Dickey's Greek Prose Composition

[ailuros]

hopefully this is the right forum, but i was informed yesterday by one amazon (not that kind) that eleanor dickey's an introduction to the analysis and composition of greek prose will be shipped on june 30. i am looking most forward to this book (which i ordered in 2015), and suspect that it will be of great help to me. she's seems like one serious scholar. a great weekend to all!

[seneca2008]

I ordered my copy earlier this week and allegedly it is in the post!

This extract from the preface seems important for Textkit readers:

"To derive maximum benefit from the exercises, the relevant vocabulary and grammatical forms should be memorized before each chapter is undertaken, so that the sentences can be done without consultation of reference works. Students starting to learn prose composition are often misled into believing that no memorization is necessary, but such deception is ultimately in no-one’s interests: the rules of Greek grammar and syntax are so complex that it is impossible even to know what to look up unless one has done a fair amount of memorization, and looking up all the vocabulary, grammar, and syntax required for even a single sentence takes so long that discouragement is inevitable and very few sentences can be done. The author, as a student, wasted years over the non-memorization method and later wished bitterly that someone had told her how much more e cient it would be just to sit down and learn things by heart; it would have been the single most useful tip anyone could have given her, so she hereby passes it on."

My underlining.

I like this caveat printed in large letters on its own page:

"IMPORTANT NOTE
Almost every rule presented in this book has exceptions, most of which are not mentioned."

[ailuros]

i couldn't agree more with the section you underlined, seneca2008. i'm totally old school when it comes to classical languages: (i) rote memorization of morphology and vocabulary (which is like constructing a lovely building in your mind); (ii) review (then more and more review); (iii) slow, careful reading and analysis of real greek prose (can i accurately explain the function of each word in the sentence?) in preparation for the faster reading (with greater comprehension) that will come with time and practice; and (iv) learning greek history (social, political, economic, military, and so forth). my hope is that this work will create a firm foundation for going on to textual analysis and the deeper stuff.

[Paul Derouda]

I, on the other hand, am in almost total disagreement with that statement. While I agree that understanding the grammatical terminology is necessary to be able to use reference works (since there are no natives we can ask questions), I don't believe it's possible to learn a language by rote learning. I don't say rote learning is always useless (it might be useful for seldom encountered words for example, such as Brobdingnagian, fata morgana, volitation or nystagmus, or for distinguishing "false friends" such as lie/lay/lain vs. lay/laid/laid), but in general what really works is exposure to the real thing, and lots of it – actual language produced by natives. For dead languages, I don't see how that could be different, except that there's no one to talk with and you have to limit yourself to texts.

That said, I'm not adverse to prose composition, but to be able to profit from that you either have to have a very good key or, preferably, a good teacher correcting you. Otherwise you're just repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

[Paul Derouda]

This said, if you choose another method than my "exposure to the real thing, and lots of it", any word in the language is going to be one that is "seldom encountered", and in that case, rote learning will be the next best thing.

[jeidsath]

I ordered the book earlier when Hylander made the recommendation. It still hasn't shipped, but by chance I looked through the preview this morning. In the introduction she says that it is built on N&H, but with a more limited vocabulary (to reduce memorization work, apparently).

[ailuros]

my methods are limited to classical languages. i would not learn a living language in the same fashion, but ag is dead and finite (barring future discoveries). i'm all for reading real ag all the time (the careful analysis of sentences must be spent on real ag only). but there's no way to even begin to read ag (accurately) without first getting to know at least some of the names and numbers of the players (didn't we all memorize the ag alphabet?), and then learning more. in my opinion, that's the price one must pay for classical languages. no one gets through the door without first doing the work. toodles!

[seneca2008]

I don't believe it's possible to learn a language by rote learning

Neither does Dickey. That's not what she is saying. She is talking about learning prose composition, which she has taught successfully for some years. I was going to paraphrase what she wrote but it seems clear enough to me.

[Paul Derouda]

Yes, I suppose it's a bit different for Greek, since even in the elementary stage there's no one to tell you what you're doing wrong, unless you happen to be really lucky and have someone like Dickey teaching you.

