Archimedes' quote

Here you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get help with a difficult passage of Greek, and more.
Post Reply
User avatar
mingshey
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1338
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:38 am
Location: Seoul
Contact:

Archimedes' quote

Post by mingshey » Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:09 am

Hello, everyone!
It's been a long time since I visited textkit.

I find one of Archimedes' quotes "Give me a place to stand on, and I will move the Earth" presented in Greek in some variations on the internet.

I first came across "δός μοι πᾶ στῶ, καὶ τὰν γᾶν κινάσω" first, and then "δῶς μοι πᾶ στῶ, καὶ τὰν γᾶν κινάσω" or "δός μοι πᾶ στῶ, καὶ τὰν γᾶν κινήσω", etc. Since I know little Doric I couldn't judge between them if one of them is in the correct Doric form or it's a mixture of dialects.
LSJ doen't give much information about Doric conjugation forms.
So I looked for the source of the quote and found Pappus of Alexandria, "Synagoge(Collections)", Book VIII, and there it was written, "δός μοί (φησι) ποῦ στῶ καὶ κινῶ τὴν γῆν." Although I'm not qualified to tell, it sounds like Attic.

Can sombody tell between them?

Thank you in advance.

P.S. Maybe the Doric form is a back composition from the Attic in Pappus of Alexandria's work. I wonder if there's an ancient quote in Doric form.

P.P.S. A quote* goes, "ἔλεγε δὲ καὶ Δωριστὶ φωνῇ Συρακουσίᾳ, Πᾷ βῶ καὶ χαριστίωνι τὰν γᾶν κινήσω πᾶσαν;"
And he said in the Syracusian Doric tongue, "shall I go somewhere and move the whole earth with the lifting tool?"

*Diodorus Siculus Hist., Bibliotheca historica
Book 26, chapter 18, section 1, line 34
Last edited by mingshey on Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

Hylander
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1501
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:16 pm

Re: Archimedes' quote

Post by Hylander » Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:45 am

The version you quoted from Pappus seems to be Attic. The other versions look more or less Doric. According to Wikipedia, there's a version earlier than Pappus in Diodorus Siculus. But Archimedes died around 212 BCE, and Diodorus was writing about 150 later, more or less. It's really impossible to know for certain what form Archimedes' remark actually took. Although Archimedes was Syracusan and would have spoken a Doric dialect, it's possible that his remark was distorted in retelling over a long period of time, and that in the retelling it was reshaped to sound more like standard literary Doric, or, as you suggest, an Attic version was recast in a Doric form.

I think you also have to reckon with the possibility that, like many quotations attributed to famous people in antiquity as well as today, Archimedes never uttered this sentence at all.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Archimedes

User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
Posts: 3400
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California
Contact:

Re: Archimedes' quote

Post by bedwere » Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:04 am

Forgive my curiosity: which is more Doric, εὕρηκα or ηὕρηκα? Neither?

Hylander
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1501
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:16 pm

Re: Archimedes' quote

Post by Hylander » Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:41 am

Probably ευρηκα (with smooth breathing/no aspiration). The famous quote is apparently from Plutarch, about 400 years later, and Plutarch apparently used the form εὕρηκα, according to LSJ:
“εὕρηκα” Archim. ap. Plu.2.1094c:—
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... u(ri%2Fskw

LSJ doesn't give a Doric form in -α-. Not every η in Attic-Ionic was originally α. η was in the phonemic repertory of common Greek, and survived in Doric dialects and other non Attic-Ionic dialects. The -η- in εὕρηκα was apparently a verbal suffix not derived from long α, according to Chantraine, Morphologie historique du grec (p. 320).

C. S. Bartholomew
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1248
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:03 pm

Re: Archimedes' quote

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:08 am

mingshey wrote:Hello, everyone!
It's been a long time since I visited textkit.

I find one of Archimedes' quotes "Give me a place to stand on, and I will move the Earth" presented in Greek in some variations on the internet.

I first came across "δός μοι πᾶ στῶ, καὶ τὰν γᾶν κινάσω" first, and then "δῶς μοι πᾶ στῶ, καὶ τὰν γᾶν κινάσω" or "δός μοι πᾶ στῶ, καὶ τὰν γᾶν κινήσω", etc. Since I know little Doric I couldn't judge between them if one of them is in the correct Doric form or it's a mixture of dialects.
LSJ doen't give much information about Doric conjugation forms.
So I looked for the source of the quote and found Pappus of Alexandria, "Synagoge(Collections)", Book VIII, and there it was written, "δός μοί (φησι) ποῦ στῶ καὶ κινῶ τὴν γῆν." Although I'm not qualified to tell, it sounds like Attic.

