Mi verbs

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Thucydides
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Mi verbs

Post by Thucydides » Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:44 pm

Greetings.

I am trying to really learn the -mi verbs once and for all. It seems to me that the best way to do this is learn them all at once, noticing the patterns and delving a little into the philology. What I've written here is what I currently know about the verbs in general (what I call 'the three classes') and then my version of the present indicative active of class I (as far as I've got so far). I'm hoping that people will find my horrible mistakes, add their own knowledge/thoughts on the patterns or philology, or even find it useful.

The three classes:

I) Reduplicated stem + mi (didomi, tithemi, istemi, hiemi)
II) Stem + mi (eimi, eimi, phemi)
III) Stem + numi (deiknumi etc.)

I) Reduplicated Stem + mi

These are thematic - the vowel of the stem alternates between long and short forms. The vowel of the stem can either be e (alternating between epsilon and iota) or o (alternating between omicron and omega).

Some tenses use the reduplicated stem - tith, did, ist, hi; others use the plain stem - th, d, st, he [stems can be explained by Grassman's Law and loss of *y]

Verb form: stem + thematic vowel + ending.

Present Indicative:

Reduplicated stem + long vowel for singular/short vowel for plural + mi, s, si(n), men, te, asi

e.g. didwmi, didws, didwsi; didomen, didote, didoasi
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Thucydides
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Post by Thucydides » Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:51 pm

Aorist Indicative:

Augment + Plain stem + thematic vowel + ending.

Endings are -ka, -kas, -ke, -men, -te, -san

Short vowel for singular, long vowel for plural.

e.g. edwka, edwkas, edwke; edomen, edote, edosan

(hiemi's aorist: e-h eta -ka > h-eta-ka; in plural, e-h-espilon-men > h-ei-men)
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Thucydides
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Post by Thucydides » Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:53 pm

Lol, I am stuck on the imperfects.

I'll see if I can hunt this down in Sihler.
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annis
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Re: Mi verbs

Post by annis » Fri Jan 14, 2005 11:15 pm

Thucydides wrote:I am trying to really learn the -mi verbs once and for all.
Greek is so selfish! It's always μι μι μι!

Warning: I am about to rant a bit, but I hope that some some of the points I make will be helpful to you. I've found they help me.

The taxonomy we use in Greek grammar is just awful. It's old - sometimes ancient. It is ignorant of history. Many of the classifications are hugely misleading.

Like the so-called -μι verbs. This is misleading. None of these are -μι verbs, they're verbs with -μι presents.

Second, calling them -μι verbs introduces the idea that there's something magical about the present stem. This is annoying because there is a small but oft-used class of aorists which have no -μι anywhere in sight, but which have the same features of the system. For this to be clear, I must clear up one misconception:
I) Reduplicated stem + mi (didomi, tithemi, istemi, hiemi)
II) Stem + mi (eimi, eimi, phemi)
III) Stem + numi (deiknumi etc.)

I) Reduplicated Stem + mi

These are thematic - the vowel of the stem alternates between long and short forms. The vowel of the stem can either be e (alternating between epsilon and iota) or o (alternating between omicron and omega).
These are in fact not thematic. That vowel length alternation, mostly lost in historical Greek, is the the fundamental primitive feature of the athematic systems. The only time you get to be thematic is when the familiar ε/ο theme vowels are present before your endings.

Take the verb βαίνω. This is not called a -μι verb. But its aorist, ἔβην, is in the classic athematic model, including, in Homer, the vowel length variation: both ἔβαμεν and ἔβημεν are used.

In my opinion the -μι business should be chucked out the window. These should be called "athematic presents." The indo-europeanistical historical linguistical forces operating on δίδωμι are the same as those operating on ἔβην.

I have found thinking in these terms makes a lot of stuff clearer. The aorist morphology tutorial I wrote for Textkit includes propaganda against the "first aorist" and "second aorist" vocabulary for similar reasons I've expressed here against the -μι business.
Reduplicated stem + long vowel for singular/short vowel for plural + mi, s, si(n), men, te, asi


*-nti, I believe.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

Emma_85
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Post by Emma_85 » Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:25 am

I'm not sure if this is any help, but the best way to learn the μι verbs (or athematic presents :lol: ) is to learn the whole thing at once.
Learn the lovely principle parts rows of
τιθημι :
θησω, εθηκα, τεθηκα, κειμαι, ετεθην, τεθησομαι
(or what ever order you learn your principle parts in)
ἱημι :
ἡσω, ἡκα, εἱκα, εἱμαι, εἱθην, ἑθησομαι
διδομι :
δωσω, εδωκα, δεδωκα, δεδομαι, εδοθην, δοθησομαι
and then *gulp* ἱστημι :
active: στησω, εστησα, ‐
ἱσταμαι :
passiv: σταθησομαι, εσταθην, ‐
tr. medium: στησομαι, εστησαμην, ‐
intr. medium: στησομαι, εστην, ἑστηκα, εἱστηκειν, ἑστηξω

And then you need to learn the root-aorists too, they sort of belong in the same groop. εστην for example is conjugated like εβην or εδυν etc. so you may as well learn them while you're at it.

Of course you need to know more than just the principle parts of those 4 verbs, you've got to learn how to conjugate them too and of course ειναι 's and ἰεναι , oh and don't forget the forms of φημι and οιδα . :P

As for the imperfect, that's very easy, because the Imperfect has the present stem, with it's reduplication plus an augment and different endings. So basically if you have present stem plus an augment... you can't go wrong really, especially with the different endings too.

e.g. present:
διδωμι
διδως
διδωσἱν)
διδομεν
διδοτε
διδοασἱν)
imperfect:
εδιδουν
εδιδους
εδιδου
εδιδομεν
εδιδοτε
εδιδοσαν

Sorry about any missing accents, I don't remember any accents :wink: .
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Kladaradatsj
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Post by Kladaradatsj » Sun Jan 16, 2005 12:14 pm

Accents for verbs are relatively simple. Just remember it's regressive (for most verb forms! Some forms have persistent accent, like the aorist infinitive active.)

This means that when your last syllable (before any contractions) was short, you have an accented antepenult (the second syllable before the last).

If you have a long syllable at the end, you accent the penult (the one just before the last).

Long syllables often are those with -w-, -h-, -ou-, -ei-, etc.
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Post by yadfothgildloc » Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:57 pm

Is the final i in -mi verbs long? I remember it being short, but I'm not certain.

Kladaradatsj
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Post by Kladaradatsj » Mon Jan 17, 2005 10:52 am

It is short: therefore you write di/dwmi, (i/sthmi, ti/qhmi, (i/hmi.
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Regressive Verb Accents

Post by rustymason » Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:34 pm

White: ~ "Verbs have regressive accents, which means that they are thrown back as far as possible."

As far back as possible to where? Back to the front (antepenult) or back to the end (ultima)?

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Re: Regressive Verb Accents

Post by annis » Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:05 pm

rustymason wrote:As far back as possible to where? Back to the front (antepenult) or back to the end (ultima)?
Back toward the front, which may or may not go as far as the antepenult.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Re: Mi verbs

Post by Democritus » Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:52 pm

Annis, do you have any plans to write a textbook? The world can always use a better textbook. :)

annis
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Re: Mi verbs

Post by annis » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:18 pm


William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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