Gal.Nat.Fac.1.13 πρό τῶν μαγείρων "before" or "besides"

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Gal.Nat.Fac.1.13 πρό τῶν μαγείρων "before" or "besides"

Post by ἑκηβόλος »

In the flow of an argument, the πρό might describe "and moving on from", but in building up a case against those who misunderstand the urinary system, πρό could mean "we don't even need to get to" (the butchers who chop up the bodies of animals every day and see the tubes, but even those with no knowledge of anything internalunderstand the relationship between kidneys and urine). Ie. We don't need to consider anatomy, because even commonsense is enough.

The rendering "besides", ie. "outside of this group" seems to imply the understanding of "additionally".

Was an argument thought of as line in which one point moved on to the other, or was more complexity also allowable?
ἀλλὰ καὶ οἱ μάγειροι σχεδὸν ἅπαντες ἴσασιν, ὁσημέραι θεώμενοι τήν τε θέσιν αὐτῶν καὶ τὸν ἀφ᾽ ἑκατέρου πόρον εἰς τὴν κύστιν ἐμβάλλοντα, τὸν οὐρητῆρα καλούμενον, ἐξ αὐτῆς τῆς κατασκευῆς ἀναλογιζόμενοι τήν τε χρείαν αὐτῶν καὶ τὴν δύναμιν. καὶ πρό γε τῶν μαγείρων ἅπαντες ἄνθρωποι καὶ δυσουροῦντες πολλάκις καὶ παντάπασιν ἰσχουροῦντες, ὅταν ἀλγῶσι μὲν τὰ κατὰ τὰς ψόας, ψαμμώδη δ᾽ ἐξουρῶσιν, νεφριτικοὺς ὀνομάζουσι σφᾶς αὐτούς.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Gal.Nat.Fac.1.13 πρό τῶν μαγείρων "before" or "besides"

Post by mwh »

It’s the ordinary temporal use of προ (or in this case προ γε). The argument is: Not just physicians but butchers recognize it [I assume he’s talking about the functioning of the kidneys], and (even) before butchers everyone with urinary difficulties did too—witness the fact that they call themselves kidney-sufferers. He phrases it as if nephritis sufferers existed in the world (or recognized that the kidneys were responsible for their problem) before butchers did, but that’s not necessarily meant literally, given Galen’s hierarchy of Hippocratic physicians (with their professional and detailed understanding of the workings of the body), butchers (who observe the anatomical phenomena), and ordinary sufferers (with no expertise).

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Re: Gal.Nat.Fac.1.13 πρό τῶν μαγείρων "before" or "besides"

Post by ἑκηβόλος »

Perhaps temporal within our own experiential lifetimes? "When we are too young to know about butchers, we see people complaining about their kidney problems". An elite profession we rarely need to meet - common profession we experience from time to time regularly - non-professionals who make up or everyday lives from childhood.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Gal.Nat.Fac.1.13 πρό τῶν μαγείρων "before" or "besides"

Post by RandyGibbons »

Perhaps temporal within our own experiential lifetimes?
I think you're over-interpreting it. I think Michael is exactly right, viz., it's the temporal use of πρό but not to be taken especially literally.

Kühn's translation (Volume II, page 31): Iam etiam priores ipsis coquis omnes homines, qui subinde difficulter meiunt ...

Loeb translation: But, even leaving the butchers aside, all people who suffer either from frequent dysuria ...

(Yes, Galen is talking about the functioning of the kidneys.)

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Re: Gal.Nat.Fac.1.13 πρό τῶν μαγείρων "before" or "besides"

Post by ἑκηβόλος »

Kidneys are internal organs, whose very existence would not have occured to people without disection. Urine is external, the discomfort of passing urine with difficulty is sensory, both of which would be obvious to sufferers. Understanding oneself to be the sufferer of a problem in a pair of organs that one does not know exists is a stretch of the imagination.

