Where to start with Greek verbs?

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ThatGuyWhoLovesLatin
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Where to start with Greek verbs?

Post by ThatGuyWhoLovesLatin »

Where do you begin to tackle the monster that is the Greek verb system? I would reckon the present tense, but I've heard it's the hardest tense to tackle. Should I start there anyways?

C. S. Bartholomew
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Re: Where to start with Greek verbs?

Post by C. S. Bartholomew »

ThatGuyWhoLovesLatin wrote:Where do you begin to tackle the monster that is the Greek verb system? I would reckon the present tense, but I've heard it's the hardest tense to tackle. Should I start there anyways?
You might start by reading something on Greek verb aspect first so you understand the foundational concepts. This isn't the road most traveled however.

Here is a class handout from Peter J. Gentry SBTS 04/01/10.
http://www.ntdiscourse.org/docs/Gentry-VerbalAspect.pdf


Keep in mind that all of this is controversial.
Last edited by C. S. Bartholomew on Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

Timothée
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Re: Where to start with Greek verbs?

Post by Timothée »

You will probably want first to understand how Greek verb functions. Scan a few pages of grammar to make sure that you know which tempora, modi, and diatheses there are, and what are the main senses each of them adds. Then you might go on to general tempus markings and read through the personal endings, both primary and secondary. The reason for this procedure is to give you general idea of what Greek verb is like.

After that it will be logical to acquaint oneself with each of the aforeseen one by one. It pays to work oneself through a primer. Using that you will peruse a few points of grammar each lesson. If the primer is worth its salt, it has been arranged so as to support the learning process muchly. But although the verb is central in Greek, it is unwise to ignore the rest of grammar.

Generally the thematic verbs are learnt first. After having a good grasp of them, it is relatively easy to move on to the athematic ones. Quite often primers are arranged in this way. The commonest forms of some really current irregular verbs are regularly given early (especially the verb 'to be').

Along advancing in learning Greek verbs, you might try to learn a few of the paradigms by heart and memorise new ones every now and then. In addition, you are advised to try and learn principal parts of common verbs as they appear in your primer.

Don't be discouraged—this process will take time.

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jeidsath
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Re: Where to start with Greek verbs?

Post by jeidsath »

I discovered the following method for learning verbs once I started reading Smyth. You can break apart any verb form to memorize into the following.

Principal part
Augment
Reduplication
Stem
Tense-suffix
Thematic vowel
Primary/Secondary personal ending

The active indicative pluperfect 3rd person plural of λύω is ἐλέλυκεμεν:

ε (aug.) + λε (redup.) + λυ (perfect stem) + κε (tense-suffix) + (no thematic vowel) + μεν (secondary personal ending, 3rd person plural)

So, to memorize the aorist active indicative for λύω:

Augment: ε [aorist generally takes an agument, which is ε before a consonant]
Reduplication: none [aorist generally takes no reduplication]
Stem: λυ [from the principal parts list]
Tense-suffix: σα [for vowel verbs]
Personal-ending type: secondary [the aorist is an historical tense]
Personal-endings: (-, ς, (ελυσ-)ε, μεν, τε, ν) [note that the 3rd person singular tense-suffix lacks α]

All of this may seem somewhat unrelated to speaking a language and alien to viva voce direct methods which I prefer, but in this case the mental algorithm is enough of a time-saver compared to brute force memorization through repetition.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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mwh
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Re: Where to start with Greek verbs?

Post by mwh »

You’re also learning Latin, right? And you started with the present tense? Then I’d do the same with Greek, with the present tense of a simple –ω verb such as λύω or παύω. Set the Latin and the Greek side by side and compare them. It’s easy to see what they have in common and what they don’t. What textbook/grammar are you using?

Stirling and Timothée give good advice if you’re linguistically oriented, and sooner or later you will need to get on top of all that—ideally at the outset, with an initial overview of the entire verb system, as Timothée recommends. But I suspect you’re too eager for that, and you can build it up bit by bit, tense by tense and mood by mood (Greek has optative as well as subjunctive) and voice by voice (Greek has a middle voice as well as active and passive) and gradually put it all together as an integrated system. That way you needn’t put off reading until you’ve mastered it all.

So I suggest matching whatever you’re doing with Latin, and comparing.

Edit. jeidsath gives some serviceable practical hints for analyzing verb forms. Whatever works for you.

ThatGuyWhoLovesLatin
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Re: Where to start with Greek verbs?

Post by ThatGuyWhoLovesLatin »

mwh wrote:You’re also learning Latin, right? And you started with the present tense? Then I’d do the same with Greek, with the present tense of a simple –ω verb such as λύω or παύω. Set the Latin and the Greek side by side and compare them. It’s easy to see what they have in common and what they don’t. What textbook/grammar are you using?