Can sombody tell between them?
I liked the question and while I was thinking about it you got your answer.

In addition, all the forms with the exception of δῶς and κινάσω show up in Attic Tragedy. The ὴ to ὰ variation is common in Tragic chorus. Your using TLG so you all ready know that your www "Doric" versions do not appear in TLG-E.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

User avatar
mingshey
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1338
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:38 am
Location: Seoul
Contact:

Re: Archimedes' quote

Post by mingshey » Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:42 am

Thank you guys for your replies.

The Diodorus version might have to be translated, "shall I go anywhere, and move the whole earth with the lever?"
(πᾷ (πη) -> where, as indirect interrogative doesn't work well with the question mark...)

βῶ (βαίνω) go, is used to mean "stand" in perfect form, i.e. βέβηκα, but can we think in this case, since it is in a question and imply some indefinite place to arrive (and complete the action of going), fot it to imply that usage? - Although I don't think we need to, some www translations(wikiquote) opt to use "stand" rather than "go", whence this question.

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2887
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Archimedes' quote

Post by mwh » Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:41 pm

The quote in Diodorus, given as “πᾷ βῶ καὶ χαριστίωνι τὰν γᾶν κινήσω πᾶσαν;” will mean “Where am I to go and move the whole earth with a charistion?” (πᾷ as first word has to mean “Where?” interrogative.) κινήσω aor.subj. in parallel with βῶ; deliberative subjunctives. It's expressly said to be in Syracusan Doric: Δωριστὶ φωνῇ Συρακουσίᾳ, “in Doric with a Syracusan accent.” This will have governed the form in which it’s transmitted, which will have no authority in itself. The Doric features amount to very little: πᾷ and τὰν γᾶν, all perfectly conventional.

A χαριστίων is reported as being “an instrument of Archimedes for weighing” “or for lifting” (LSJ). Here it must be a lever, obviously.

The version in Pappus, "δός μοί (φησι) ποῦ στῶ καὶ κινῶ τὴν γῆν” is indeed atticized, as you thought. Converted back into Doric it comes out as δός μοι πᾷ στῶ καὶ τὰν γᾶν κινῶ, and it means (literally) “Give me where I am to stand and move the earth,” i.e. “Give me a place to stand and move the earth.” στῶ is aorist subjunctive, and κινῶ I take to be present subjunctive, the difference being aspectual: “Give me a place to stand (to take up a standing position) and to move (to set about moving) the earth.”

I’ve always thought of the quote as being δός μοι πᾷ στῶ καὶ τὰν γᾶν κινήσω and as meaning “Give me a place to stand, and I’ll move the earth,” κινήσω not subjunctive but future. But on this evidence it appears that that’s a banalization of the Pappus version with present subjunctive.

Of the variants you cite, δῶς is a mistake (I think) for δός, while κινάσω is an ignorant hyperdoricism; the Doric form is κινήσω, as in Attic.

So we have the Diodorus version, “Where am I to go and shift the whole earth with a lever?” and the Pappus version, “Give me where I am to stand and shift the earth.” Both amount to the same thing, of course, in terms of mechanics. As Hylander hints, it’s most likely to be apocryphal. But who knows?

As to the eureka moment, it’s very hard to say whether ευρηκα or ηυρηκα comes closer to representing what the word would have sounded like coming out of a 3rd-century Syracusan genius’s mouth.

User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
Posts: 2640
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Archimedes' quote

Post by jeidsath » Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:57 pm

As to the eureka moment, it’s very hard to say whether ευρηκα or ηυρηκα comes closer to representing what the word would have sounded like coming out of a 3rd-century Syracusan genius’s mouth.
It might depend on the temperature of the bath.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.

