First Greek Writer Study Group

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jeidsath
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First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by jeidsath » Tue May 26, 2015 5:05 pm

First Greek Writer
First Greek Writer Key

I will post my answers to the exercises here, and offer any comments that I am able to anyone who wishes to do the same.

I won't try to post a schedule. Anyone is welcome to drop in and out, do exercises out of sync, or join at any time.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by jeidsath » Tue May 26, 2015 5:07 pm

Exercise I

μεσημβρία νῦν ἐστι καὶ ὁ ἥλιος σφόδρα θερμός. ἡ σκιὰ τῶν δένδων ψυχρός ἐστι καὶ ἡ λίμνη καλή. ὁρῶ πολλοὺς κύκνους οἳ λαμπροί ἐστι καὶ λευκοί. ὁ τράχηλος ἐκείνου τοῦ κύκνου μακρός ἐστιν ἀλλὰ δοκεῖ τὸ ἀριστερὸν πτερόν μικρόν. τὴν αἰτίαν τούτου οὐκ οἶδα. ἴσως κακὸς νοσὸς ἐν τούτῳ τῷ πτερῷ ἔστιν. ἴσως ὀστέον τούτου τοῦ κύκνου διερράγη λίθῳ. ἐπὶ τῆς λίμνης ἔστι μικρὸν πλοῖον.
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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by jeidsath » Tue May 26, 2015 5:28 pm

Exercise II

ἔστι τρεῖς ναῦται ἐν ἐκείνῳ τῷ πλοίῳ. ἱμάτια ἐρυθρά ἐστι τοῖς ναύταις. ὁ νέος ναύτης ἔχει ἱστίον ἐπὶ τοῦ ὤμου. ἄλλος καθεύδει ὁ δὲ τρίτος παρὰ τῷ πηδαλίῳ. οὗτος οὐκ ὁρᾷ τὸν δεινὸν κίνδυνον, ἡ γὰρ πέτρα ἔστιν ἐν τῇ λίμνῃ. αὕτη ἡ πέτρα στερρά ἐστιν, καὶ τὴν τοῦ θανάτου αἰτίαν ἔσται τοὺς πολλούς. αὐτοὶ νῦν ἐγγὺς τοῦ τόπου καὶ ὑπὸ φόβου ὠχρός εἰμι. ἀποτρέπω τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς. ἰδοὺ ἔξω τοῦ κινδύνου εἰσὶ καὶ ὐπὸ χαρᾶς ἐν τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν δάκρυα ἔστιν.
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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by Markos » Tue May 26, 2015 7:17 pm

jeidsath wrote: ἡ σκιὰ τῶν δένδων ψυχρός ἐστι...
ψυχρά
jeidsath wrote:ἴσως κακὸς νοσὸς ἐν τούτῳ τῷ πτερῷ ἔστιν.
κακὴ
jeidsath wrote:αὕτη ἡ πέτρα στερρά ἐστιν, καὶ τὴν τοῦ θανάτου αἰτίαν ἔσται τοὺς πολλούς.
καὶ ἡ τοῦ θανάτου αἰτία ἔσται τοῖς πολλοῖς.

I don't like the word order here. The sentence lacks for me euphony. Read it out loud. This sounds better to me:

τοῖς δὲ πολλοῖς αἰτία ἔσται θανάτου.

But that's very subjective.

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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by bedwere » Tue May 26, 2015 9:13 pm

jeidsath wrote:Exercise I

μεσημβρία νῦν ἐστι καὶ ὁ ἥλιος σφόδρα θερμός. ἡ σκιὰ τῶν δένδων ψυχρός ἐστι καὶ ἡ λίμνη καλή. ὁρῶ πολλοὺς κύκνους οἳ λαμπροί ἐστι καὶ λευκοί. ὁ τράχηλος ἐκείνου τοῦ κύκνου μακρός ἐστιν ἀλλὰ δοκεῖ τὸ ἀριστερὸν πτερόν μικρόν. τὴν αἰτίαν τούτου οὐκ οἶδα. ἴσως κακὸς νοσὸς ἐν τούτῳ τῷ πτερῷ ἔστιν. ἴσως ὀστέον τούτου τοῦ κύκνου διερράγη λίθῳ. ἐπὶ τῆς λίμνης ἔστι μικρὸν πλοῖον.
ἐστι --> εἰσι
ἔστιν --> ἐστιν
ἔστι --> ἐστὶ

