How to translate τοσαυτα here? Lysias 24.4

Here you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get help with a difficult passage of Greek, and more.
Post Reply
Phoebus Apollo
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:04 pm

How to translate τοσαυτα here? Lysias 24.4

Post by Phoebus Apollo » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:53 pm

περὶ μὲν οὖν τούτων τοσαῦτά μοι εἰρήσθω: ὑπὲρ ὧν δέ μοι προσήκει λέγειν, ὡς ἂν οἷόν τε διὰ βραχυτάτων ἐρῶ

I rendered it 'Therefore, regarding these things, let so much be said by me...'. But a couple of translations I've seen imply something along the lines of 'let so few/little (words) be said by me' - I know that τοσουτος can mean both 'so great' or 'so little', but I'm not sure which is appropriate in this context. Any help would be appreciated :)

anphph
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 559
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:35 am

Re: How to translate τοσαυτα here? Lysias 24.4

Post by anphph » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:57 pm

τοσαυτα refers, as you know, to size if in the singular, to number if in the plural. It expects an either explicit or implied οσαυτα. Here it looks back to the previous paragraph, before he changes subject [δε], and starts to talk about something else.

I'd translate it as

About this subject I've said as much (==Let as much have been said by me) (οσαυτα ειπον as I have said). Now as for the...

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2882
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: How to translate τοσαυτα here? Lysias 24.4

Post by mwh » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:18 pm

τοσαυτα here implies “so much and no more.” As we might say “That’s all I have to say about that” or “Well (μεν ουν) that’s enough on that.” The μεν ουν … is transitional, simultaneously looking back and pointing forward to the δέ continuation on another subject.

Compare e.g. the end of (bk.1 of) Aristotle’s Poetics: περι μεν ουν τραγωδιας … ειρήσθω τοσαῦτα, signing off his treatment of tragedy etc. A δὲ sentence will have started bk.2.

anphph, I think you mean ὅσα (and ειρηκα pf.) not ὁσαῦτα. But that's only implicit, at best. τοσαῦτα is complete in itself, just as ταῦτα would be.

anphph
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 559
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:35 am

Re: How to translate τοσαυτα here? Lysias 24.4

Post by anphph » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:21 am

mwh wrote:anphph, I think you mean ὅσα (and ειρηκα pf.) not ὁσαῦτα. But that's only implicit, at best. τοσαῦτα is complete in itself, just as ταῦτα would be.
You are of course right. Thank you for the correction, and apologies to Phoebus Apollo for the misdirection.

Post Reply