I guess that Galen is being humorous, satire or sarcastic here. That is has an awareness of what confusion his readers would have at this (not to be taken especially literally) order. Quite what it shoukd be taken as, if not literally is another thing. The main point for my current interest is that Galen is exhibiting a theory of mind - that a broad range if authours (other than Longus) can use subtleties of language to make their readers understand something while knowing that they will at the same time understand it to not be the authour's intention that they should believe it. Both Michael and Randy thinking that Galen is not quite literal is good enough "proof" of that for me.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Gal.Nat.Fac.1.13 πρό τῶν μαγείρων "before" or "besides"

Post by RandyGibbons »

I guess that Galen is being humorous, satire or sarcastic here. That is has an awareness of what confusion his readers would have at this (not to be taken especially literally) order.
I'd say sarcastic, but I'd say the sarcasm is more in the context than in the preposition. And I don't think there's any question of reader confusion going on here.

Here's the context:

On the Natural Faculties is about the powers (faculties) and instrumentality of reproduction, growth, and nutrition in living entities (plants, animals, man). In man, the three principal powers are distributed to the body from the liver via veins (so Galen and the state of the art and terminology at that time), from the heart via the arteries, and from the brain via the nerves. And more narrowly Nat. Fac. ends up being a lot about the body's "tubes" and the attractive powers the body is endowed with by nature.

These tubes participate in the process of alteration of the bodily substances (e.g., how liquids we drink become urine). Chapter 12: According to Galen's role model Hippocrates, substances are "artfully" designed by nature to be subject to alteration; this is opposed to the atomistic, Democritean concept of matter. (According to Galen, a good doctor must also be a philosopher!)

Chapter 13 continues the polemic, this time directed against the teachings of Asclepiades of Bithynia as representative of the atomistic view. Doctors of this sect are compelled by their doctrine to ignore what's right before their very eyes: ὅσοι γὰρ οὐδεμίαν οὐδενὶ μορίῳ νομίζουσιν ὑπάρχειν ἑλκτικὴν τῆς οἰκείας ποιότητος δύναμιν [this is the crux of the matter], ἀναγαγκάζονται πολλάκις ἐναντία λέγειν τοῖς ἐναργῶς φαινομένοις). Case in point: The role of the kidneys in the production of, and the role of the tube called the "urethra" in the passage (think ἑλκτικὴν δύναμιν) of urine to the bladder. Not only Hippocrates and most other eminent physicians, but even butchers infer their use and function from their position in the body. In fact, that even sufferers of pains in the loins accompanied by stones in the urine infer this is shown by the fact that they call themselves "nephritics."

But Hippocrates' reasoning and theory is more magnificent than this and went beyond inferences from the externally visible, so Galen goes on to explain in great detail, mixing in anatomical observations of his own (Galen reminds us that physicians in the time of Hippocrates did not practice human dissection). Many arguments later, Galen concludes that Asclepiades is a liar!

So there's a lot of sarcasm in Galen's polemical works and in this one in particular, and the specific as well as broader context of καὶ πρό γε τῶν μαγείρων is sarcastic, but I read καὶ πρό γε τῶν μαγείρων in and of itself more as a sequential step in the argument, though indeed perhaps containing a whiff of the surrounding sarcasim. The real sarcasm is that about to be directed physician v. physician at the reasoning of the Asclepiadic sect.

So hey, ἑκήβολε, are you currently reading Nat. Fac. in its entirety, as well as perhaps other works of Galen?

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Re: Gal.Nat.Fac.1.13 πρό τῶν μαγείρων "before" or "besides"

Post by ἑκηβόλος »

RandyGibbons wrote:Doctors of this sect are compelled by their doctrine to ignore what's right before their very eyes: ὅσοι γὰρ οὐδεμίαν οὐδενὶ μορίῳ νομίζουσιν ὑπάρχειν ἑλκτικὴν τῆς οἰκείας ποιότητος δύναμιν [this is the crux of the matter],
Ironically enough, these crucial words are the ones that I am still struggling with in this passage. My, "The attractive strength of intimate quality" has even less meaning than the individual words taken severally. Which or in what way is he conceptualising ποιότης here? Is οἰκεῖος something like "the same" here?
RandyGibbons wrote:So hey, ἑκήβολε, are you currently reading Nat. Fac. in its entirety, as well as perhaps other works of Galen?
It would be nice to read all of this particular work, if not just to put another notch on my reading pointer stick thingy.