User avatar
mingshey
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1338
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:38 am
Location: Seoul
Contact:

Re: Archimedes' quote

Post by mingshey » Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:33 pm

mwh:
πᾷ as first word has to mean “Where?” interrogative.
Now I see there's a separate entry for πῇ. I thought πᾷ was some Doric variant of πη.
How stupid I am after all the years' experience to not have learned how(ὅπη) to look up the dictionary!!! :oops:
Thanks a lot for all the clarifications!
Last edited by mingshey on Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

C. S. Bartholomew
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1248
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:03 pm

Re: Archimedes' quote

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:46 pm

mingshey wrote:mwh:
πᾷ as first word has to mean “Where?” interrogative.
Now I see there's a separate entry for πῇ. I thought πᾷ was some Doric variant of πη.
mwh wrote:The quote in Diodorus, given as “πᾷ βῶ καὶ χαριστίωνι τὰν γᾶν κινήσω πᾶσαν;” will mean “Where am I to go and move the whole earth with a charistion?” (πᾷ as first word has to mean “Where?” interrogative.)
πη
πη, Dor. Adv.
somewhere, anywhere, ἄλλη πη Berl.Sitzb.1927. 167 (Cyrene).
indirect interrog. πῆ, where, ἴσατι πῆ ἐστι Supp.Epigr.4.70 (Locr. Epizeph.); cf. sq. B. 11.2. (Panhellenic η and no iota, cf. πήποκα.)

— Diogenes LSJ
Unless I am mistaken, Michael's comment applies to the quote in Diodorus. The issue being the clause initial position of πᾷ. So your suggested reading of the other "Doric" renderings isn't compromised.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2887
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Archimedes' quote

Post by mwh » Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:41 am

Everyone has understood me correctly on this small and simple point, but Stirling’s confirmatory post introduces an unnecessary wrinkle which should perhaps be ironed out. The LSJ entry he reproduces is on πη (and πῆ), allegedly Doric but unexpectedly with eta not alpha (see the Ajax thread), citing two inscriptions from Doric-speaking regions. I’m not at all sure I believe in this, but in any case this entry is irrelevant to us, and we should ignore it. The relevant LSJ entry is not this one but the following one, on πῃ (enclitic) and πῇ (interrogative), the corresponding Doric forms naturally being πᾳ and πᾷ. These are all well attested, and as LSJ notes, they’re often written without the iota. It is this last form, πᾷ or πᾶ, that we are to recognize in the Archimedes quote.

But this is a distraction. The most interesting thing, to my mind, is that if I read the testimonies correctly, neither of them has the familiar phrase “and I’ll move the earth.” It looks to me, on the evidence presented, as if that originated in taking κινήσω as a future instead of as a deliberative subjunctive coordinated with βῶ/στῶ.

C. S. Bartholomew
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1248
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:03 pm

Re: Archimedes' quote

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:45 pm

mwh wrote:Everyone has understood me correctly on this small and simple point, but Stirling’s confirmatory post introduces an unnecessary wrinkle which should perhaps be ironed out. The LSJ entry he reproduces is on πη (and πῆ), allegedly Doric but unexpectedly with eta not alpha (see the Ajax thread), citing two inscriptions from Doric-speaking regions. I’m not at all sure I believe in this, but in any case this entry is irrelevant to us, and we should ignore it. The relevant LSJ entry is not this one but the following one, on πῃ (enclitic) and πῇ (interrogative), the corresponding Doric forms naturally being πᾳ and πᾷ. These are all well attested, and as LSJ notes, they’re often written without the iota. It is this last form, πᾷ or πᾶ, that we are to recognize in the Archimedes quote.

But this is a distraction.
For some it is not a distraction. Modern technology breaks down. This isn't the first or the last time that Diogenes will link to the wrong entry in LSJ. It happens frequently. Might help those without access to LSJ if we look at the next two entries:
πῃ, Ion. (but not in Hom.) κῃ, Dor. πᾳ : enclit. Particle :

of Manner, in some way, somehow, with a neg. in any way, at all, οὐδέ πῃ ἔστι Il.6.267, cf. Od.12.433, 13.207 ; οὐδέ τί πῃ δύναμαι Il.21.219 ; οὔτι πῃ Hes.Op.105 ; οὕτω πῃ in some such way, Il.24.373 ; ταῦτά κῃ Hdt.5.40 ; τῇδέ πῃ Pl.Phd.73b, etc. ; ταύτῃ πῃ Id.R.433e, etc.; ἢ ἔχεις πῃ ἄλλῃ κάλλιον λέγειν; Id.Cra.427e ; ἄλλῃ γέ πῃ λέγειν ἢ ᾗ . . Id.Smp.189c ; εἴ πῃ if any way, Id.Prt.355a ; μή πῃ . . that in no way, Id.Sph.242c, etc. ; ἦ πᾳ . . ; can it possibly . . ? Theoc.4.3 ; so ἆρά γέ πα . . ; Id.7.149,151 ; μάλιστά κῃ somewhere about, approximately, Hdt.2.75, 4.86, etc. : to limit a Sup., ἀπορώτατά πῃ Pl.Ti.51b, etc.; opp. ἁπλῶς, Arist.APr.49a8.
of Space, by some way, to some place, Il.6.378,383 ; οὔτε πῃ ἄλλῃ Od.2.127, cf. 3.251 : c. gen., ἦ πῄ με . . πολίων . . ἄξεις; wilt thou carry me to some city ? Il.3.400.
somewhere, anywhere, οὐδέ πῃ ἀσπὶς ἔην Od.22.25 (ap. Eust.) ; εἴ πῃ πιέζοιντο Th.1.49 ; πεσόντος πῃ τοῦ τείχους X.HG5.2.5, etc. ; οὐδέ πῃ ἄλλῃ Od.22.140 ; ἀέρι πᾳ Theoc.17.120.
πῇ μέν . . , πῇ δέ . . on one side . . , on the other . . , Plu.Caes.25 ; partly . . , partly . . , v.l. in X. An.3.1.12 ; πῇ μέν . . , ἔστι δ' ὅτε Plu.Alc.6.

