wondering about the significance of μεταβαίνει. This clears it up.
mwh wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:52 pm
τὰ μὲν ὡς ἀκόλουθα δηλῶν, τὰ δὲ ὡς ἐπιζητούμενα προσαναλαμβάνων, τὰ δ’ ὡς χαριεστέραν ποιήσοντα τὴν διήγησιν ἐπεισάγων
I’m not sure you’ve quite understood this trio. And ποιήσοντα is future.
Oh, is he referring to the Egyptian, Scythian, and Lydian narratives separately? So: The [Egyptian narratives] as he is revealing what follows, the [Scythian narratives] as he is anticipating what is missed, the [Lydian narratives] as he is bringing something in to make the narration more enjoyable.

(῾Narration῾ for -ις, and 'narrative' for -μα, following your explanation)

But I'm not very sure of ὡς ἐπιζητούμενα προσαναλαμβάνων as "anticipating what is missed".
mwh wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:52 pm
And did you really translate οὐδὲν ἐοικυίας ὑποθέσεις as “nothing that was a theme”?! εοικυια fem.pple εοικα, “seeming like (one another), seeming alike”, ουδεν adverbial with it.
I understand after your explanation. This seems straightforward now, though I'd think that "seeming alike" or "alike" should be its own gloss in the LSJ for ἔοικα, but I don't see it. Since you ask, I misread it thinking that τὰς πολλὰς was subject (and οὐδὲν another subject linked by καὶ) of ἐοικυίας with ὑποθέσεις the object. However, now it's clear what is going on, with οὐδὲν ἐοικυίας basically functioning like an adjective alongside πολλάς.
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by mwh » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:53 am

"To make his own division” wd be too strong for διελέσθαι. A knife diairei, a person diaireitai.

δή is never really temporal. It adds punch. You could check other instances where it accompanies asyndeton. (Asyndeton works something like a colon in English.) Particles, those lovely featherweight appendages (te, ge, men, …), are the glory of Greek, and more subtle than anything else in the language. They don’t translate, or not without exaggeration, but they contribute so much!

τὰ δὲ ὡς ἐπιζητούμενα προσαναλαμβάνων, taking them up, additionally (pros-), as matters enquired into, subjects of investigation. You’ll have registered the three ὡς.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:55 pm

12. Euripides: Andromache 445 - 463

Αν. ὦ πᾶσιν ἀνθρώποισιν ἔχθιστοι βροτῶν (445) Σπάρτης ἔνοικοι, δόλια βουλευτήρια, ψευδῶν ἄνακτες, μηχανορράφοι κακῶν, ἑλικτὰ κοὐδὲν ὑγιὲς ἀλλὰ πᾶν πέριξ φρονοῦντες, ἀδίκως εὐτυχεῖτ’ ἀν’ Ἑλλάδα. τί δ’ οὐκ ἐν ὑμῖν ἐστιν; οὐ πλεῖστοι φόνοι; (450) οὐκ αἰσχροκερδεῖς, οὐ λέγοντες ἄλλα μὲν γλώσσηι, φρονοῦντες δ’ ἄλλ’ ἐφευρίσκεσθ’ ἀεί; ὄλοισθ’. ἐμοὶ μὲν θάνατος οὐχ οὕτω βαρὺς ὅς σοι δέδοκται· κεῖνα γάρ μ’ ἀπώλεσεν, ὅθ’ ἡ τάλαινα πόλις ἀνηλώθη Φρυγῶν (455) πόσις θ’ ὁ κλεινός, ὅς σε πολλάκις δορὶ @1 ναύτην ἔθηκεν ἀντὶ χερσαίου κακόν. νῦν δ’ ἐς γυναῖκα γοργὸς ὁπλίτης φανεὶς κτείνεις μ’· ἀπόκτειν’· ὡς ἀθώπευτόν γέ σε γλώσσης ἀφήσω τῆς ἐμῆς καὶ παῖδα σήν. (460) ἐπεὶ σὺ μὲν πέφυκας ἐν Σπάρτηι μέγας, ἡμεῖς δὲ Τροίαι γ’. εἰ δ’ ἐγὼ πράσσω κακῶς, μηδὲν τόδ’ αὔχει· καὶ σὺ γὰρ πράξειας ἄν.

