What does Scil. mean

Here you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get help with a difficult passage of Greek, and more.
Post Reply
daivid
Administrator
Posts: 2744
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:51 pm
Location: ὁ τοῦ βασιλέως λίθος, London, Europe
Contact:

What does Scil. mean

Post by daivid »

I am using a 19th century commentary on Xenophon's Anabasis (MacMichael). It's nice and extensive but it is rather keen on Latin abreviations. I've looked up Scil online but that didn't help. It seems to be using it like "the following word should be assumed" or "supply". Does Scil have that meaning?
An example of how it's used:
ἐλθόντας δὲ Κῦρον αἰτεῖν πλοῖα, ὡς ἀποπλέοιεν:
— ἐλθόντας] Scil. τινάς, 'that certain should go and ask Cyrus for vessels. For this double accusative we have (§ 16) παρὰ τοὺτου, to avoid ambiguity.
Last edited by daivid on Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
λονδον

User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
Posts: 5102
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California
Contact:

Re: What does Scil. mean

Post by bedwere »


daivid
Administrator
Posts: 2744
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:51 pm
Location: ὁ τοῦ βασιλέως λίθος, London, Europe
Contact:

Re: What does Scil. mean

Post by daivid »

bedwere wrote:scilicet
That's a much much fuller definition than I've encountered. It doesn't actually say "the following word should be assumed" or the like but taking it to mean "it is evident" does seem to give that implication in this context.

So thanks for the quick reply.
λονδον

Interaxus
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 581
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:04 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: What does Scil. mean

Post by Interaxus »

Google "scilicet definition"

Vale!
Int

Victor
Textkit Fan
Posts: 253
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:19 am

Re: What does Scil. mean

Post by Victor »

Interaxus wrote:Google "scilicet definition"
One of my wife's friends complained in confidence to her the other day that meaningful conversation with her husband was all but extinct because every time she asked him a question on some topic of interest to her his reply was simply that she should go and "Google it". Google was threatening her marriage, she said; so much so that she was considering a divorce.

My own wife asked me if I could recommend a local solicitor her friend might use if things did break down irretrievably. Though I was busy at the time I had the presence of mind to see the trap lying in wait for me. I told her I didn't know anyone I could recommend, and couldn't even advise her where to begin the search for one, but that I was heartily glad we were able to have these little conversations that helped make our marriage so meaningful and fulfilling.

My wife frowned imperiously, but left me to get on with what I was doing.

daivid
Administrator
Posts: 2744
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:51 pm
Location: ὁ τοῦ βασιλέως λίθος, London, Europe
Contact:

Re: What does Scil. mean

Post by daivid »

Interaxus wrote:Google "scilicet definition"

Vale!
Int
Yes, I did but none of them seemed to be very helpful in the context.
" to wit, namely"
namely means to me "in other words" but, in the commentary, the word that followed scilicet is most certainly not of the same meaning as what preceded it.
λονδον

Interaxus
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 581
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:04 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: What does Scil. mean

Post by Interaxus »

daivid:

I suggested Google because I thought it’d give you a conciser definition. Which I believe it did.

Here’s the context in one Loeb version:

(As you know, King Cyrus's friend, the brilliant - and crafty - general Thearchus, facing mutiny, has planted one of his men among the soldiers to pretend to speak against him (Thearchus))

εἷς δὲ δὴ εἶπε προσποιούμενος σπεύδειν ὡς τάχιστα πορεύεσθαι εἰς τὴν Ἑλλάδα στρατηγοὺς μὲν ἑλέσθαι ἄλλους ὡς τάχιστα, εἰ μὴ βούλεται Κλέαρχος ἀπάγειν· τὰ δ᾿ ἐπιτήδει᾿ ἀγοράζεσθαι—ἡ δ᾿ ἀγορὰ ἦν ἐν τῷ βαρβαρικῷ στρατεύματι—καὶ συσκευάζεσθαι· ἐλθόντας δὲ Κῦρον αἰτεῖν πλοῖα, ὡς ἀποπλέοιεν·

One man in particular, pretending to be in a hurry to proceed back to Greece with all speed, proposed that they should choose other generals as quickly as possible, in case Clearchus did not wish to lead them back; secondly, that they should buy provisions—the market was in the barbarian army!—and pack up their baggage; then, to go to Cyrus and ask for vessels to sail away in;