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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by bedwere » Tue May 26, 2015 9:17 pm

jeidsath wrote:Exercise II

ἔστι τρεῖς ναῦται ἐν ἐκείνῳ τῷ πλοίῳ. ἱμάτια ἐρυθρά ἐστι τοῖς ναύταις. ὁ νέος ναύτης ἔχει ἱστίον ἐπὶ τοῦ ὤμου. ἄλλος καθεύδει ὁ δὲ τρίτος παρὰ τῷ πηδαλίῳ. οὗτος οὐκ ὁρᾷ τὸν δεινὸν κίνδυνον, ἡ γὰρ πέτρα ἔστιν ἐν τῇ λίμνῃ. αὕτη ἡ πέτρα στερρά ἐστιν, καὶ τὴν τοῦ θανάτου αἰτίαν ἔσται τοὺς πολλούς. αὐτοὶ νῦν ἐγγὺς τοῦ τόπου καὶ ὑπὸ φόβου ὠχρός εἰμι. ἀποτρέπω τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς. ἰδοὺ ἔξω τοῦ κινδύνου εἰσὶ καὶ ὐπὸ χαρᾶς ἐν τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν δάκρυα ἔστιν.
ἔστι --> εἰσὶ
ἔστιν --> ἐστὶν
δάκρυα ἔστιν --> δάκρυά ἐστιν

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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by jeidsath » Tue May 26, 2015 11:50 pm

And Markos corrected αἰτίαν to αἰτία for me, even if he didn't highlight it. I'll fix up both paragraphs and record mp3s of me reading them on archive.org.

I think that I understand all of your corrections, and don't need to ask for further explanation. (I expect to need to ask as these get harder). The biggest pattern of errors that I see is singular/plural with ἐστί. I'll double-check that in the future.

@bedwere -- I'm trying to follow #938, and #939 from Chandler's Greek Accentuation. He says that ἔστι is paroxytone whenever it affirms existence or possibility. In the examples cited where I have ἔστι or ἔστιν I was trying to follow this rule. Is there something that I'm missing?
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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by bedwere » Wed May 27, 2015 3:16 am

jeidsath wrote:
@bedwere -- I'm trying to follow #938, and #939 from Chandler's Greek Accentuation. He says that ἔστι is paroxytone whenever it affirms existence or possibility. In the examples cited where I have ἔστι or ἔστιν I was trying to follow this rule. Is there something that I'm missing?
Well, I don't think that it expresses existence or possibility in the examples. Could you replace "is" with "exists" or "is possible" in the English?

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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by jeidsath » Wed May 27, 2015 6:35 am

My reasoning (and I could be wrong) was as follows:

ἔστι τρεῖς ναῦται ἐν ἐκείνῳ τῷ πλοίῳ
Three sailors exist in the boat.

ἡ γὰρ πέτρα ἔστιν ἐν τῇ λίμνῃ
A rock exists in the lake

ὐπὸ χαρᾶς ἐν τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν δάκρυα ἔστιν
From joy, tears exist in my eyes.

But I could be misunderstanding the rule.
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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by bedwere » Wed May 27, 2015 3:03 pm

If you look at the examples in Smyth, you'll find:

b. ἐστί is written ἔστι at the beginning of a sentence; when it expresses existence or possibility; when it follows οὐκ, μή, εἰ, ὡς, καί, ἀλλά (or ἀλλ᾽), τοῦτο (or τοῦτ᾽); and in ἔστιν οἵ some, ἔστιν ὅτε sometimes. Thus, εἰ ἔστιν οὕτως if it is so, τοῦτο ὃ ἔστι that which exists.

The key to Sidgwick agrees with my understanding. But I leave further analysis to those who are more competent than me.

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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by jeidsath » Wed May 27, 2015 5:09 pm

Looking over Chandler and the LSJ, it seems that another way to state the rule is to use ἔστι in "cases where it could not be omitted."

The LSJ states that "later Gramm. wrote ἔστι as Subst. Verb." The examples of the Substantive Verb use are Α. Ι-VI in the article for εἰμί. This seems to be the majority of the non-Copula usage.

Qimmik has a good discussion of the rule in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61298#p162543

He points out that West rejects the rule, following Wackernagel and Barrett.

I notice that the SBLGNT follows the rule in Acts 2:29 and elsewhere.
I leave further analysis to those who are more competent than me.
Echoed! Even if it sets a higher bar when you say it than when I do.
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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by jeidsath » Wed May 27, 2015 7:32 pm

