Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 11

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jaihare
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 11

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CanadianGirl wrote:Exercise 11ζ
1. The woman learning that the child was blind, said to the man (husband) “Oh Zeus what ought we to do?”
It’s quite OK to translate τῷ ἀνδρί as “to her husband.” It does indeed contain the concept of possession. If it were someone else’s husband, then we would expect to see τῷ ἀνδρὶ αὐτῆς “to her [the other woman’s] husband.” If it’s the husband of the subject, then we would not expect to see a possessive pronoun.
CanadianGirl wrote:2. Arriving at the home of the brother, she (or he) said to him what the child suffered (or experienced).
Again, possession is implied. It should be “their brother.” The subject of εἶπον is plural, so it is “they said” rather than “she (or he) said.” This is where we get the “their” of possession, since the subject is both the man and his wife (or, the wife and her husband).

I think we should understand εἶπον in this case as a report of what happened, so it should be “they told him what the child had gone through” or something similar. “Said” is kinda bland for such a situation. I told say to you what I did – I tell you what I did.
CanadianGirl wrote:3. The men, leaving the women in the house, led the child to the doctor.
Good.
CanadianGirl wrote:4. The farmer leading the dog up (or to) the hill, discovered the wolf attacking the sheep.
I would take πρὸς τὸ ὄρος as “to the mountain” and ἀνὰ τὸ ὄρος as “up the mountain.” This sentence doesn’t really tell us if they went up the mountain. You could translate πρός as “up to” and then say that he led the dog up to the mountain, which is fine. It just doesn’t imply an upward direction.

I’d think of τὸ ὄρος as something bigger than a hill in our minds. A small hill is called ὁ βουνός. (Cf. Luke 3:5 – πᾶν ὄρος [mountain] καὶ βουνὸς [hill] ταπεινωθήσεται.) I’ll grant that ὄρος is sometimes translated as “hill,” but it’s better to think of it as a large hill or mountain. I’m not sure if the farmer in this sentence took the dog to the base of the mountain, where he found the wolf attacking the sheep, or if he actually just walked in the direction of the mountain, but I’d translate it as if they went to rather than toward the mountain.
CanadianGirl wrote:5. The mother having prepared food for the child, ordered him to hurry to the field
The verb παρασχοῦσα is an aorist participle of παρέχω, which doesn’t mean “prepare.” The word “prepare” is quite close to this, which can account for the confusion. It would be παρασκευάζω, so the corresponding participle would be παρασκευάσασα (aor part act fs “having prepared”). What this sentence should say, though, is that she gave him food or supplied food for the child. παρέχω is to provide, supply, hand over.

Also, to be precise, the verb κελεύει is the present tense.

“Having provided the boy food, his mother ordered him to hurry to the field.”
CanadianGirl wrote:6. Arriving at the field he delivers dinner to his father.
And here you translated an aorist (παρέσχες) as a present (“delivers”). Why not as the past? You translated a present tense as the past (which is acceptable if we’re looking at a full narrative), so why translate an aorist as present?

As a general note, the aorist participle should not be thought of as concomitant with the main verb. It should be thought of as happening before it or providing background for it. That is, “having arrived [the arriving is finished], he gave…” It’s also common in colloquial translation to just say “he arrived and gave.” Translating the aorist participle with a simple -ing in English might mislead the reader, who will understand the action of the participle as ongoing while the main verb takes place.

What’s the difference between: “saying a blessing, he gave them the bread” and “having said a blessing, he gave them the bread”? Obviously, in the first one we would assume that he was still blessing either them or the bread as he gave it to them. In the second one, he finished the blessing before he started to hand out the bread. The first would naturally be a present participle in Greek; the second would be an aorist participle.
CanadianGirl wrote:7. The father, leaving the plow in the field, took the dinner.
Again, translate λιπών as “having left” rather than as “leaving” so as to distinguish it from λείπων.
CanadianGirl wrote:8. So the child throws (something) at the wolf, and he (the wolf) flees, terrified.
I would not translate μέν... δέ… as “so… and…” The word “so” is best rendered by οὖν (“therefore, then, so”). Here we have a contrast of what the boy did and what the wolf did. “On the one hand, the boy pelted the wolf; on the other hand, the wolf was afraid and fled.” We often render μέν... δέ... as “while” or “whereas” one thing happened, another also happened. You can also just leave μέν untranslated.

“The boy pelted the wolf, and it ran away scared.”
“While the boy pelted the wolf, it ran away scared.”
“Whereas the boy pelted the wolf, it conversely ran away scared.”

Anything of the sort, but leave “so” out of it, since it is not a conclusion of anything.
CanadianGirl wrote:9. The young people died, while fighting for the city.
Excellent.
CanadianGirl wrote:10. Suffering terrible things, they could not flee but they fell, fighting bravely.
The participle παθόντες is aorist – “having suffered.” There is no sense of “could not” here. Just render οὐκ ἔφυγον as “they did not run away.” It’s not that they couldn’t run away (as if they were cowards who found no way of escape). Rather, they did not run away (because they were brave and would rather die fighting for their city).

“Having suffered terrible things, they did not run away; rather, they fell bravely fighting (for the city [from the previous sentence]).”