πῇ, Ion. (but not in Hom.) κῇ, Dor. πᾷ : interrog. Particle :

of Manner, in what way? how? Od.12.287, Pl.Phd.76b, Prt.353c, etc.; πῇ δή; how, pray? Pl.R.376b, etc.; πῇ δὴ οὖν ποτε; how in the world? Id.Lg.694c ; πῇ μάλιστα; how exactly? Id.R.537e ; πῶς οὖν καὶ πῇ; Id.Lg.686b : in indirect questions, ἐκαραδόκεον τὸν πόλεμον κῇ ἀποβήσεται Hdt.8.67, cf. D.29.1 ; εἰδέναι πῇ διαφέρει X. Hier.1.2, cf. Cyr.1.6.14, etc. ; πῇ καὶ τί πρακτέον ἑκάστοις Plb.11.2.6.
to what end? wherefore? Od.2.364, etc. ; πῇ δή; 17.219, Il. 10.385, etc.
of Space, which way? whither? πῇ ἔβη Ἀνδρομάχη; 6.377, etc. ; πῇ ἔβαν εὐχωλαί; 8.229 ; πᾷ τις τράποιτ' ἄν ; A.Ch. 409(lyr.); πῇ δή; Il.5.472, 24.201 ; πῇ γάρ; Od.15.509 ; δεῦρο ἕπου. Answ. πῇ; Pl.Plt.258e.
less freq. like ποῦ ; where? Il.13.307 ; πᾷ πᾷ κεῖται; S.Aj.912 (lyr.), cf. E.Hec.1056(lyr.) : in indirect questions, X.HG2.4.31 : c. gen., ἐπειρώτα . . , κῇ γῆς οἰκημένοι . . cj. in Hdt.5.73. (Freq. written πη, πῆ in codd.)
C. Stirling Bartholomew

C. S. Bartholomew
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1248
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:03 pm

Re: Archimedes' quote

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Sat Nov 07, 2015 6:21 pm

mwh wrote:The quote in Diodorus, given as “πᾷ βῶ καὶ χαριστίωνι τὰν γᾶν κινήσω πᾶσαν;” will mean “Where am I to go and move the whole earth with a charistion?” (πᾷ as first word has to mean “Where?” interrogative.) ...
A plausible reading given that πᾷ is clause initial, which makes me wonder why the LCL translator doesn't make it a question. I don't hold LCL translations as infallible but everyone who quotes this in English appears to be using F. R. Walton's rendering.
Again, he used to say, in the Doric speech of Syracuse: “Give me a place to stand and with a lever I will move the whole world.”

the text on the facing page of F. R. Walton's LCL reads Πᾷ βῶ καὶ χαριστίωνι τὰν γᾶν κινήσω πᾶσαν;

F. R. Walton, in Loeb Classical Library (1957) Vol. XI.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

User avatar
opoudjis
Textkit Member
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:54 am