Exercise III

οὗτος ὁ ἵππος ὁ ἐμός ἐστιν. πρότερον μὲν ἰσχυρός ῆν νῦν δὲ σφόδρα λεπτὸς καὶ φαῦλός ἐστιν. καὶ τὴν αἰτίαν λέξω. οἱ γεωργοὶ οἵς ἐπέτρεπον αὐτὸν σφόδρα ἄπιστοι ῆσαν. τὸν τοῦ ἵπποῦ σῖτον ἔκλεπτον. ἀλλ’ ἡ μηχανὴ καλή ἐστιν ἥν ἔχω λίθους γὰρ ἔθηκα ἐς τὴν φάτνην. ἐσθίων ὁ ἵππος τὸν σῖτον ἀποπτύει τοὺς λίθους. οἱ δὲ γεωγοὶ κλέπτουσι τὸν σῖτον σὺν τοῖς λίθοις. τούτῳ τρόπῳ ῥᾴδιός ἐστὶ τὴν ἀπάτην ἐξευρεῖν. οὐκέτι οἱ γεωγοὶ κακοί ἔσονται. φοβερὰ γὰρ ἡ ζημία ἐκείνοις καὶ χαλεπή.
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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by Markos » Wed May 27, 2015 10:18 pm

jeidsath wrote:Exercise III...τούτῳ τρόπῳ ῥᾴδιός ἐστὶ τὴν ἀπάτην ἐξευρεῖν.
I would expect the neuter and you need an article for the demonstrative: τούτῳ τῷ τρόπῳ ῥᾴδιόν ἐστὶ τὴν ἀπάτην ἐξευρεῖν.

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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by mwh » Thu May 28, 2015 1:27 am

ὁ ἵππος ὁ ἐμός means “my horse,” emphatic “my.” “My horse” is just ο ιππος μου.

λέξω. ἐρῶ more usual.

οἵς οἷς

τὸν τοῦ ἵπποῦ σῖτον ἔκλεπτον better with γὰρ after τὸν. Greek uses connectives except where asyndeton is called for—as it is in the previous sentence—and in the 2nd.

ἀλλ’ ἡ μηχανὴ καλή ἐστιν ἥν ἔχω reads very oddly: “But the plan is fine, the one that I have.” You mean something like “But I have a fine plan”? αλλα μηχανην εχω καλήν τινα (note idiomatic τινα). Or if “My plan (the plan I have) is a fine one,” η δε μηχανη ἣν εχω καλή ’στιν. (There are syntactically challenging ways of doing this too.)

λίθους γὰρ ἔθηκα ἐς τὴν φάτνην Good word order.

ἐσθίων ὁ ἵππος τὸν σῖτον Better to keep εσθιων τον σιτον (or τον σιτον εσθιων) together. Connective needed, another γαρ best.

ἀποπτύει, κλέπτουσι, εστι. Futures would read more naturally, but I guess you’re translating presents.

Connective for next sentence. ωστε best.
ουκετι better before κακοι.

εκεινοις better αυτοις, since no others are in question. Word order good.

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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by jeidsath » Thu May 28, 2015 2:01 pm

Corrected exercises.

I've changed everything except for accentuation related to Chandler 938. I will keep my eye open for that in my reading and come back to it later.

I've uploaded my audio here: https://archive.org/details/FirstGreekWriter

Exercise I

μεσημβρία νῦν ἐστι καὶ ὁ ἥλιος σφόδρα θερμός. ἡ σκιὰ τῶν δένδων ψυχρά ἐστι καὶ ἡ λίμνη καλή. ὁρῶ πολλοὺς κύκνους οἳ λαμπροί εἰσι καὶ λευκοί. ὁ τράχηλος ἐκείνου τοῦ κύκνου μακρός ἐστιν ἀλλὰ δοκεῖ τὸ ἀριστερὸν πτερόν μικρόν. τὴν αἰτίαν τούτου οὐκ οἶδα. ἴσως κακὴ νοσὸς ἐν τούτῳ τῷ πτερῷ ἔστιν. ἴσως ὀστέον τούτου τοῦ κύκνου διερράγη λίθῳ. ἐπὶ τῆς λίμνης ἔστι μικρὸν πλοῖον.

Exercise II

εἴσι τρεῖς ναῦται ἐν ἐκείνῳ τῷ πλοίῳ. ἱμάτια ἐρυθρά ἐστι τοῖς ναύταις. ὁ νέος ναύτης ἔχει ἱστίον ἐπὶ τοῦ ὤμου. ἄλλος καθεύδει ὁ δὲ τρίτος παρὰ τῷ πηδαλίῳ. οὗτος οὐκ ὁρᾷ τὸν δεινὸν κίνδυνον, ἡ γὰρ πέτρα ἔστιν ἐν τῇ λίμνῃ. αὕτη ἡ πέτρα στερρά ἐστιν, τοῖς δὲ πολλοῖς αἰτία ἔσται θανάτου . αὐτοὶ νῦν ἐγγὺς τοῦ τόπου καὶ ὑπὸ φόβου ὠχρός εἰμι. ἀποτρέπω τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς. ἰδοὺ ἔξω τοῦ κινδύνου εἰσὶ καὶ ὐπὸ χαρᾶς ἐν τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν δάκρυα ἔστιν.