As for the other works of Galen, putting aside half an hour a day to cover 150 words, reading through ALL of Galen's works would take about 45 years.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Gal.Nat.Fac.1.13 πρό τῶν μαγείρων "before" or "besides"

Post by jeidsath »

"...ὑπάρχειν ἑλκτικὴν τῆς οἰκείας ποιότητος δύναμιν"

δύναμιν is the subject of the infinitive, and ἑλκτικὴν the predicate, right?

"...exists a power that is an attraction of its own quality"
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Gal.Nat.Fac.1.13 πρό τῶν μαγείρων "before" or "besides"

Post by ἑκηβόλος »

jeidsath wrote:"[οὐδεμίαν] ...ὑπάρχειν ἑλκτικὴν τῆς οἰκείας ποιότητος δύναμιν"

δύναμιν is the subject of the infinitive, and ἑλκτικὴν the predicate, right?

"...exists a power that is an attraction of its own quality"
In terms of syntax, can't we take the οὐδεμίαν to be the predicate? Though there is a noun, ἕλξιν, is it possible that ἑλκτικὴν (with the article?) could have the sense of a noun?
Last edited by ἑκηβόλος on Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Gal.Nat.Fac.1.13 πρό τῶν μαγείρων "before" or "besides"

Post by jeidsath »

οὐδεμνίαν doesn't stand on its own. It's an adjective and has to hook up with either ἑλκτικὴν or δύναμιν, whichever is the subject of ὑπάρχειν. So, if you'd like to include it in my suggested analysis, it would obviously become:

"οὐδεμίαν...ὑπάρχειν ἑλκτικὴν τῆς οἰκείας ποιότητος δύναμιν"

"there exists not one force that is an attraction of its own quality"

If it's the other way around, it would be:

"there exists not one attraction of its own quality that is a force"

But the second doesn't seem to make sense in context.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Gal.Nat.Fac.1.13 πρό τῶν μαγείρων "before" or "besides"

Post by RandyGibbons »

Joel has the syntax right, viz., οὐδεμίαν δύναμιν is the subject of ὑπάρχειν, ἑλκτικὴν τῆς οἰκείας ποιότητος predicate. Joel, as a literal translation, your "there exists not one force that is an attraction of its own quality" is also correct. Refinements: οὐδεμίαν here isn't so much its dictionary definition of "not one" (or "not even one"); the unit of translation is the phrase οὐδεμίαν οὐδενί μορίῳ - Galen's point is not that there are not three, not two, not even one power but that no bodily part (his opponents believe) has the kind of power Galen is talking about. And that kind of part is an "attractive" part, an adjective the verbal force of which is lost in "is an attraction."

But, ἑκήβολε, ἑλκτικὴν τῆς οἰκείας ποιότητος δύναμιν is technical terminology from the realm of medical philosophy, and the task here is not really translation but study, if you're reading Nat. Fac. for some insight into ancient medicine rather than just for another notch on your reading pointer stick thingy :D .

A good place to start is simply the footnotes in the Loeb edition.

The Loeb translation:

"For those people who do not believe that there exists in any part of the animal a faculty for attracting its own special quality are compelled ..." (printed with the italics in the Loeb, see the footnote)

Kühn:

Qui enim attractricem convenientis qualitatis vim nulli inesse parti volunt, ii saepe ...

P.S. By the way, apologies ἑκηβόλε for mis-accenting your name!