Stirling and Timothée give good advice if you’re linguistically oriented, and sooner or later you will need to get on top of all that—ideally at the outset, with an initial overview of the entire verb system, as Timothée recommends. But I suspect you’re too eager for that, and you can build it up bit by bit, tense by tense and mood by mood (Greek has optative as well as subjunctive) and voice by voice (Greek has a middle voice as well as active and passive) and gradually put it all together as an integrated system. That way you needn’t put off reading until you’ve mastered it all.

So I suggest matching whatever you’re doing with Latin, and comparing.

Edit. jeidsath gives some serviceable practical hints for analyzing verb forms. Whatever works for you.
Yeah I'm learning Latin too. I'm mainly using Wheelock. For the verb forms, I mainly just watched LatinTutorial (a YouTube channel) on repeat until I could speak the forms. I actually have noticed some similarities between the two languages present active indicative.
Last edited by ThatGuyWhoLovesLatin on Fri Sep 16, 2016 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

ThatGuyWhoLovesLatin
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Re: Where to start with Greek verbs?

Post by ThatGuyWhoLovesLatin »

jeidsath wrote:I discovered the following method for learning verbs once I started reading Smyth. You can break apart any verb form to memorize into the following.

Principal part
Augment
Reduplication
Stem
Tense-suffix
Thematic vowel
Primary/Secondary personal ending

The active indicative pluperfect 3rd person plural of λύω is ἐλέλυκεμεν:

ε (aug.) + λε (redup.) + λυ (perfect stem) + κε (tense-suffix) + (no thematic vowel) + μεν (secondary personal ending, 3rd person plural)

So, to memorize the aorist active indicative for λύω:

Augment: ε [aorist generally takes an agument, which is ε before a consonant]
Reduplication: none [aorist generally takes no reduplication]
Stem: λυ [from the principal parts list]
Tense-suffix: σα [for vowel verbs]
Personal-ending type: secondary [the aorist is an historical tense]
Personal-endings: (-, ς, (ελυσ-)ε, μεν, τε, ν) [note that the 3rd person singular tense-suffix lacks α]

All of this may seem somewhat unrelated to speaking a language and alien to viva voce direct methods which I prefer, but in this case the mental algorithm is enough of a time-saver compared to brute force memorization through repetition.
That actually sounds like the perfect system in Latin (at least in the active forms). It actually seems quite logical.

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Re: Where to start with Greek verbs?

Post by donhamiltontx »

Wilfred Major of LSU and Byron Stayskal of Western Washington offer another look at the Greek verb “problem” in a paper they published in the Fall of 2011, “Teaching Greek Verbs: A Manifesto.” The title is a bit theatrical, IMHO, but they have some helpful things to say, I think.

tcl.camws.org/sites/default/files/MajorAndStayskal_0.pdf

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TerryLewis
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Re: Where to start with Greek verbs?

Post by TerryLewis »

donhamiltontx wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:51 pm Wilfred Major of LSU and Byron Stayskal of Western Washington offer another look at the Greek verb “problem” in a paper they published in the Fall of 2011, “Teaching Greek Verbs: A Manifesto.” The title is a bit theatrical, IMHO, but they have some helpful things to say, I think.
http://tcl.camws.org/sites/default/files/MajorAndStayskal_0.pdf
Hello donhamiltontx,

I'm just planning to start with Greek vocabulary in general. Are there any easy guides and tutorials?
I learn Latin as well. But one of the community members just prompted me to learn Greek in addition to Latin, as it would be indeed quite a helpful tool for understanding Greek theatre outcomes and especially texts (quite a challenge to learn both languages I guess for me, a retired professor of theater).

Best,
Terry

donhamiltontx
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Re: Where to start with Greek verbs?

Post by donhamiltontx »

TerryLewis wrote: Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:06 am
I'm just planning to start with Greek vocabulary in general. Are there any easy guides and tutorials?
"Easy"? How to learn Ancient Greek vocabulary is something of a vexed issue, but the short answer is no. However, there are places to start and ways to go about it. I think the soundest and surest way is to pick up an Ancient Greek textbook and work your way through it, committing its vocabulary to memory as you go along.

A discussion about texts appears on the forum here: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=66336

FWIW, I used Reading Greek, produced by the JACT, and I was content with the results. PM me if you want to know more about this JACT stuff.

For getting started, helpful to IMHO are the web page of Charles Weiss of Cambridge University, which may prove useful for Latin, too, and a web page at Cornell University called "Let's Review Greek", https://www.cornellcollege.edu/classica ... easy.shtml, especially the "Easy Reading Passages: Myths and Fables."

To give you some sense of where I am coming from when it comes to learning languages, I should say that I am American and studied Spanish in high school, German, French and Latin in college, and Ancient Greek on my own. I retain the ability to read Spanish and French reasonably well, but I can not speak or write any of them very well. My Ancient Greek is nowhere near what I want it to be. I don't believe that there is any one way to learn a language.

No doubt I have said way more than you wanted to know, but, I hope, not less.

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