Exercise III

οὗτος ὁ ἵππος μού ἐστιν. πρότερον μὲν ἰσχυρός ῆν νῦν δὲ σφόδρα λεπτὸς καὶ φαῦλός ἐστιν. καὶ τὴν αἰτίαν ἐρῶ. οἱ γεωργοὶ οἷς ἐπέτρεπον αὐτὸν σφόδρα ἄπιστοι ῆσαν. τὸν γὰρ τοῦ ἵππου σῖτον ἔκλεπτον. ἀλλὰ μηχανὴ ἔχω καλήν τινα λίθους γὰρ ἔθηκα ἐς τὴν φάτνην. τὸν γὰρ σῖτον ἐσθίων ὁ ἵππος ἀποπτύσει τοὺς λίθους. οἱ δὲ γεωγοὶ κλέψουσι τὸν σῖτον σὺν τοῖς λίθοις. τούτῳ τῷ τρόπῳ ῥᾴδιον ἔσται τὴν ἀπάτην ἐξευρεῖν. ὥστε οἱ γεωγοὶ οὐκέτι κακοὶ ἔσονται. φοβερὰ γὰρ ἡ ζημία αὐτοῖς καὶ χαλεπή.
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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by jeidsath » Thu May 28, 2015 7:30 pm

Exercise IV

ἤδη ὁ στρατὸς ἐν τῷ στρατοπέδῳ ἐστὶ καὶ τὸ ναυτικόν παρὰ τῷ αἰγιαλῷ τῆς νήσου. οἱ πολέμιοι ἐπὶ τοῦ λόφου ἐστὶ ὅ ἐναντίος ἡμετέρου τοῦ στρατοπεδοῦ. αὐρίου ἴσως μάχη ἔσται οἱ γὰρ δοκοῦσι ἕτοιμοι. αὕτη δὲ ἡ μηχανή ἐστι τοῦ ἡμετέρου στρατηγοῦ. νῦν γὰρ πάντα σκοτεινά ἐστι, καὶ τὰ πυρὰ τῶν πολεμίων ὀλίγα. οὐ τοίνυν χαλεπός ἔσται τοὺς ἡμετέρους στρατούς ἐλθεῖν αὐτοῖς καὶ τῶν πολλῶν ἀποτεμεῖν κεφαλάς. καὶ οὕτως αὐρίου ὀλίγοι ζωοὶ ἔσονται, καὶ ἡ νίκη ἡμετέρα ἔσται.

Exercise V

τάφρος ἔστι ἐν τούτῳ τῷ ἀγρῷ καὶ ὅ ἔχει πλεῖστον βόρβορον. τῶν δὲ πολλῶν ἵππων οἵ ἐνταῦθα εἴσιν ἕνα τινα ἐν δείνῳ κινδύνῳ δοκεῖ. αὐτὸς γὰρ ἐγγυς ἕστηκε ἐπὶ αὐτοῦ τοῦ τάφρου. οἴμοι νῦν ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ βορβόρου αὐτός ἐστιν. καὶ ἀπορία νῦν ἔστι τοῖς ἄλλοις οὐ δὲ οἷός τε ἐξέλκειν τὸν ἑταῖρον αὐτῶν. μόνος γὰρ ὁ δεπότης τούτον οἷός τε ποιεῖν οἴκοι δέ ἐστιν. ἐν τοῖς ἴπποις ἔστιν εἷς ὅ σοφώτερός ἐστι τῶν ἄλλων. [ὀνoμάζουσι αὐτὸν Λάσσι.] καὶ τρέχει πρὸς τὸν οἶκον τῇ δὲ κεφαλῇ παίει τῆν θύραν. καὶ οὖν τὸ κακὸν δῆλόν ἐστι τῷ δεσπότῃ καὶ ἐξέλκει τὸν ἵππον.
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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by mwh » Thu May 28, 2015 7:34 pm

Ex. II, Three Men in a Boat, as revised
The only things outright wrong here are ἀποτρέπω τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς (shd be τους οφθαλμους) and ἐν τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν (εν takes dative).

But if you want to smarten it up a bit and make it read more naturally you might consider:
ὁ νέος ναύτης φέρει ἱστiον τι
ὁ δὲ τρίτος ἐστὶ παρὰ τῷ πηδαλίῳ (looks odd without εστι)
οὗτος δ’ οὐx ὁρᾷ
τὸν δεινὸν κίνδυνον wd be nicer with δεινον predicative, τον κ. δ. With your word order it kind of implies there are other κίνδυνοι, and this is the δεινός one.
αὕτη ἡ πέτρα better linked with δε or και

“τοῖς δὲ πολλοῖς αἰτία ἔσται θανάτου.” The trouble with your first version as preliminarily corrected by Markos (ἡ τοῦ θανάτου αἰτία ἔσται τοῖς πολλοῖς) was not the word order or lack of euphony but the grammar and meaning. The article makes it the subject, not the predicate as (presumably) it needs to be. This is not a “subjective” call.
But I’m not sure that “for most people it will be the cause of death” is really what you want to say. If it is, it’s now fine.

