Mastronarde ch. 22

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swtwentyman
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Mastronarde ch. 22

Post by swtwentyman »

An English-to-Greek exercise:

The general did all these good deeds to the city, but he was put to death by you because of the wicked orators who made false accusations against him.

I had:

ὀ στρατηγὸς πᾶντα ταῦτα τὰ ἁγαθὰ ἔργα πόλει ἐποίησεν, ἀλλὰ ἀπεκτείνατο ὑπό σου διὰ τοὺς πονεροὺς ῥήτορας οἵ ψευδῶς αύτοῦ κατηγόρησαν.

Not very elegant, but it seems that it would do. The answer key gives the accusative "πόλιν" for "πόλει" and "ταῦτα" for "ταῦτα ἔργα", fine, but renders the relative clause thus:

οἳ ψευδῆ αὺτοῦ κατηγόρησαν ὑφ' ὑμῶν ἀπέθανεν.

Why the active "ἀπέθανεν" -- "died" -- instead of "ἀπεκτείνατο" -- "was killed/put to death"? And why "ψευδῆ"? I can't even parse that one -- it seems that the form would be accusative singular but I can't figure it out.

ed: oh -- is "ψευδῆ" a neuter substantive "false things" and "he accused him of false things"? That would make sense, but that still leaves the verb of death. This would be an internal accusative, I believe.
ed2: cleaned up a few typos -- used masculine plural accusatives instead of neuters
Last edited by swtwentyman on Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:15 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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bedwere
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Re: Mastronarde ch. 22

Post by bedwere »

You have a typo. It should be ψευδῆ (adj pl neut acc attic epic doric contr)

As for ἀποθνήσκω, the Greeks used it in lieu of the passive of ἀποκτείνω.

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Re: Mastronarde ch. 22

Post by swtwentyman »

That was a really stupid mistake (I was going off of what it sounded like in my head). Thanks for pointing it out, and thanks for your help.

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Re: Mastronarde ch. 22

Post by Qimmik »

ἀπεκτείνατο would be middle, not passive, but Bedwere is right: απεθανεν would be used. There is no aorist passive of -κτεινω. Probably "you" plural is more likely--the speaker is addressing an assembly, υφ' υμων.

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Re: Mastronarde ch. 22

Post by jeidsath »

And see LSJ for ποιέω Β.2 for the accusative πόλιν:
c. dupl. acc., do something to another, κακά or ἀγαθὰ ποιεῖν τινα
What exactly does the "c. dupl. acc." stand for? I assume something along the lines of double accusative construction, but it mystifies me.
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Re: Mastronarde ch. 22

Post by swtwentyman »

Thanks.

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Re: Mastronarde ch. 22

Post by Qimmik »

cum duplice accusative -- with double accusative. Notes on things like complements are in Latin in LSJ.

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Re: Mastronarde ch. 22

Post by swtwentyman »

As long as I've got a thread going: I have this

http://www.amazon.com/An-Intermediate-G ... W1WHDGQWW3

on an Amazon wish list for my upcoming birthday (I figure the back-of-the-book vocab will do until I start reading texts). Is this a good version of the lexicon and if not (or even if yes but there are better alternatives) what would you all suggest?

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Re: Mastronarde ch. 22

Post by Qimmik »

This is essential--it's what distinguished scholars use when they're too lazy to go to the big LSJ. (This is based on an earlier version of LSJ, but it's still very useful because it gives a large number of meanings, many idioms, citations to specific authors, and in many cases glosses on specific passages (though they aren't identified as such). My copy is falling apart after about 55 years of front-line service, but I have a brand new copy in reserve for the next 55 years.

I seem to recall someone complaining about an illegible typeface in some of the newer copies. You might want to look for a used copy of an earlier printing in good condition--there are a number available at reasonable prices on AbeBooks:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchR ... sh+lexicon

Make sure the pages are clean and unmarked, and that the book is listed as in reasonably good condition. Eventually it will fall apart, though. Also make sure the publisher is listed as Oxford and avoid paper reprints, which tend to be defective.

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swtwentyman
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Re: Mastronarde ch. 22

Post by swtwentyman »

Thanks a *ton* for the link. I knew that the LSJ was the one to get but there are several listings on Amazon that don't specify whether they're small, medium, or large (it turns out that one listing was of the little/abridged one but for only about $5 less than the medium/intermediate) and the listing in my wish list has some bad reviews because both old printings and a poor-quality recent reprint are all thrown together. I'll go with Abe Books instead. Thanks again.

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Re: Mastronarde ch. 22

Post by Qimmik »

For quick answers I find this very useful. It also has an English-Ancient Greek section, and it's cheap:

http://www.amazon.com/Pocket-Oxford-Cla ... dictionary

He also has a very succinct Greek grammar that gives you just what you need, clearly explained, without superfluous detail (but it's not a replacement for Smyth--it's a supplement):

http://www.amazon.com/Pocket-Oxford-Cla ... dictionary

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Re: Mastronarde ch. 22

Post by swtwentyman »

You gave the link for the dictionary again instead of the grammar but it was easily-enough found. Thanks for the recommendations.

As it is, I remembered that the aorist passive is a different tense altogether, therefore "apekteinato" (I'm not at home right now, can't type in Greek on my phone) for "was killed" isn't possible anyway. Perhaps that's what you were getting at when you pointed out that it would be middle and not passive.

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Re: Mastronarde ch. 22

Post by Qimmik »

the aorist passive is a different tense altogether, therefore "apekteinato" . . . for "was killed" isn't possible anyway. Perhaps that's what you were getting at when you pointed out that it would be middle and not passive.
Yes, the aorist passive is different from the aorist middle, and απεκτεινατο could only be a middle, though I doubt this verb would be much, if at all, used in the middle. In general, αποκτεινω doesn't have an aorist passive form in Attic Greek, since απεθανον supplies the passive.

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