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Re: Gal.Nat.Fac.1.13 πρό τῶν μαγείρων "before" or "besides"

Post by ἑκηβόλος »

jeidsath wrote:οὐδεμίαν doesn't stand on its own. It's an adjective and has to hook up with either ἑλκτικὴν or δύναμιν, whichever is the subject of ὑπάρχειν.
I was thinking "in no wise".
So, if you'd like to include it in my suggested analysis, it would obviously become:

"οὐδεμίαν...ὑπάρχειν ἑλκτικὴν τῆς οἰκείας ποιότητος δύναμιν"

"there exists not one force that is an attraction of its own quality"
The addition of another noun (in the genitive in this case) prompts us to consider the "verbal" properties of the first noun's relationship to the added noun. ie οὐδεμίαν...ὑπάρχειν δύναμιν, ἣ ἕλκει ἐφ᾽ ἑαυτὴν τὴν οἰκείαν ἑαυτῇ ποιότητα to express the abstraction of a relationship (in negative terms) that was set out in an obvious concrete example in 1.12, viz.
καθ᾽ ἃς ἕκαστον τῶν [p. 30] μορίων ἕλκει μὲν ἐφ᾽ ἑαυτὸ τὸν οἰκεῖον ἑαυτῷ χυμόν
He gives the example, then says that those who deny the relationship, need to explain away the examples.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Gal.Nat.Fac.1.13 πρό τῶν μαγείρων "before" or "besides"

Post by jeidsath »

ἑκηβόλος wrote:I was thinking "in no wise".

<snip>
I think you'd need that to be neuter.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Gal.Nat.Fac.1.13 πρό τῶν μαγείρων "before" or "besides"

Post by ἑκηβόλος »

RandyGibbons wrote:reading pointer stick thingy
What is that called? It must have a name of its own more descriptive than "thingamajig"...
RandyGibbons wrote:A good place to start is simply the footnotes in the Loeb edition.
Generally speaking, when a translator quotes the Latin, it means they find the Greek challenging.
RandyGibbons wrote:But, ἑκήβολε, ἑλκτικὴν τῆς οἰκείας ποιότητος δύναμιν is technical terminology from the realm of medical philosophy, and the task here is not really translation but study, if you're reading Nat. Fac. for some insight into ancient medicine
Who needs particular aims in a hobby? I'm sure that understanding the concepts will help the reading and reading will introduce me to some aspects at least of medical philosophy. :lol:

In reading Greek at leisure and as opportunity has arisen these past 20 or more years since graduation, I can't imagine how I got through so many texts in so short a time as an undergraduate. There was no time to memorise or think about things deeply then.
Last edited by ἑκηβόλος on Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Gal.Nat.Fac.1.13 πρό τῶν μαγείρων "before" or "besides"

Post by ἑκηβόλος »

jeidsath wrote:
ἑκηβόλος wrote:I was thinking "in no wise".

<snip>
I think you'd need that to be neuter.
Perhaps as an adverb yes. At that point, I was contrasting οὐδεμίαν "there in no wise exists", with a simple οὐχ - "there does not exist".
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Gal.Nat.Fac.1.13 πρό τῶν μαγείρων "before" or "besides"

Post by ἑκηβόλος »

RandyGibbons wrote:... the realm of medical philosophy, and the task here is not really translation but study,
I suspect that it us not so much a question of medical philosophy, but of natural philosophy, wherein the understanding of what happens for a ship and a painting is used to parallel the authour's understanding of a substance undergoing alteration to become the material of an animal.
Galen 1.5 wrote:διαπλάττεσθαι χρὴ τὴν ἀλλοιουμένην οὐσίαν, ἣν δὴ καὶ ὕλην τοῦ ζῴου καλῶν, ὡς τῆς νεὼς τὰ ξύλα καὶ τῆς εἰκόνος τὸν κηρόν, οὐκ ἂν ἁμάρτοις.
Did wood becoming the material of a ship involve processes such as soaking, sun-drying, roasting, and/or aging as well as shaping?

In modern scientific terms, within the ἔγκαυσις painting process, is the κηρός actually changed or does it evaporate?
In terms of late antique natural philosophy, how did they conceive of the alteration of the bees wax that became the material of the picture? What were the underlying principles and changes in properties that the authour assumed his readers shared his understanding of?
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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