“αὐτοὶ νῦν ἐγγὺς τοῦ τόπου καὶ ὑπὸ φόβου ὠχρός εἰμι.”
It’s not clear what αυτοι ““(they) themselves” is doing. Do you mean εκεῖνοι, They?
Since you change the subject it would be better to have εισί in this clause (matching ειμι in the next). And ἐγώ in the next, to give a "they … I …" contrast.

“ἐν τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν” see above. If it refers to the narrator, you should slip in a μοι (not μου).

I haven't looked at the original (nor the key!), so some of this may be off target.

III. μηχανὴ⟨ν⟩ typo. γεω⟨ρ⟩γοι.

I’ll bow out at this point (unless there are questions on this, in which case I'll try to address them), so that everyone can have a go.

EDIT. Sorry,crossposted with your latest with the next exercises. You move too fast for me!

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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by Σαυλος » Fri May 29, 2015 9:02 am

EXERCISE I
Here are two questions about Exercise I:

νῦν ἐστί, Sidgwick puts an accent on the ultima of ἐστι, I assume, because of the break in thought. Otherwise, I would have expected no accent. DA Carson rule EPR.4 “If the word preceding an enclitic has a circumflex accent on the ultima, then both monosyllabic and disyllabic enclitics normally lose their accent.”

I don't understand Sidgwick's “ἴσως τούτου τοῦ κύκνου ὀστοῦν λίθῳ διερράγη.”
διερράγη must by self-affected (medio-passive). So, wouldn't “bone” be in the Nominative? “The bone was broken...” I translated it: ἴσως διερράγη λίθῳ ὀστέον τοῦ τούτου τοῦ κύκνου. JEIDSATH translated similarily,
  • ἴσως ὀστέον τούτου τοῦ κύκνου διερράγη λίθῳ.

Exercise I – Σαῦλου composition before looking at key or other Learner's attempts:
  • μεσημβρία νὺν καὶ θερμή σφόδρα ἐστιν ἥλιος. ἡ δὲ σκιά τῶν δένδρων ψυχρά καὶ ἡ λίμνη καλή. ὁρῶ πολλούς κύκνοι οἵ λαμπροί καὶ λευκοί εἴσιν. μακρός ἐκείνου τοῦ κύκνου ὁ τράχηλος, ἀλλά δοκεῖ τὸ πτερόν μικρόν εἶναι. τήν αἰτίαν τούτου οὐκ οἴδα. ἴσως ἐν τούτῳ πτερῷ κακόν νόσον ἔχει. ἴσως διερράγη λίθῳ ὀστέον τοῦ τούτου τοῦ κύκνου. πλοῖον μικρόν ἐπὶ τῆς λίμνης ἐστιν.
Self-corrections: νῦν, οὶ, εἰσιν, ἐστίν.
I will babble until I talk. ετι λαλαγω...

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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by Σαυλος » Fri May 29, 2015 11:15 am

Exercise II

Question:
Jeisdath wrote, ἰδοὺ ἔξω τοῦ κινδύνου εἰσὶ καὶ. I don't understand the rules about a moveable Nun, but it feels like it should have one. I found "εισιν και" 61x in the NT.

Comments on Jeisdath's revised composition:
jeidsath wrote:εἴσι τρεῖς ναῦται ἐν ἐκείνῳ τῷ πλοίῳ. ἱμάτια ἐρυθρά ἐστι τοῖς ναύταις. ὁ νέος ναύτης ἔχει ἱστίον ἐπὶ τοῦ ὤμου. ἄλλος καθεύδει ὁ δὲ τρίτος παρὰ τῷ πηδαλίῳ. οὗτος οὐκ ὁρᾷ τὸν δεινὸν κίνδυνον, ἡ γὰρ πέτρα ἔστιν ἐν τῇ λίμνῃ. αὕτη ἡ πέτρα στερρά ἐστιν, τοῖς δὲ πολλοῖς αἰτία ἔσται θανάτου . αὐτοὶ νῦν ἐγγὺς τοῦ τόπου καὶ ὑπὸ φόβου ὠχρός εἰμι. ἀποτρέπω τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς. ἰδοὺ ἔξω τοῦ κινδύνου εἰσὶ καὶ ὐπὸ χαρᾶς ἐν τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν δάκρυα ἔστιν.
αὐτοὶ νῦν ἐγγὺς τοῦ τόπου καὶ ὑπὸ φόβου ὠχρός εἰμι.
Cf. MWH comment. Aὐτοί here would give the sense of “they themselves.” MWH suggests ἐκεῖνοι. Οὗτοι would also work. Either one carries less of a deictic sense in the Nominative because they are so often needed to serve in the place of the Nominative forms of αὐτός, which is reserved for this self/same sense.

