Relative Difficulty of Herodotus

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Rouge Grammarian
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Relative Difficulty of Herodotus

Post by Rouge Grammarian »

Χαίρετε,

I've studied Greek for about a year now (in college and independent reading this summer), and I'll be taking a seminar on Herodotus this coming fall. Aside from differences in dialect, should I expect any noticeable increase difficulty compared to Xenophon or Lysias?

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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Relative Difficulty of Herodotus

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Herodotus is mostly rather straightforward narrative text. I personally did not find him difficult (although every author has his challenging moments). The dialectical differences are quickly picked up -- in no time at all you won't even notice them.
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Re: Relative Difficulty of Herodotus

Post by mwh »

If you can handle Xenophon and Lysias you’ll be able to handle Herodotus. Some of the dialectal features may take more getting used than Barry implies, however.

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Re: Relative Difficulty of Herodotus

Post by daivid »

I would agree with everyone else that they are about the same in difficulty but they are difficult in different ways. For instance, in my experience, Xenophon mixes very simple sentences with long and convoluted sentences where as Herodotus' sentences tend to be more consistently moderately difficult.
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Re: Relative Difficulty of Herodotus

Post by RandyGibbons »

IMHO, I would get away from the notion of "difficult". Let's stipulate that reading an ancient language is by its very nature difficult; anyone who thinks they are going to get "good" enough to read an Oxford Classical Text or Teubner edition, unaided by a commentary, as if it were a modern novel is in for some frustration. (Possible exception: If you've made a career of it.) Lysias, Xenophon, and Herodotus: Three authors writing in totally different contexts, each with its own challenges (the Ionic dialect is not one of them - that will be second nature after five or six pages), but in all three cases what better reward for learning Greek?! Enjoy Herodotus! Was there ever a more interesting book written?

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Re: Relative Difficulty of Herodotus

Post by daivid »

RandyGibbons wrote:IMHO, I would get away from the notion of "difficult". Let's stipulate that reading an ancient language is by its very nature difficult; anyone who thinks they are going to get "good" enough to read an Oxford Classical Text or Teubner edition, unaided by a commentary, as if it were a modern novel is in for some frustration.
Well, yes, if Ancient Greek continues to be taught using the methods of the 19th century this will continue to be the case.
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Re: Relative Difficulty of Herodotus

Post by RandyGibbons »

"Difficult" in the sense I meant it has nothing to do with how you learned the language well enough to take a crack at Lysias, Xenophon, or Herodotus without the aid of a translation. Let's posit someone who's learned Greek with the best modern methods and has a good natural feel for the language; in just about any ancient text she'll run up quick enough against an unfamiliar, technical, or possibly obscure idiom, a passage difficult to interpret, a significant manuscript variance, something not understood about the context, etc. That goes with the territory. (Professional level commentaries reveal just how much highly qualified scholars can disagree about these things.)

What I was really trying to get Rouge Grammarian to think about was, is there any value in spending your time wondering about how "difficult" an author is going to be?

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Re: Relative Difficulty of Herodotus

Post by daivid »

RandyGibbons wrote:"Difficult" in the sense I meant it has nothing to do with how you learned the language well enough to take a crack at Lysias, Xenophon, or Herodotus without the aid of a translation. Let's posit someone who's learned Greek with the best modern methods and has a good natural feel for the language; in just about any ancient text she'll run up quick enough against an unfamiliar, technical, or possibly obscure idiom, a passage difficult to interpret, a significant manuscript variance, something not understood about the context, etc. That goes with the territory. (Professional level commentaries reveal just how much highly qualified scholars can disagree about these things.)

What I was really trying to get Rouge Grammarian to think about was, is there any value in spending your time wondering about how "difficult" an author is going to be?
When I was learning Serbo-Croat, whenever I started on a book that was difficult I would put it aside and take up a book that was easier. By the time I returned to a book that I had earlier found difficult it would be easy. Hence my experience from learning Serb-Croat has taught me that the fundamental rule of learning a language is to never try to run before you can walk.

I simply don't buy the idea that Ancient Greek is intrinsically more difficult than other languages. Yes there are different variants. The ionic of Herodotus has features that are disconcerting when you are used to reading Attic Greek. Perhaps that difference is greater that the difference between British English and American English but if so only marginally so. Herodotus has his pet words but so do many writers in all languages. (I would say to Rouge Grammarian, should he find the number of unknown words in Herodotus causes a problem he might make use of the Steadman's commentary which has vocabulary for each page. Going over the vocabulary a day or two before reading should help make Herodotus easier.)