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 11

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CanadianGirl wrote:Exercise 11ι
1. “Come here, oh brother, and help me!”
Yes.
CanadianGirl wrote:2. “Yesterday I saw a wolf approaching the sheep-fold.”
Yes.
CanadianGirl wrote:3. “Perhaps we might see him on the hill and catch him.”
Do you take ἴσως as coloring the verb ὀψόμεθα to create a modal of sorts? Why not “perhaps we will see it”? (Since αὐτόν refers to the wolf, it’s fine to translate it as neuter [“it”] in English.)
CanadianGirl wrote:4. So the boys, having arrived at the sheep-fold, saw the wolf coming from the mountains.
Yes. See how you translated οὖν as “so”? That’s right! You also caught the sense of the aorist participle (ἀφικόμενοι). The only thing you missed is the difference between ἰόντα and κατιόντα. It should have been coming down out of the mountains.
CanadianGirl wrote:5. Seeing the wolf they take up stones and pursue him.
Yes. (Just “having seen” instead of “seeing” to be consistent with our practice of the aorist participle.)
CanadianGirl wrote:6. But the grandfather, seeing the boys, took his stick and went to help out.
Again, “having seen” for ἰδών.
CanadianGirl wrote:7. The boys saw grandfather approach and said: “Come on grandfather, we will wait fo you.”
Typo: “for you.”
I think we were given ἄγε as “come on!” and ἴθι δή as “go on!” ἐλθὲ δεῦρο means “come here!” They’re calling his attention. In English, we’d probably say “over here!”
CanadianGirl wrote:8. “Hurry. We will go to the mountain (or hill) and catch the wolf.”
ἴμεν is present tense (“we’re going”).
“We are going to the mountains (pl) and will catch the wolf.”
CanadianGirl wrote:9. And grandfather said: “Kids, come back here, don’t go up to the mountain for you won’t see the wolf.”
I’d take ὁ δέ here as contrastive: “But [their] grandfather said…”
Again, πρός doesn’t contain information saying “up.” He says, “Don’t go to the mountains.” τὰ ὄρη is plural. εὐρήσετε is “you (pl) will not find,” not “see.”
CanadianGirl wrote:10. Speaking thus, (having spoken thus) he led the children homeward.
Aorist participle: “having spoken thus.”
οἴκαδε can be translated simply as “home” in the directional sense (like German heim).

Overall, quite nice. :)

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 11

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CanadianGirl wrote:Athenaze Lesson 11 mu
1. The farmer, going to the field, saw his daughter sitting under the tree.
That is, “having entered the field” (εἰς τὸν ἀγρὸν εἰσελθών).
CanadianGirl wrote:2. So he went to her and said: Why are you sitting under the tree weeping, oh daughter?
Yes. (Why didn’t you include quotation marks for the speech?)
CanadianGirl wrote:3. And she said: I was carrying your dinner, Father, I fell on the road and I hurt my fot.
“While I was bringing you food, I fell in the road and…”
Rather than translating the participle as a simple imperfect, why not render it as here?
CanadianGirl wrote:4. And he said: Come here, I need to look at your foot.
Yes.
CanadianGirl wrote:5. So, he looked at ther foot and seeing that she was not ill (=injured), he said: Cheer up, daughter, you are not doing bad. So, get my dinner ready, and come back home (or go back home).
Is σκοπεῖ a past tense?
Why did you translate οὐδὲν κακὸν ἔπαθες as “you are not doing bad”? Shouldn’t it be “nothing bad has happened to you” or “you have not suffered anything bad”?

Again, don’t confuse between παρέχω (“hand over”) and παρασκευάζω (“prepare”). He tells her to give him the dinner that she brought and go home. He didn’t tell her to build a fire and start making food for him. There’s a difference. ;)
CanadianGirl wrote:6. So the girl got dinner ready for father and slowly went home.
Aorist participle…
“So the girl, having given the dinner to her father, slowly went away home.”

Notice the present of ἀπό on the verb ἀπῆλθεν “went away.”

Some of the same mistakes from the previous exercises (confusion between παρέχω and παρασκευάζω; handling of participles with relation to the main verb of the clause). But, very nice overall. The sentences generally convey the meaning of the Greek, except with the verb παρέχω.

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 11

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CanadianGirl,

Does that mean that you don't intend to do the English-to-Greek translations at the end? I think these are the most challenging and most useful!

I'll go ahead and open up chapter 12 now. I won't type out the exercises, but I'll put up a template.

Jason

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 11

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The new thread is now open.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=63335&p=172309#p172309

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 11

Post by CanadianGirl »

Jaihare-Thanks-not completely finished, but it does seem that we've been working on 11 for about ten years, hope everybody agrees that it's time to move on! Regards, Paige.

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 11

Post by brunapogliano »

Hi, both of you
I'm still alive and slowly working through Chapter 12. Starting from the end of May my other activities should slow down markedly and I am already planning a good summer working on Greek.

:D
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 11

Post by testsuda »

Dear all,

I'm sory for disturbing your discussion. I'm self-studing Athenaze too, and hope there is a key for all the Ancient Greek texts of the books.

If anyone had, and if it's convenient for you, please kindly share with me

Great thanks

Sincerely yours,

Huynh Trong Khanh

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 11

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testsuda wrote:Dear all,

I'm sory for disturbing your discussion. I'm self-studing Athenaze too, and hope there is a key for all the Ancient Greek texts of the books.

If anyone had, and if it's convenient for you, please kindly share with me

Great thanks

Sincerely yours,

Huynh Trong Khanh
Do you mean to say that you hope that someone has translated all of the stories into English? I should hope not. The point of it is to get you to read Greek, not to translate into English.

Do you have specific questions about the text?

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