Comments on Sidgwick's composition:
Sidgwick, "αὕτη δὲ χαλεπή ἐστὶ, καὶ πολλοῖς ἔσται αἰτία τοῦ θανάτου."
Sidgwick used the wrong word here for “hard.” χαλεπός is hard/difficult/harsh, not physically hard. He evidently intended to use στερρὸς since it is given in the vocabulary for this exercise.

Mark's translation of the last half of the sentence sounds better to me than Sidgwick's:
τοῖς δὲ πολλοῖς αἰτία ἔσται θανάτου.

Exercise II – Σαύλου composition before looking at key or other Learner's attempts.
  • τρεῖς ναῦται εἰσίν ἐν ἐκείνῳ τῷ πλοίῳ. ἐρυθρά ἐστίν τὰ ἱμάτια τούτοις τοῖς ναύταις. ἔχει ὁ νεός ναύτης τὸ ἱστίον ἐπὶ τοῦ ὦμου. ἄλλος καθεύδει ὁ δὲ τρίτος παρὰ τῷ πηδαλίῳ ἐστίν. οὐκ ὁρᾷ οὕτος δεινὸν κίνδυνον, πέτρα γὰρ ἐν τῇ λίμνῃ ἐγγύς ἐστίν. στερρὰ αὕτη ἡ πέτρα καὶ ἔσται ἡ αἰτία θανάτου πολλοῖς. νῦν δὲ παρὰ τῷ τόπῳ εἰσίν καὶ ὠχρός ὑπὸ φοβοῦ εἰμι. ἀποτρέπω τοὺς ὀφθαλμούς. ἰδού, οὗτοι εἰσίν ἕξω τοῦ κινδύνου καὶ ὑπὸ χαρᾶς δάκρυα ἐν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς ἐστιν.
I will babble until I talk. ετι λαλαγω...

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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by daivid » Fri May 29, 2015 12:20 pm

This is my stab at Exercise 1)
νῦν μεσημβρία ἐστὶ καὶ ὁ ἥλιος ἐστὶ σφοδρὰ θερμός.
ἡ σκιὰ ἡ τῶν δενδρῶν ἐστὶ ψυχρά καὶ ἡ λίμνη ἐστὶ καλή.
ὀρῶ πολλοὶ κύκνοι ὃς εισι λαμπροὶ καὶ λευκοὶ.
ὁ τράχηλος ὁ ἐκεινοῦ τοῦ κύκνου ἐστὶ μακρὸς ἀλλὰ τὸ ἀριστερὸν πτερόν δόκει εἶναι μικρόν.
οὐκ οἴδα τὴν αἰτίαν τούτου.
ἴσως ἐστὶ κακὴ νόσος ἐν τούτῳ τῷ πτερῷ;
ἴσως τούτου τοῦ κύκνου ὀστέον διερράγη λίθῳ.
πλοῖον ἐστὶ ἐπὶ τῇ λίμνῃ.


EDIT
Comparing my version with that of jeidsath I can see for myself that there are two corrections I need:
ὀρῶ πολλοὺς κύκνους οἳ ὃς εισι λαμπροὶ καὶ λευκοὶ.
μικρὸν πλοῖον ἐστὶ ἐπὶ τῇ λίμνῃ.
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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by daivid » Fri May 29, 2015 12:37 pm

Would it be possible to have separate threads for each exercise?
(By threads I mean a new topic for each exercise.)
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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by Σαυλος » Fri May 29, 2015 1:26 pm

Daivid - I thought the same. A separate thread for each exercise would be good. It's going to get really messy as we go on. Maybe discussion of Exercise I & II could remain here. Could we ask Jeisdath to start a new thread for Exercise III and each beyond that? ω Ιεισδαθ, καὶ συ θέλεις τοῦτο καὶ δύνασαι ποιεῖν;

Is there a difference in meaning between ἡ σκιά τῶν δενδῶν and the following two phrases?
daivid wrote:ἡ σκιὰ ἡ τῶν δενδρῶν
δοκεῖ μοι that τὸ δοκεῖ in the following should be at the head of the phrase... ἀλλά δοκεῖ...
daivid wrote:ἀλλὰ τὸ ἀριστερὸν πτερόν δόκει εἶναι μικρόν.

Daivid also took the 'bone breaking' sentence the way Jeisdath and I did.
daivid wrote:ἴσως τούτου τοῦ κύκνου ὀστέον διερράγη λίθῳ.
So, what's up with Sidgwick?
Σαῦλος wrote:I don't understand Sidgwick's “ἴσως τούτου τοῦ κύκνου ὀστοῦν λίθῳ διερράγη.”
διερράγη must by self-affected (medio-passive). So, wouldn't “bone” be in the Nominative? “The bone was broken...” I translated it: ἴσως διερράγη λίθῳ ὀστέον τοῦ τούτου τοῦ κύκνου. JEIDSATH translated similarily,
ἴσως ὀστέον τούτου τοῦ κύκνου διερράγη λίθῳ.
I will babble until I talk. ετι λαλαγω...