Still, when I think about where and how I learned English, I think it had very little to with English class, grammar, syntax or memorization, and a lot with playing computer games as a kid and reading books as a teenager and as an adult. But although I don't think class had a lot to do with me learning English, the part there that probably did some good was English composition.

That said, I thank ailuros (a native English speaker, I presume) for a new word in my vocabulary: toodles!

[seneca2008]

Paul. Again I think you are confusing two things. Learning to write Greek prose is completely different from learning a modern language. The extant exemplars for Greek are almost all in the highest possible literary register. I doubt most people aspire to write comparably in a modern language. Perhaps I overstate the difference?

let us not collapse this argument into what's the best way of learning Greek. People are different and respond to different approaches differently. I bet that Hylander has done more than his share of memorisation and it shows.

[Paul Derouda]

No, I don't think I really disagree as much as it seems. I'm just too tired to read Greek so ventilate on learning strategies instead.

The book looks nice on preview and isn't very expensive. Does it have a proper key? Are the exercises and answers such that you notice your own mistakes and able to correct yourself without a teacher?

[seneca2008]

"As this book is intended to be helpful to those who have no access to a teacher as well as to those who do, a partial answer key is provided; it is hoped that this compromise will make the book useful to the independent learner without spoiling its e ectiveness in class settings. Generally speaking the answer key covers the first half of each practice exercise, the first ten sentences in each chapter, and the first analysis exercise. In certain chapters, however, the nature of the exercises has necessitated a dfferent distribution of answers in order to assure that a student relying exclusively on the exercises to which answers are provided will be able to learn successfully."

[ailuros]

i hope to be visiting this board for help with, and also perhaps to share other viable solutions to those exercises without a key. i genuinely look forward to that. very glad you enjoyed "toodles," paul derouda! quite a fun word to say. it may be british in origin(?). will have to check on that, although seneca2008 may already have that answer. and yes, i'm a native english speaker (those united states; philadelphia). let us all now praise the end of the week!

[Victor]

It'll be interesting to see how it compares with Sidgwick. Dickey is an eminently sensible, plain-speaking teacher and I think she will have pitched things just right for the present market, which is somewhat different from Sidgwick's.
Her remarks about wasting years on the non-memorization method are interesting. They show that even the ablest students can be bamboozled into following regressively progressive learning approaches for a while if the prevailing pedagogical wisdom asserts itself strongly enough.

[MarkAntony198337]

ἀπόλλυται

[daivid]

When I read this thread last night I was convinced that Dickey's advice was unworkable. Every time I have tried to learn anything by rote I can get it into medium term memory but then after a few days it drops out completely. On top that, I could not see how one could systematically learn by rote something as disorganized as Greek grammar.

Having slept on it, I think I completely misunderstood what she is advocating. I think I am not alone in this and that some of Dickey's supporters here also seem to misunderstand her.

She is saying that if you go straight into the exercises referring back to the explanation of the grammar rules as you work the rules will only go into short term memory and will be quickly forgotten.

She is saying before looking at the exercises learn the specific rules that the exercise is focusing on and then do the entire exercise without again referring to the rules.

Hence the idea is first get the rules into medium memory and then do the exercise to fix the rules into long term memory.

How well she implements this technique I don't know but the basic idea IMO makes sense.

[ailuros]

her telling phrases are that she "bitterly regrets" the lost efficiency by simply "sitting down and learning things by heart."

[seneca2008]

Every time I have tried to learn anything by rote I can get it into medium term memory but then after a few days it drops out completely.

It is for this very reason that she advocates constant revision and testing.

I agree that this thread has turned into a hook on which all the old arguments about how to learn Greek which have been well rehearsed elsewhere are ventilated. It has little to do with Dickey. My copy has arrived and I will start work on it this week. The first section of the book consists of exercises about accentuation. I can imagine this will deter many readers. I had the misfortune as an undergraduate to be taught Greek by someone who did not have a good grasp of the rules of accentuation and therefore was not taught it in a systematic way from the outset. It has taken me a long time to recover from this initial handicap.