From my intrepid Unicorn parser I get:

ἔρχομαι, ἐλεύσομαι, ἦλθον, ἐλήλυθα, -, -: come, go
ελθ-οντασ : Participle, 2nd aorist act, acc pl (masc)

τίς, τί: (interrogative pronoun/adjective) who?, which?, what?; (indefinite pronoun) (enclitic) someone, anyone, something, anything
τινασ : Pronoun, acc pl (masc, fem)

Xenophon didn’t write τινασ but the commentator points out that it is nevertheless UNDERSTOOD (THAT IS TO SAY, NAMELY, VIZ, ID EST) (‘SOME FOLKS going/having gone to Cyrus’) as an acc plur masc adjectival pronoun matching the acc plural masc of the aorist participle ελθοντασ.

The accusative being part of the indirect speech construct.

At least, that’s how I understand it. (But I'm only a tyro).

2.

Victor:

Be careful what you blame Google for. My divorces all happened before Google appeared on the scene. Glad I didn’t have to wait for Google.

But I hate the abuse of cell-phones in human company.

Vale/te!
Int

daivid
Administrator
Posts: 2744
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:51 pm
Location: ὁ τοῦ βασιλέως λίθος, London, Europe
Contact:

Re: What does Scil. mean

Post by daivid »

Interaxus wrote:
(As you know, King Cyrus's friend, the brilliant - and crafty - general Thearchus, facing mutiny, has planted one of his men among the soldiers to pretend to speak against him (Thearchus))
That has answered a question that I had not yet asked. Xenophon does not explicitly say that man was one of those planted and not one of those speaking spontaneously. Klearchos clearly was a friend of Xenophon and his account here coveys to approval of Klearchos' actions. Hence I hesitated to assume that Xenophon was giving his approval of something so manipulative - positively Putin-esqe in fact.

It is a rather sobering insight into Xenophon's politics.
λονδον

Interaxus
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 581
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:04 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: What does Scil. mean

Post by Interaxus »

daivid:
Xenophon does not explicitly say that man was one of those planted and not one of those speaking spontaneously.
I think

εἷς δὲ δὴ εἶπε προσποιούμενος σπεύδειν ὡς τάχιστα πορεύεσθαι εἰς τὴν Ἑλλάδα ...
(one namely [scilicet, of those instructed] said, PRETENDING to be in a hurry to go to Greece as quickly as possible, …)

leaves little room for doubt which category Xenophon wanted us to believe this speaker belonged to.

Yes, many of those old Greeks were inveterate schemers. We know what Vergil thought of them, “et dona ferentes”. Clearchus had an eminent role model in the wiliest Greek of all, scilicet Ulysses, while Xenophon himself was scolded by his tutor, scilicet Socrates, for manipulating the Delphic oracle.

Clearchus came to a sticky end, while Xenophon ended up writing a textbook, scilicet Anabasis, for 21st century ancient language learners.

What Fate holds in store for Putin is anyone’s guess.

Ur vales!
Int

daivid
Administrator
Posts: 2744
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:51 pm
Location: ὁ τοῦ βασιλέως λίθος, London, Europe
Contact:

Re: What does Scil. mean

Post by daivid »

Interaxus wrote:daivid:
Xenophon does not explicitly say that man was one of those planted and not one of those speaking spontaneously.
I think

εἷς δὲ δὴ εἶπε προσποιούμενος σπεύδειν ὡς τάχιστα πορεύεσθαι εἰς τὴν Ἑλλάδα ...
(one namely [scilicet, of those instructed] said, PRETENDING to be in a hurry to go to Greece as quickly as possible, …)

leaves little room for doubt which category Xenophon wanted us to believe this speaker belonged to.

Yes, many of those old Greeks were inveterate schemers. We know what Vergil thought of them, “et dona ferentes”. Clearchus had an eminent role model in the wiliest Greek of all, scilicet Ulysses, while Xenophon himself was scolded by his tutor, scilicet Socrates, for manipulating the Delphic oracle.
My first thought was that Xenophon was displaying is contempt for someone who came up with such an impracticable scheme that he he expressed his disbelief that anyone who really think it could work. When it dawned on me that this guy was one of the planted I found it hard to believe that Xenophon would be so open about is approval of such dishonesty.