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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by jeidsath » Fri May 29, 2015 1:52 pm

I'll leave this thread for exercises I-II, and make a new thread for every three exercises after that (depending on how much forum noise that creates). So I will create a new thread for posts III-V.

I would suggest that each of us organize our posts with the following bolded headings to make things readable:

Exercise X -- Comment @YYY
Exercise X -- Submission
etc.
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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by mwh » Fri May 29, 2015 2:22 pm

I don't understand Sidgwick's “ἴσως τούτου τοῦ κύκνου ὀστοῦν λίθῳ διερράγη.”
διερράγη must by self-affected (medio-passive). So, wouldn't “bone” be in the Nominative? “The bone was broken...”
ὀστοῦν is nominative, contracted form of οστεον. (And διερράγη is simply passive.)
Jeisdath wrote, ἰδοὺ ἔξω τοῦ κινδύνου εἰσὶ καὶ. I don't understand the rules about a moveable Nun, but it feels like it should have one. I found "εισιν και" 61x in the NT.
Movable nu is properly used (1) to avoid hiatus and (2) at sentence end. But manuscripts are far from consistent, when they distinguish at all (ἐστί(ν) is often written as a compendium). Editors impose uniformity.
Sidgwick, "αὕτη δὲ χαλεπή ἐστὶ, καὶ πολλοῖς ἔσται αἰτία τοῦ θανάτου." […]
Mark's translation of the last half of the sentence sounds better to me than Sidgwick's:
τοῖς δὲ πολλοῖς αἰτία ἔσται θανάτου.
No, Mark’s is wrong. οἱ πολλοί, with article, means “most people” (“the many”). That’s why I queried τοις πολλοις in jeidsath’s version. “Many” is πολλοί without article. It’s an important distinction. Sidgwick is better for the rest of the sentence too, since it doesn’t split αιτια and θανατου, which cohere very closely, and θανατου has its regular article.

As a general principle, if we go thinking textkit members’ versions are better than Sidgwick’s, a rethink is probably in order. :) Of course, that doesn't mean we shouldn't ask questions about Sidgwick's versions.
Last edited by mwh on Fri May 29, 2015 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by jeidsath » Fri May 29, 2015 2:46 pm

Exercise I -- Comment @Σαῦλος

There are quite a number of acute accents which should be grave. I won't list them.

ὁρῶ πολλούς κύκνοι

Should be

ὁρῶ πολλοὺς κύκνους

οἵ λαμπροί καὶ λευκοί εἴσιν

Your original accent for οἵ is correct as written, and your self-correction is wrong. εἴσιν should be εἰσιν, not εἰσίν as you self-correct to. An enclitic following an oxytone loses its accent. Chandler 964.

EDIT: I'm wrong about οἵ! Now that I can see it with a larger font, you were correctly making it grave. (I thought that was the breathing mark).

κακόν νόσον

Markos corrected this in mine. νόσος is feminine, so κακὴν νόσον.

τοῦ τούτου τοῦ κύκνου

I don't think that the first τοῦ is needed?

Exercise I -- Comment @david

ὀρῶ πολλοὺς κύκνους οἳ ὃς εισι λαμπροὶ καὶ λευκοὶ

I think that you meant to delete the ὅς when you added οἵ for your correction.

ἐπὶ τῇ λίμνῃ

I think that you would call a city by the sea πόλις ἐπὶ τῇ θαλάττῃ. But a boat on a lake would be πλοῖν ἐπὶ τῆς λίμνης.

Exercise II -- Comment @Σαῦλος

ναῦται εἰσίν

Accent for an enclitic would be ναῦταί εἰσιν. But see my discussion about about the accentation of non-copula uses of ἐστί.

ἐρυθρά ἐστίν

Accent. See my comment for Excercise I.

τὸ ἱστίον

Should be "a" sail?

ἄλλος καθεύδει ὁ δὲ τρίτος παρὰ τῷ πηδαλίῳ ἐστίν

This is close to how I wrote mine, but I've been thinking that it should start out with ὁ μὲν ἄλλος.

οὕτος δεινὸν κίνδυνον

Should be τοῦτον

ἐγγύς ἐστίν

Accent following an oxytone.