[ailuros]

i was horrified to learn that some teachers of recent times have their ag students ignore accentuation altogether. a phd student in classics at a local university from whom i took a bit of tutoring told me that several students in his programs had this issue and still struggled mightily with picking it up (on top of everything else expected of one in the graduate study of classics, which is a whole lot). really, learning a couple of not-particulary-diificult rules at the outset - and getting them down by heart(!) - is all one needs to get going with ag accents.

indeed, i think addressing this deficiency was in part the genesis of philomen probert's recent treatise on ag accentuation. per her university bio profile, eleanor dickey is married to probert, so maybe that is a good way to tie up this thread, so to speak!

[Victor]

For what it is worth, I myself learned all the forms of the noun, the adjective, and the verb by reading interlineary translations, having impressed them on my memory simply by having seen them again and again within the context of real sentences.

That's incredible.

Having slept on it, I think I completely misunderstood what she is advocating.

I don't think you've completely misunderstood it; you've just interpreted it in a way that makes it palatable to you.

[Hylander]

i was horrified to learn that some teachers of recent times have their ag students ignore accentuation altogether. a phd student in classics at a local university from whom i took a bit of tutoring told me that several students in his programs had this issue and still struggled mightily with picking it up

Then you may be horrified to learn that that was my experience starting Greek in 1960. I'm generally familiar enough with the system, enough to distinguish imperfects from pluperfects , and interrogatives from indefinites, but I still don't always know off-hand the accentuation of specific nouns and adjectives, and I'm too old to learn now. I don't feel that it presents a big problem, though, although the shame and embarrassment weigh heavily on me, now that everyone knows my dirty little secret.

I never made it to the graduate level--I went in the army after college.

[seneca2008]

Hylander I am reassured that you don't find it a big problem given your expertise. Perhaps I should stop worrying about this aspect.

[ailuros]

wow, hylander. i am shocked and kind of horrified. that surprises me for 1960. it seems a cruel trick to tell a student not to bother. we were most definitely dinged on exams for wrong accentuation, so one had no choice, really.

it was clearly explained to us that this was really about quantity/pitch anyways, not stress, but stress is what everyone used in reading aloud in class, and remains my method today. to the best of my abilities i try to memorize the accent together with the definition, in part by silently saying the word in my head (using stress, wrongly, but there it is).

it's impossible to keep them all in there all the time. any attempt at composition requires me to double check and i always find mistakes. and strangely, like spelling certain words in my native tongue, there are some ag words i always get wrong, no matter how many times i check the accent.

but for reading ag prose i agree that it's not often a big deal. φώς/φως (sorry; no circumflex on ipad) is not likely to be troublesome in context whether or not one can keep their accents straight. can't say i think much about accents per se while reading. still, my suggestion to any beginner would be to learn the accent (or lack thereof) with the word. it also can help form good habits, like being aware of short alphas in words like υγίεια (sorry; no rough breathing sign), which will come in handy later.

all that said, your command of classical languages is 10x my own, so who am i to say? i didn't go to graduate school either for classics, and my undergraduate studies therein we're somewhat compressed (i got a late start and had no previous ag or latin).

[daivid]

Having slept on it, I think I completely misunderstood what she is advocating.

I don't think you've completely misunderstood it; you've just interpreted it in a way that makes it palatable to you.

Given that my two interpretations of what she is advocating are diametrically different there can be be no doubt that I misunderstood her at some point. You seem to be saying I was right first time but it is now that I am misunderstanding her. I am curious to know why?

[Paul Derouda]

For what it is worth, I myself learned all the forms of the noun, the adjective, and the verb by reading interlineary translations, having impressed them on my memory simply by having seen them again and again within the context of real sentences.

That's incredible.

Sounds quite credible to me. The only problem of this approach is that studying ancient Greek is more than just understanding the language: it's also about reading and understanding all the secondary literature, and that's difficult if you don't know declination a word belongs to etc., even if you can conjugate it. Also, if you read Homer like this (like I did) it's difficult to keep the different dialect forms apart (Ionian, Aeolic forms, etc.).