Re: Archimedes' quote

Post by opoudjis » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:10 pm

A bit this thread has missed: πᾷ βῶ καὶ χαριστίωνι τὰν γᾶν κινήσω πᾶσαν is in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_verse: its wording is Byzantine, and it comes from John Tzetzes' quoting of Diodorus' account of Archimedes' death ray (Chiliads 2.35.128-233):
Ἀνακλωμένων δε λοιπὸν εἰς τοῦτο τῶν ἀκτίνων
ἔξαψις ἤρθη φοβερὰ πυρώδης ταῖς ὁλκάσι,
καὶ ταύτας ἀπετέφρωσεν ἐκ μήκους τοξοβόλου.
Οὕτω νικᾷ τὸν Μάρκελλον ταῖς μηχαναῖς ὁ γέρων.
Ἔλεγε δὲ καὶ δωριστὶ φωνῇ Συρακουσίῳ·
Πᾶ βῶ καὶ χαριστίωνι τὰν γᾶν κινήσω πᾶσαν.
And so, reflecting back the rays through this,
a fearsome conflagration struck the boats,
and left them ash, a bow-shot's length away.
So the old man with engines beat Marcellus.
He'd also say in Syracusan Doric:
Where can I move the whole earth with a lever?
Last edited by opoudjis on Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
Posts: 2640
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Archimedes' quote

Post by jeidsath » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:41 pm

It makes me wonder what his starting point for the 15-syllable verse was, and whether that motivates the question-form. (Assuming that Tzetzes took it as a question?)

If he had started with something like this:

δός μοι πᾶ στῶ, καὶ τὰν γᾶν κινάσω

You would think that just the addition of χαριστίωνι would have gotten him a metrical line:

δός μοι πᾶ στῶ, καὶ χαριστίωνι τὰν γᾶν κινάσω
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2887
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Archimedes' quote

Post by mwh » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:19 pm

Deleted. I goofed.
Last edited by mwh on Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
Posts: 2640
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Archimedes' quote

Post by jeidsath » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:33 pm

In the Loeb for Diodorus Siculus 26.18, this whole section is simply quoted from Tzetzes. I would guess that the original for it does not survive. Two interesting footnotes from LCL 363 on Archimedes:
Further evidence is given by Tzetzes, Chil. xii. 995 and Eutocius (Archim. ed. Heiberg iii. 132. 5–6) that Archimedes wrote in the Doric dialect, but the extant text of his best-known works, On the Sphere and Cylinder and the Measurement of a Circle, retains only one genuine trace of its original Doric—the form τῆνον. Partial losses have occurred in other books, the Sand-Reckoner having suffered least. The subject is fully treated by Heiberg, Quaestiones Archimedeae, pp. 69–94, and in a preface to the second volume of his edition of Archimedes he indicates the words which he has restored to their Doric form despite the manuscripts; his text is adopted in this selection.

The loss of the original Doric is not the only defect in the text. The hand of an interpolator—often not particularly skilful—can be repeatedly detected, and there are many loose expressions which Archimedes would not have used, and occasional omissions of an essential step in his argument. Sometimes the original text can be inferred from the commentaries written by Eutocius, but these extend only to the books On the Sphere and Cylinder, the Measurement of a Circle, and On Plane Equilibriums. A partial loss of Doric forms had already occurred by the time of Eutocius, and it is believed that the works most widely read were completely recast a little later in the school of Isidorus of Miletus to make them more easily intelligible to pupils.
The instrument is otherwise mentioned by Simplicius (in Aristot. Phys, ed. Diels 1110. 2–5) and it is implied that it was used for weighing: ταύτῃ δὲ τῇ ἀναλογίᾳ τοῦ κινοῦντος καὶ τοῦ κινουμένου καὶ τοῦ διαστήματος τὸ σταθμιστικὸν ὄργανον τὸν καλούμενον χαριστίωνα συστήσας ὁ ᾿Αρχιμήδης ὡς μέχρι παντὸς τῆς ἀναλογίας προχωρούσης ἐκόμπασεν ἐκεῖνο τὸ “πᾶ βῶ καὶ κινῶ τὰν γᾶν.” As Tzetzes in another place (Chil. iii. 61: ὁ γῆν ἀνασπῶν μηχανῇ τῇ τρισπάστῳ βοῶν· “ὅπα βῶ καὶ σαλεύσω τὴν χθόνα”) writes of a triple-pulley device in the same connexion, it may be presumed to have been of this nature.
EDIT:
mwh wrote:And your line is not a versus politicus
Thanks. Looking it up on wikipedia, I see that versus politicus is a distich, with a caesura after the eighth syllable.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2887
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Archimedes' quote

Post by mwh » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:02 pm

Well well. So what we were taking as Diodorus’ version of the quotation is not Diodorus at all, but only Tzetzes more than a millennium later. That restores primacy to Pappus’ version, which is welcome, because it rids us of the problematic charistio and στῶ is clearly better than βῶ, and we can ignore Tzetzes’ “Syracusan Doric” too.

(Joel, For the meter see http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-foru ... 6&p=176574, along with the youtube recording I posted there for you.)