My unseen version:
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I address you, considered by all mankind the most hated among mortals, residents of Sparta, deceitful Senate, ruling by lies, μηχανορράφοι (tricksters ?) of evil, thoughts dwelling on ἑλικτὰ and nothing healthy, but everything πέριξ, you unjustly εὐτυχεῖτε throughout Greece. What does not dwell in you? Aren't most of you murderers? Are you not shameful profiteers, saying one thing with the tongue, but always found out to be thinking something else? Go to hell. Death has not seemed so heavy to me as to you (sing.). For these things have slain me, that my poor city was ἀνηλώθη by the Phrygians, and my κλεινός husband, who often with his spear made you a sailor instead of χερσαίου κακόν. But now, to a woman you appear to be a γοργός (monstrous ?) soldier -- You slay me. I die. As a ἀθώπευτόν I have spit you from my tongue, and your child. Since you are a great one in Sparta, but we in Troy. If I do evil, let it not prosper, καὶ σὺ γὰρ πράξειας ἄν (for were even you to do it?)
Looking up words:

I address you, considered by all mankind the most hated among mortals, residents of Sparta, deceitful Senate, ruling by lies, crafty schemers of evil, thinking in a twisted manner, nowise healthy, but all circuitously, you unjustly prosper throughout Greece. What does not dwell in you? Aren't most of you murderers? Are you not shameful profiteers, saying one thing with the tongue, but always found out to be thinking something else? Go to hell. Death has not seemed so heavy to me as to you (sing.). For these things have slain me, that my poor city perished and my husband renowned of Phrygia, who often with his spear made you a coward sailor instead of a landsman. But now, to a woman you appear to be a monstrous soldier -- You slay me. Slay. As I will not flatter from my tongue you and your child. Since you are a great one in Sparta, but we in Troy. If I fare ill, never boast this, if only you were to do likewise.

πλεῖστοι φόνοι -- mostly murderers, or great number of murderers, or ?
ὅς σε πολλάκις δορὶ ναύτην ἔθηκεν ἀντὶ χερσαίου κακόν -- I think I understood this?
Φρυγῶν -- I would have thought it went with the phrase preceding it, but doesn't seem to make sense there, so I took it with the following
κτείνεις μ’· ἀπόκτειν’· -- what's going on here?
μηδὲν τόδ’ αὔχει -- imperative, right?
καὶ σὺ γὰρ πράξειας ἄν -- I'm very uncertain of this
Last edited by jeidsath on Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: missed σε on 459
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:27 pm

A few things offhand.

πλεῖστοι φόνοι -- the most murders

ὅς σε πολλάκις δορὶ ναύτην ἔθηκεν ἀντὶ χερσαίου κακόν -- the idea is that Hector drove the Greeks back to the sea, or at least to their boats.

νῦν δ’ ἐς γυναῖκα γοργὸς ὁπλίτης φανεὶς κτείνεις μ’· ἀπόκτειν’· -- "Now that you've shown what a terrifying soldier you are -- against a woman! -- you're killing me. Go ahead, kill me."

ἡ τάλαινα πόλις ἀνηλώθη Φρυγῶν -- the wretched city of the Phygians (i.e., Trojans) has been destroyed

εἰ δ’ ἐγὼ πράσσω κακῶς, μηδὲν τόδ’ αὔχει· καὶ σὺ γὰρ πράξειας ἄν. -- If I'm faring ill, don't boast about it: you might too.

ἐμοὶ μὲν θάνατος οὐχ οὕτω βαρὺς ὅς σοι δέδοκται --A death decreed by you is not so terrible to me.

παῖδα σήν -- your daughter (Hermione)

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by mwh » Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:17 am

Adding a few things to Hhylander:

“I address you” far too mild for ὦ. She launches straight into her blistering earth-scorching attack, breathing fire.

δόλια βουλευτήρια, Not “Senate”!

ψευδῶν ἄνακτες “lords of lies”

οὐ λέγοντες ἄλλα μὲν
γλώσσηι, φρονοῦντες δ’ ἄλλ’ ἐφευρίσκεσθ’ ἀεί;
Both participles governed by ἐφευρίσκεσθε.

πόλις ἀνηλώθη Φρυγῶν The Phrygians are Trojan allies in the Iliad, and Troy can be called a Phrygian city.

κτείνεις μ’· ἀπόκτειν’· i.e. You’re proposing to kill me. Kill on (proceed with killing me, present tense). Androm is not cowed, and will not plead for mercy. She’s addressing Menelaus king of Sparta.

αὔχει imperative yes, as the accent shows.

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