About accents: I'll never forgive the earlier Teach Yourself Greek (the new one is a different, better book). It was my first introduction to Greek, and it advocated ignoring the accents, which I did. I still find it difficult not to ignore them. Don't. But this is nothing new, there was a time around 1800 when even (I think) Oxford University Press didn't print the accents; luckily they soon came back to their senses. Sorry, I don't remember this exactly, or even where I read it.

[Victor]

Given that my two interpretations of what she is advocating are diametrically different there can be be no doubt that I misunderstood her at some point. You seem to be saying I was right first time but it is now that I am misunderstanding her. I am curious to know why?

Let's not wrangle about this too long. What Dickey is saying is elementary stuff. She's advising students to memorize the "relevant vocabulary and grammatical forms" before they start work on each chapter.

There's really nothing to misunderstand about such an instruction. You spend some time looking at a list of Greek words set alongside their English equivalents, and at lists of the relevant paradigms showing their pattern of inflection, and you try and soak up and retain as much as possible of what you're looking at. With the right technique, a fair amount can be remembered.

Known cognates or, failing that, mnemonics, can help with the memorization of vocabulary. With paradigms it's a question of identifying patterns and focusing on the essential differences in stems and endings. If you can learn to give most of your attention to only those parts you really need to attend to in the serried ranks of words laid out page after page, the whole exercise will become less intimidating and, more importantly, easier.

[daivid]

Let's not wrangle about this too long. What Dickey is saying is elementary stuff. She's advising students to memorize the "relevant vocabulary and grammatical forms" before they start work on each chapter.

There's really nothing to misunderstand about such an instruction. You spend some time looking at a list of Greek words set alongside their English equivalents, and at lists of the relevant paradigms showing their pattern of inflection, and you try and soak up and retain as much as possible of what you're looking at. With the right technique, a fair amount can be remembered.

Known cognates or, failing that, mnemonics, can help with the memorization of vocabulary. With paradigms it's a question of identifying patterns and focusing on the essential differences in stems and endings. If you can learn to give most of your attention to only those parts you really need to attend to in the serried ranks of words laid out page after page, the whole exercise will become less intimidating and, more importantly, easier.

If Dicky is really advocating this (and I don't think she is) - memorization for its own sake rather than as an adjunct to more sophisticated learning technique then I can only say for me it does not work.

[Victor]

If Dicky is really advocating this (and I don't think she is) - memorization for its own sake...

You're right - she isn't. Neither was I.
She's giving readers the benefit of her experience. I was trying to give you the benefit of mine. You're free to take it or leave it.

[daivid]

If Dicky is really advocating this (and I don't think she is) - memorization for its own sake...

You're right - she isn't. Neither was I.
She's giving readers the benefit of her experience. I was trying to give you the benefit of mine. You're free to take it or leave it.

I had a feeling that there was something wrong even as as was typing those words but I merely qualified them rather than amending them. Yes of course no one does memorization for its own sake and you are right to pick me up on that. What I intended to say was "memorization and rote learning in isolation.

What she says in the book is not about memorization in isolation. The first words of the quote below are To derive maximum benefit from the exercises .... I don't know what she thinks about memorization in isolation but is clearly only an auxiliary that you will find it in this book - why else would it be called Greek Prose Composition rather Memorization of Greek Grammar?

We are all here mostly basing what we think on personal experience so it is fine you base your advice on your own. If you have found memorization in isolation works for you I am glad. Don't assume that my skepticism of memorization in isolation is not also based on experience. I have spent many many hours learning Greek and much of that has been simple memorization but my experience tells me if I don't use what I memorize I lose it.

People differ but Ancient Greek textbooks do not reflect this.

[seneca2008]

I have spent many many hours learning Greek and much of that has been simple memorization but my experience tells me if I don't use what I memorize I lose it.

Dickie agrees with you. She says:

"As necessary as memorization is consolidation. It is an inescapable fact that for most people, Greek grammatical forms and syntactic rules have a tendency to depart rapidly from the mind soon after being learned. One must simply accept this fact and learn the material repeatedly; to this end there are review exercises scattered throughout the book, and it is a good idea to re-memorize the vocabulary and forms of the relevant chapters before doing these exercises. One way to improve one’s retention rate is to be scrupulous about correct accentuation, because once one has learned each form with its proper accent, one knows the form itself considerably more solidly than one does when one has learned only the form. For this reason a brief explanation of the accent rules and exercises in their use are provided, and all users of this book who do not already have a firm grasp of the accent system are encouraged to do these exercises before progressing to the chapters proper."