User avatar
opoudjis
Textkit Member
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:54 am

Re: Archimedes' quote

Post by opoudjis » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:29 am

jeidsath wrote:If he had started with something like this:

δός μοι πᾶ στῶ, καὶ τὰν γᾶν κινάσω

You would think that just the addition of χαριστίωνι would have gotten him a metrical line:

δός μοι πᾶ στῶ, καὶ χαριστίωνι τὰν γᾶν κινάσω
But not a political verse metrical line—which was already fast becoming the only metre of vernacular Greek, and of didactic learnèd Greek as well.

I dunno, χαριστίων looks like a lectio difficilior to me...

User avatar
opoudjis
Textkit Member
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:54 am

Re: Archimedes' quote

Post by opoudjis » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:49 am

mwh: Simplicius as cited by Joel is independent confirmation of πᾶ βῶ and χαριστίων, and may well be where Tzetzes got his wording from. Repeating the quote:
(in Aristot. Phys, ed. Diels 1110. 2–5): ταύτῃ δὲ τῇ ἀναλογίᾳ τοῦ κινοῦντος καὶ τοῦ κινουμένου καὶ τοῦ διαστήματος τὸ σταθμιστικὸν ὄργανον τὸν καλούμενον χαριστίωνα συστήσας ὁ ᾿Αρχιμήδης ὡς μέχρι παντὸς τῆς ἀναλογίας προχωρούσης ἐκόμπασεν ἐκεῖνο τὸ “πᾶ βῶ καὶ κινῶ τὰν γᾶν.”
Referring to that correspondence between mover, moved, and the space in between, Archimedes introduced the measuring instrument known as charistiōn, and taking the analogy to the extreme he made his well-known boast, "where can I go so I can move the earth."

User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
Posts: 2640
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Archimedes' quote

Post by jeidsath » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:59 pm

Yet another source, now that I search.

OLYMPIODORUS, In Platonis Alcibiadem commentarii
Τί οὖν τὸν αἰσθανόμενον χρὴ ποιεῖν; ἐρωτᾷ αὐτὸν τί δεῖ ποιεῖν πρὸς τὸ μαθεῖν· ὁ δέ φησιν οὐδὲν χαλεπὸν οὔτε τὰ τοῦ Ὤτου καὶ Ἐφιάλτου ποιῆσαι (‘Ὄσσαν ἐπ’ Οὐλύμπῳ μέμασαν θέμεν’), ἀλλὰ δοῦναι λόγον καὶ λαβεῖν. καὶ Ἀρχιμήδης μὲν μετὰ τὴν εὕρεσιν τοῦ βαρυούλκου, ἐν ᾧ ἔδειξεν ὅτι τῇ τυχούσῃ δυνάμει τὸ τυχὸν βάρος κινήσει, ἐπειδὴ ὅσον ἐπὶ τούτῳ καὶ εἷς ἄνθρωπος ἠδύνατο κινῆσαι τὴν γῆν, μέγα ἐφθέγξατο καὶ ἀδύνατον, ὅτι ‘πᾷ βῶ καὶ κινῶ τὰν γᾶν’· ἀδύνατον γὰρ μὴ εἶναι ἐν τόπῳ· Σωκράτης δὲ εὐτελῆ αἰτεῖ.
So here it's a βαρυουλκός/βαρουλκός, which LSJ gives as a "lifting-screw." The question-version of the story seems to make more sense here than anywhere else. So to me this seems more interesting than the Simplicius version.

Beyond that, a contemporary of Tzetzes also seems to have known the story with a χαριστίων. Michael Italikos, probably the same source (Simplicius ?) as Tzetzes.
Ἀρχιμήδης δὲ λῆρος διὰ τὸν χαριστίωνα, τὸ πολύσπαστον ὄργανον, ὑπερόγκους λόγους φθεγγόμενος· πᾷ βῶ καὶ κινῶ τὰν γᾶν.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2887
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Archimedes' quote

Post by mwh » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:41 pm

opoudjis, You’re right. I’d missed the Simplicius—and Olympiodorus which Joel now adds. I was merely going by the info the OP gave. I should have remembered that the alleged Diodorus was not in fact Diodorus in the later books, and then I should have recognized the πολιτικὸς στίχος (a verse-form unknown to Diodorus of course).

The variation in the attendant circumstances and in the wording of the alleged quote is typical of oral tradition. It’s possible to do some Quellenforschung with the testimonia but futile to seek the original wording when the whole story is likely to be apocryphal. An alternative truth.

Post Reply