οὗτοι εἰσίν

Accent following a properispomenon.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by daivid » Sat May 30, 2015 8:00 pm

mwh wrote:
I don't understand Sidgwick's “ἴσως τούτου τοῦ κύκνου ὀστοῦν λίθῳ διερράγη.”
διερράγη must by self-affected (medio-passive). So, wouldn't “bone” be in the Nominative? “The bone was broken...”
ὀστοῦν is nominative, contracted form of οστεον. (And διερράγη is simply passive.)
I have noticed a tendency with 19th century to cover every possible declension even at the elementary level. Hence if we encounter a really odd form in Sidwick it is likely to be one of those rare declensions that modern textbooks tend skip.
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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by mwh » Sat May 30, 2015 8:38 pm

It’s not really a different declension, just the standard εο > ου contraction that we see in e.g. ποιοῦμεν. (Vowel contractions are listed at Smyth 59.) But it’s not surprising that it threw eveyone, since here it’s not in a contract verb, which we’re used to, but in a noun. This is common in Attic, but you weren't to know that; the uncontracted form, οστέον (2nd decl. neuter), is equally good. So not something brand new you have to learn! People saw that it should be nominative, and so in fact it is—the regular 2nd-decl form with the -ον obscured by the contraction.

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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by daivid » Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:04 pm

Exercise 2 -- Submission
Here is my stab at Exercise 2.
τρεῖς ναῦται εἰσὶ ἐν ἐλεινῷ τῷ πλοίῳ.
ἱμάτια τοῖς ναύταις ἐστὶ ἐρυθρά
ὁ νεός ναύτης ἔχει ἱστίον ἐπὶ τὸν ὦμον.
ἄλλος καθεύδει ἀλλὰ ὁ τρίτος ἐστὶ παρὰ τῳ πηδαλίῳ.
αὑτός οὐ ὁρᾷ τὸν δεινὸν κίνδυνον, ἐστὶ γὰρ πετρᾶν ἐν τῇ λίμνῃ.
αὕτη δὲ ἡ πετρὰ ἐστὶ στερρὰ ἔσται αἰτία θανάτου πόλοις.
νῦν εἰσὶ ἐγγὺς τόπου καὶ ὠχρός εἰμι ὑπὸ φοβοῦ.
ἀποτρέπω τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς.
ἰδοὺ ἔξω τοῦ κινδύνου εἴσι καὶ ἐκ χαράς δάκρυα εισι ἐν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς.


Edit - after comparing I have spotted 3 mistakes myself:
αὑτός οὐ ὁρᾷ τὸν δεινὸν κίνδυνον, ἐστὶ γὰρ πετρᾶν ἐν τῇ λίμνῃ.
αὕτη δὲ ἡ πετρὰ ἐστὶ στερρὰ καὶ ἔσται αἰτία θανάτου πόλοις.
ἰδοὺ ἔξω τοῦ κινδύνου εἴσι καὶ ἐκ χαράς δάκρυα ἐστὶν ἐν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς.
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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by jeidsath » Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:56 pm

Exercise II -- Comment @david

Accentuation: ναῦταί εἰσι
ἐλεινῷ: pitiable?
νεός -> νεὸς
τὸν ὦμον -> τοῦ ὤμου
αὑτός -> οὖτος
πετρᾶν -> πέτρα
ἡ πετρὰ ἐστὶ -> ἡ πέτρα ἐστὶ
νῦν εἰσὶ -> νῦν εἰσι
κινδύνου εἴσι -> κινδύνου εἰσὶ
ὑπὸ χαρᾶς
δάκρυα ἔστιν or δάκρυά ἐστιν (see discussion above). To match the key, it would be the later.
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Re: First Greek Writer Study Group

Post by daivid » Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:04 pm

jeidsath wrote:Exercise II -- Comment @david
<snip>
δάκρυα ἔστιν or δάκρυά ἐστιν (see discussion above). To match the key, it would be the later.
Thanks very much for the comments. Mostly its clear but I couldn't find the discussion unless you mean the points made about oxytones.

Exercise II -- try 2
τρεῖς ναῦται εἰσιν ἐν ἐκείνῳ τῷ πλοίῳ.
ἱμάτια τοῖς ναύταις ἐστιν ἐρυθρά
ὁ νεὸς ναύτης ἔχει ἱστίον ἐπὶ τοῦ ὤμου.
ἄλλος καθεύδει ἀλλὰ ὁ τρίτος ἐστὶ παρὰ τῳ πηδαλίῳ.
οὕτος οὐ ὁρᾷ τὸν δεινὸν κίνδυνον, ἐστὶ γὰρ πέτρα ἐν τῇ λίμνῃ.
αὕτη δὲ ἡ πέτρα ἐστὶ στερρὰ ἔσται αἰτία θανάτου πόλοις.
νῦν εἰσιν ἐγγὺς τόπου καὶ ὠχρός εἰμι ὑπὸ φοβοῦ.
ἀποτρέπω τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς.
ἰδοὺ ἔξω τοῦ κινδύνου εἰσὶ καὶ ὑπὸ χαρᾶς δάκρυά ἐστιν ἐν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς.
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