What I guess that I was missing was that Xenophon's target audience are far from committed democrats. Indeed some of them were like as not extreme oligarchs. Perhaps Xenophon's agenda here is to say to such people that fake democracy is much better way of keeping control than open oligarchy?
λονδον

Interaxus
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 581
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:04 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: What does Scil. mean

Post by Interaxus »

daivid:

Your first thought was right. The audience of undecided mercenaries was supposed to feel that way when listening to the stooge’s speech and thus be swayed in Clearchus’s favour. Clearchus gets his stooge to say things which a) are SEEMINGLY objectively reasoned against Clearchus (swap leaders) and then b) are patently unwise, like shopping in the barbarians’ market, thus demolishing the speaker's credibility after all.

Mather and Hewitt (Xenophon's Anabasis, books I-IV, 1910) comment:

“- ἡ δ᾽ ἀγορὰ , etc.: inserted by Xenophon to show the absurdity of the advice. The barbarian and the Greek forces of Cyrus were in every way distinct and not altogether friendly to one another”.

The mercenaries themselves were probably not concerned one way or the other about political ideologies but only about what best served their own immediate interests.

Vale!
Int

User avatar
jeidsath
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 5332
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: What does Scil. mean

Post by jeidsath »

The main thing going on in Anabasis 1.3 is highlighted for the reader right here:
Κῦρος δὲ τούτοις ἀπορῶν τε καὶ λυπούμενος μετεπέμπετο τὸν Κλέαρχον· ὁ δὲ ἰέναι μὲν οὐκ ἤθελε, λάθρᾳ δὲ τῶν στρατιωτῶν πέμπων αὐτῷ ἄγγελον ἔλεγε θαρρεῖν ὡς καταστησομένων τούτων εἰς τὸ δέον. μεταπέμπεσθαι δ’ ἐκέλευεν αὐτόν· αὐτὸς δ’ οὐκ ἔφη ἰέναι.
Don't worry, Cyrus, it's all in hand.

Xenophon's complicated feelings about being manipulated by Clearchus and Cyrus are described more fully in 3.1. You get more of Xenophon's "politics" from the obituary of Cyrus and later books of the Anabasis. He believes in discipline, piety, and leadership. He has seen both tyranny and mob rule and dislikes both. He considers himself a leader that sacrifices on behalf of his men. He believes in the power of speech and rhetoric in inspiring others. He was a man of his age, and that age was not our age.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

daivid
Administrator
Posts: 2744
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:51 pm
Location: ὁ τοῦ βασιλέως λίθος, London, Europe
Contact:

Re: What does Scil. mean

Post by daivid »

jeidsath wrote: Xenophon's complicated feelings about being manipulated by Clearchus and Cyrus are described more fully in 3.1. You get more of Xenophon's "politics" from the obituary of Cyrus and later books of the Anabasis. He believes in discipline, piety, and leadership. He has seen both tyranny and mob rule and dislikes both. He considers himself a leader that sacrifices on behalf of his men. He believes in the power of speech and rhetoric in inspiring others. He was a man of his age, and that age was not our age.
But it is not true that there were no democrats in his age. What has come down to us is what the Greek elite of Roman empire chose to preserve and as in that period democracy was indeed dead it is a safe bet that democratic writers are disproportionately among the lost works. In Xenophon's day democracy was very much alive and that shapes how Xenophon writes. A writer who is opposed to democracy who writes in an era when it is very much alive even as he opposes democracy has been influenced by that alternative and it helps our understanding to be aware of that subtext.

And just because he claims to be, as a leader, sacrificing for his men - should we believe him?
λονδον

commercial_4
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 10:42 am

Re: What does Scil. mean

Post by commercial_4 »

late 14c., Latin, "you may know, you may be sure, it is certain," used in sense "that is to say, namely," contraction of scire licit "it is permitted to know," from scire "to know" (see science ); for second element see licit. Used as was Old English hit is to witanne, literally "it is to wit" (see wit (v.)). Often abbreviated sc. or scil.

Post Reply