[daivid]

I have spent many many hours learning Greek and much of that has been simple memorization but my experience tells me if I don't use what I memorize I lose it.

Dickie agrees with you. She says:

"As necessary as memorization is consolidation. It is an inescapable fact that for most people, Greek grammatical forms and syntactic rules have a tendency to depart rapidly from the mind soon after being learned. One must simply accept this fact and learn the material repeatedly; to this end there are review exercises scattered throughout the book, and it is a good idea to re-memorize the vocabulary and forms of the relevant chapters before doing these exercises. One way to improve one’s retention rate is to be scrupulous about correct accentuation, because once one has learned each form with its proper accent, one knows the form itself considerably more solidly than one does when one has learned only the form. For this reason a brief explanation of the accent rules and exercises in their use are provided, and all users of this book who do not already have a firm grasp of the accent system are encouraged to do these exercises before progressing to the chapters proper."

I suspected that that was what she was going to say. Thanks for confirming it.

[Victor]

I had a feeling that there was something wrong even as as was typing those words but I merely qualified them rather than amending them. Yes of course no one does memorization for its own sake and you are right to pick me up on that. What I intended to say was "memorization and rote learning in isolation.

What she says in the book is not about memorization in isolation. The first words of the quote below are To derive maximum benefit from the exercises .... I don't know what she thinks about memorization in isolation but is clearly only an auxiliary that you will find it in this book - why else would it be called Greek Prose Composition rather Memorization of Greek Grammar?

We are all here mostly basing what we think on personal experience so it is fine you base your advice on your own. If you have found memorization in isolation works for you I am glad. Don't assume that my skepticism of memorization in isolation is not also based on experience. I have spent many many hours learning Greek and much of that has been simple memorization but my experience tells me if I don't use what I memorize I lose it.

People differ but Ancient Greek textbooks do not reflect this.

No, you're still wrong; I said nothing about "memorization in isolation"; memorization of paradigms and vocaabulary only makes sense as a prelude to reading and writing Greek.

And I'm not basing my advice merely on my own experience, but that of many other classicists as well- the overwhelming majority of them in fact; at least of those who did actually manage to acquire a decent knowledge of Latin and Greek.

[daivid]

No, you're still wrong; I said nothing about "memorization in isolation"; memorization of paradigms and vocaabulary only makes sense as a prelude to reading and writing Greek.

So do you mean that we agree? What I mean by putting what you have learned to use is with little or no time delay.

And I'm not basing my advice merely on my own experience, but that of many other classicists as well- the overwhelming majority of them in fact; at least of those who did actually manage to acquire a decent knowledge of Latin and Greek.

Yes clearly the people who have succeed have succeed using the teaching materials and methods available and so they will produce the kind of textbooks that worked for them and teach using methods by which they were taught themselves. But what of those who fail? I have tried to find research on why people who start studying Greek fail and it maybe that is because I am looking in the wrong place but maybe that is because no one sees that as a problem.
EDIT
What I just wrote above is wrong:
Wilfred E. Major, On Not Teaching Greek," (Classical Journal 103 [2007] 93-98).
I have yet to get hold of that so I don't know what position he takes but the important think is that he is asking the question.

[Paul Derouda]

I decided to order this book as well and received it yesterday. It might be interested in cross-checking some exercises that don't have a key with others.

The book looks good, as far I've been able to read. At the beginning of each chapter, Dickey assigns a zillion pages of Smyth for reading before starting the chapter. I'm sure the method is effective for someone who has all that time, but I've found been able to read the book profitably without opening Smyth.

[ailuros]

i love that she starts each chapter that way. she means business!

[jeidsath]

I received the book the other day. The exercises are all very good, though very simple. I've been going through it chapter by chapter orally. There are a few small errors (accents mostly). Dickey plays it very safe by not providing too much of her own prose. An appendix contains a composition by M.L. West that I will post to the board if I get the chance to type it up.