What makes the study of Ancient Greek hard is not that it is intrinsically hard but the lack of easy texts to form a bridge.

Except of course you are right about the state of the manuscripts that survive do have problems and lacunae etc. Which is why anyone still learning the language should stick to texts that a well edited it which any difficulties are ironed out.

With the level of Greek that I have achieved, it is true, I often get stuck with these edited texts but usually checking with a translation allows me to eventually work out the logic of the language. When that fails I post here and while occasionally it turns out that the sense of a sentence is disputed but that is rare. Mostly, once it is explained to me by the one or more of textkits experts I grasp the logic. Hence my problem is not that that the sentence in question is unclear and obscure to modern readers but that I myself am attempting to run before I can walk.

So I would argue that the difficulty of a texts is absolutely crucial.
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Re: Relative Difficulty of Herodotus

Post by RandyGibbons »

"So I would argue that the difficulty of a texts is absolutely crucial."

Yes, I agree, after you've had Secondary Language 101 and 102, and you're ready to attempt some extended piece of writing, it's crucial that you pick something the reading of which you find enjoyable rather than frustrating.

That can happen in roughly two ways. Some people will want a few "A Greek Boy at Home" 's before trying out a "real" work (i.e., one not written for instructional purposes). Others will dive right into the deep end. As an adult, I've tended to favor the second way, but neither is the "right" or the "wrong" way, it's just a personal choice. After I had college ancient Greek 101 and 102, I dove right into the Iliad. I didn't mind that initially I was looking up pretty much every other word. I was thrilled to be reading Homer. After the equivalent of German 101 and 102, though mostly self-taught, I dove into the poetry of Rainer Marie Rilke and, what was especially helpful to my language acquisition (for which I think prose is generally better suited), Rilke's novel Malte Laurids Brigge. But if I were learning Serbo-Croat, I might well prefer "A Belgrade Lad" first! :)

But once you've read some Lysias and some Xenophon to your satisfaction, does the question of the relative "difficulty" of different Greek (or Latin) authors serve any purpose? It seems to me that at that point you either read what the curriculum makes you read, or you read and author or work you're really interested in. And hopefully for you, Rouge Grammarian, Herodotus is both!

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Re: Relative Difficulty of Herodotus

Post by daivid »

When you put it like that, I don't think we have any significant disagreements at all.
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Re: Relative Difficulty of Herodotus

Post by C. S. Bartholomew »

RandyGibbons wrote: Others will dive right into the deep end.
You might hit your head on a rock. A want-to-be mountain climber who manages to slog his way up Mount Saint Helens (before 1980) and makes his next objective Curtis Ridge on Mount Rainier is going to become a statistic.

Decades ago I found Denniston & Page Agamemnon at the library. Read the back cover which said the book is intended for sixth form. So I figured this must be easy stuff. Wrong.

The question of difficulty while subjective is not without merit.

Ranking difficulty by genre:

dialogues (Plato) -> narrative -> exposition -> poetry

Numerous qualifications. Epic poetry probably about the same as narrative. Tragic dialogue can be difficult. Tragic chorus is considered more difficult. The differences are most notable at the extremes. Jump from the opening lines of Plato's Apology to a chorus in Sophocles.
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Re: Relative Difficulty of Herodotus

Post by RandyGibbons »

You might hit your head on a rock.


You rank the difficulty of a number of authors and genres in your personal experience. I could do the same, and my ranking would be pretty much the same as yours. I took a seminar on Sophocles two years ago. Yes, the tragic choruses were more "difficult" than Xenophon. But so what? I was reading Sophocles! You say "the question of difficulty while subjective is not without merit," but I don't see your explanation of what the merit is??

I enjoyed your analogy to mountain climbing, but really, no one is going to hurt themselves reading! I say to my fellow Graecophiles, dive in! If you find Sophocles (to stick with that example) a little too over your head for now, no problem, pick another author you're interested in. But for goodness sake, if one reason you're learning Greek in the first place is to be able to read Greek tragedy in the original, don't get all bothered ahead of time about how "difficult" it might be!

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