Alexandros to hellenikon paidion

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bedwere
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Alexandros to hellenikon paidion

Post by bedwere » Mon May 25, 2015 4:46 am

In the ALEXANDROS TO HELLENIKON PAIDION book, at p.189, it is written :


Ἡ σύναρθρος ἀντωνυμία· τῇ συνάρθῳ ἀντωνυμίᾳ χρῶνται καὶ τὰς τῆς ἀντωνυμίας γενικὰς καὶ τάσδε· ἐμός, σός, ἡμέτερος, ὑμέτερος·


The pronoun accompanied by the article: with the pronoun accompanied by the article they [the Greeks?] treat both the genitives of the pronoun and these: my, thy, our, your.

I think I must be missing something. Thanks!
Last edited by bedwere on Mon May 25, 2015 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Alexandros to hellenikon paidion

Post by Markos » Mon May 25, 2015 10:58 am

bedwere wrote:In the ALEXANDROS TO HELLENIKON PAIDION book, at p.189, it is written :


Ἡ σύναρθρος ἀντωνυμία· τῇ συνάρθῳ ἀντωνυμίᾳ χρῶνται καὶ τὰς τῆς ἀντωνυμίας γενικὰς καὶ τάσδε· ἐμός, σός, ἡμέτερος, ὑμέτερος·


The pronoun accompanied by the article: with the pronoun accompanied by the article they [the Greeks?] treat both the genitives of the article and these: my, thy, our, your.

I think I must be missing something. Thanks!
χαῖρε φίλε Ροβέρτο!

As you know, χράομαι typically takes the dative. LSJ says χ. τισιν ες τι, "use for an end or purpose." That's not quite the construction here, (χράομαι τινι τι) but perhaps:

"They (the Greeks) use the articular pronoun also (καί) FOR (the bare accusative here standing in for ἐς plus the accusative) the genitive pronouns, namely (καί) such: ἐμός, σός, ἡμέτερος, ὑμέτερος·"

"they use σός for σου." χρῶνται τῷ «σὸς» ἀντὶ τοῦ «σου»

But I think I am missing something here too. I don't think anyone would really use the και's this way.

βούλομαί σε ἐρρῶσθαι.

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Re: Alexandros to hellenikon paidion

Post by jeidsath » Mon May 25, 2015 2:38 pm

I think that he's trying to describe 2. a. and 2. b. from Thayer here: http://biblehub.com/greek/3588.htm
2. The article is prefixed to substantives expanded and more precisely defined by modifiers; ....

a. to nouns accompanied by a genitive of the pronouns μου, σου, ἡμῶν, ὑμῶν, αὐτοῦ, ἑαυτῶν, αὐτῶν: ....

b. The possessive pronouns ἐμός, σός, ἡμέτερος, ὑμέτερος, joined to substantives (if John 4:34 be excepted) always take the article ....
So building off of Markos, he's trying to say:
The pronoun with an article: They use the pronoun with an article both for a genitive noun that has a pronoun, and for these: ἐμός, σός, ἡμέτερος, ὑμέτερος...
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Re: Alexandros to hellenikon paidion

Post by Markos » Tue May 26, 2015 12:05 am

Yes, Joel, that makes (more sense.) So is he talking about how we say both τὰ σὰ and τὰ σου?

The accusative is still a little hard for me to account for, though the meaning seems clear enough.

Roberto, how is the rest of the L2 metalanguage in the book? Maybe you could posts some more (better?) excerpts.

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Re: Alexandros to hellenikon paidion

Post by bedwere » Tue May 26, 2015 12:15 am

Markos wrote:Yes, Joel, that makes (more sense.) So is he talking about how we say both τὰ σὰ and τὰ σου?

The accusative is still a little hard for me to account for, though the meaning seems clear enough.

Roberto, how is the rest of the L2 metalanguage in the book? Maybe you could posts some more (better?) excerpts.
Maybe there is a typesetting problem somewhere. The rest of the book is of immediate comprehension. However, there are several typos that a more careful proofreading would have spotted (for example, if Marío Díaz Ávila had posted his work on Textkit :D). You can download a pdf with several pages here.

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Re: Alexandros to hellenikon paidion

Post by Markos » Tue May 26, 2015 12:51 am

Yes, this book does look quite good.

Carouso's new monolingual dictionary has triggered in me some embryonic thoughts about what a complete, modern, user friendly monolingual grammar would look like. Suffice it to say that it would not be Dionysius Thrax and it would not be merely a translation into Greek of Smyth. One of the things that Carouso does, is that even if you already had a pretty good grasp of the basic Greek vocabulary from bilingual resources, he causes you to see the connections between words in a new way, in a mono-lingual way. A monolingual grammar would do something similar. It would indeed use some of the elements I see in Marío Díaz Ávila's book; most definitely pictures, symbols, various notations, explaining unfamiliar constructions by comparison/contrast to more familiar ones.

You look at his picture of the horse drawing the cart. What is happening to the cart? We have to stop thinking of that cart as an "object" or "accusative," and it's not enough to simply use L2 terms. By looking at the picture, by somehow EXPLAINING the picture by using Greek words and more pictures/symbols, I think you would get, as Rouse would say a more DIRECT understanding of grammar.

Another embryonic thought that needs more development. Monolingual people like Carouso and Ávila are "lumpers" whereas G/T folks like LSJ and Smyth are "splitters."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpers_and_splitters

I will have more to say about this, if Jesus tarries, in about five years.

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Re: Alexandros to hellenikon paidion

Post by jeidsath » Tue May 26, 2015 1:07 am

Gaza wrote Introductio grammatica that is available in a number of places, including a very readable 16th century manuscript on the Biritish Library viewer.
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Re: Alexandros to hellenikon paidion

Post by bedwere » Tue May 26, 2015 1:09 am

The second part of Alexandros is a basic Greek grammar.
I'd love to have the equivalent of this monolingual Latin grammar, which I own:

Elementa linguae et grammaticae latinae

Let's see if somebody can write a Greek grammar.

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