verbal adjectives

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vir litterarum
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verbal adjectives

Post by vir litterarum » Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:47 pm

I understand the usage of these adjectives and the constructions in which they are used; furthermore, I see that their usage is nearly identical to the usage of the gerundive in Latin. What is the equivalent of a verbal adjective in English?

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IreneY
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Post by IreneY » Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:50 pm

Depending on which one you use:

-τος = -able . Διαβατός = crossable
-τέος I cannot think of an one-word equivalent right now. "to be -ed" perhaps? Διαβατός = to be crossed? As in must be crossed?

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Post by vir litterarum » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:01 am

but what part of speech is it equivalent to.

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Post by annis » Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:24 pm

vir litterarum wrote:but what part of speech is it equivalent to.
I'm not sure there is anything in English exactly answering to the verbal adjective. We have to make do with a paraphrase, where Greek gets a single adjective.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
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Post by Bert » Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:22 pm

Maybe I am misunderstanding the exact meaning of 'verbal adjective.'
Are these single words examples of verbal adjectives?
The snoring man.
The burning bush.
The howling wind.

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Post by IreneY » Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:26 pm

Well it might be a difference of terminology but we call verbal adjectives only those ending in -τός, -τέος here so, since I would use a participle in the case of these 3 examples ("?οχαλίζων" [sorry, no idea how snore is in ancient Greek so I made up a participle using the modern Greek verb], "καιόμενη βάτος", "αλυχτων " I'd say these are not exactly the equivalent of verbal adjectives.

Verbal adjectives (for us) are those who come from a verb and show that something either is doable or must be done.

Do you call these -ing ones verbal adjectives??

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Post by Bert » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:46 pm

Thank you Irene.
IreneY wrote:
Do you call these -ing ones verbal adjectives??
I thought that a Greek (and English) participle was a verbal adjective.
An English gerund (which has the same form as a participle) I would call a verbal noun.
The working men are hot and sweaty. (participle)
Working can make you hot and sweaty. (gerund)

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Post by annis » Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:25 pm

Bert wrote:TI thought that a Greek (and English) participle was a verbal adjective.
A participle is an adjective form a verb, but since those get their own name, people tend to use "verbal adjective" to describe the other, non-participle ones.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Post by IreneY » Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:22 am

Bert thanks for understanding what that pathetic '-ing' ones meant,
Annis thank you for providing an explanation that, at least for Greek terminology, I should have.

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Post by easternugget » Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:32 pm

Could someone write a simple example of a verbal adjective being used? Are they used in Koine? I haven't heard of them though I haven't studied Greek for a long time.

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Post by IreneY » Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:30 pm

You mean an example from a text?

The only ones I can think are the pair I use to explain the difference of the -τέος and -τός v.a. to my students. If you want I can search for some real ones. (note: the -τός v.a. do not always mean the one to whom something can [or the one who deserves something to] happen to.)

Διαβατός ?στί ? ποταμός
(The river is crossable, can be crossed)

Διαβατέος ?στί ? ποταμός
(The river must be crossed [by whomever]).

They do exist in Koine but I don't remember any specific instance in NT but then I don't remember my Bible all that well I'm afraid

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Post by mraig » Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:57 pm

There is a third use of the -εος verbal adj. - they are sometimes used impersonally, but still with an active sense. Therefore you might see διαβατέος ? πόταμος for 'the river must be crossed' (with the adj. agreeing with the noun in case/number/gender), but you might also see the verbal adj. in the neuter singular nominative, taking an accusative object:

διαβατέον τὸν πόταμον (note that these do not agree here, even though they look like they do - you would also have διαβαέον τὴν ὅδον etc, because the verbal adj. is neuter, and agrees with nothing).

This would be translated "one must cross the river", and doesn't correspond to any normal use of the gerundive in Latin.

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Post by Bert » Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:58 pm



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Post by IreneY » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:52 pm

I looked it up and it seems that there's only one -τέος verbal adjective in NT. It's in Luke 5:38, ἀλλὰ οἶνον νέον εἰς ἀσκοὺς καινοὺς βλητέον

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