Reading Thucydides 2014

[pster]

So I checked out the NASA pages briefly. There was an eclipse in 424. The path was north of Greece.

See the big path over Scandanavia on this map:

http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEatlas/SE ... s-0439.GIF

And if you look at this pdf for more detail, it was visible over Greece:

http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEhistory/ ... Mar21A.pdf

NASA dates it in March. Thucydides says that it happened at the beginning of the summer.

Furthermore, see the paper:

The Eclipses Recorded by Thucydides
F. Richard Stephenson and Louay J. Fatoohi
Historia: Zeitschrift für Alte Geschichte
Bd. 50, H. 2 (2nd Qtr., 2001), pp. 245-253

http://www.jstor.org/pss/4436614

They present a table:

"Table 1: Solar eclipses visible at Athens around the time of the Peloponnesian War
Date (B.C.) Magnitude Time Altitude
433 Mar 30 0.55 14:15 43
431 Aug 3 0.88 17:30 18
426 Nov 4 0.32 14:05 30
424 Mar 21 0.71 08:30 27
418Junl 1 0.12 11:40 74
411 Jan 27 0.35 10:20 28
409 Jun 1 0.47 12:00 73
405 Mar 20 0.38 17:45 0
404 Sep 3 0.73 08:35 36
402 Jan 1 1.04 09:00 17" (p.247)

And they write:

"The second solar eclipse noted by Thucydides (4.52.1) occurred "at the very beginning of
summer", seven years after the previous eclipse. From Table 1, it is evident that the eclipse of
B.C. 424 Mar 21 must be referred to here. This event took place at the appropriate time of year and would be quite significant: magnitude 0.71 at Athens and much the same throughout the Aegean (for instance 0.74 at Thrace) at about 8:30 a.m." (p. 248)

It is a fun paper and has lots of nice pictures. Highly recommended.

[Bob Manske]

I know about that eclipse and referenced it in one of my earlier posts. The descriptions you reference are modern interpretations of what an eclipse looks like. They rely on predictive techniques and instrumentation not available to the ancients. I've seen solar eclipses from even closer than the distance from Scandinavia to Greece and I'll tell you right now at that distance, you have to know that an eclipse was taking place. A 71% diminution in the Sun's light seems like a lot, and it is, but even then Sun is still so very brilliant that it's blinding. You can't look directly at it even when it's even 99% covered. The light shining through what are called "Bailey's Beads" on the edge of the Moon is intense. And that is more than 99% coverage. Believe me.

I observed a partial from Madison just a few years ago. It was near Christmas. It got up to something in the area of 50% coverage. If you didn't know the eclipse was on, you would never have noticed the diminution of light. It made no impression at all on the community.

So I repeat, I don't think this eclipse is a candidate. I would like it to be. But it doesn't seem like it is. You have to be much closer to the center line to notice it casually.

But I'm glad you're looking this stuff up on your own. That's what I'm trying to generate.

[Paul Derouda]

Very basic question. This is one of the reasons I find Attic so hard. 1.23.1:

τῶν δὲ πρότερον ἔργων μέγιστον ἐπράχθη τὸ Μηδικόν, καὶ τοῦτο ὅμως δυοῖν ναυμαχίαιν καὶ πεζομαχίαιν ταχεῖαν τὴν κρίσιν ἔσχεν.

What is the subject of ἐπράχθη? And what is the object? Is there an article missing? Is there a supressed "to be"? What steps do you follow in understanding the structure of this?

I suppose what's misleading you is πρότερον, which is an adverb here (or something), and does not go with the other neuters. τὸ Μηδικόν [ἔργον] is subject and μέγιστον is predicative.

Bob, about the longitude problem: The reason they were trying to chart the movements of the moon or the satellites of Jupiter was precisely that they didn't have any reliable watch set to standard time, as any watch before John Harrison's chronometre was next to useless on the sea for this purpose. They thought they could observe the moon or Jupiter's satellites, compare their observations to pre-made charts and establish standard time like that, and this standard time compared to the local solar time would permit to establish longitude. Just imagine how difficult it would have been, peeking at Jupiter's moons and trying to make out their relative positions on some shaky little ship!

[Bob Manske]

Bob, about the longitude problem: The reason they were trying to chart the movements of the moon or the satellites of Jupiter was precisely that they didn't have any reliable watch set to standard time, as any watch before John Harrison's chronometre was next to useless on the sea for this purpose. They thought they could observe the moon or Jupiter's satellites, compare their observations to pre-made charts and establish standard time like that, and this standard time compared to the local solar time would permit to establish longitude. Just imagine how difficult it would have been, peeking at Jupiter's moons and trying to make out their relative positions on some shaky little ship!

Well, sea-borne observations are very difficult, yes. As for the rest, yes, I think that's what I said, or tried to at any rate. Regardless, the system still required sea-borne observations but now, for the first time, they had a reliable base-line to compare them with. So I am in full agreement with you on this. Absolutely.

Different issue, eclipses, nothing to do with the above: Might as well get this all done in one post:

As for the eclipse of -0423 (=424 BCE): Here's how it works. Astronomy uses a magnitude scale derived from work originally performed by an ancient Greek, Hipparkhos. Hipparkhos started with the brightest stars in the sky, which he called "first magnitude" and then went on down through "second", "third", etc., until he got to "sixth" which was as faint as he could see. OK. So we have a difference of five magnitudes between the bright ones and the faint ones. Well enough.

There is where matters stood until the 19th century when technology allowed astronomers to actually measure, as opposed to estimate, stellar brightnesses. Taking representative first and sixth magnitude stars, they discovered the sixth magnitude stars are actually about 100 time fainter than first magnitude stars. In other words, the human (and presumably this is true for other animals as well) visual system is skewed to prevent the bright objects from swamping the faint ones. Fainter objects appear much brighter to us in relation to brighter objects than they really are. Further investigation revealed that representative stars of any given magnitude were about 2.5 times brighter or fainter than stars of neighboring magnitudes. So the astronomers institutionalized it. They defined a difference of one magnitude as being a difference of the fifth root of 100 times in brightness (= approx. 2.5).

A rough idea of how this works, based on a first magnitude star, is:
first = 1 brightness
second = 1/2.5 brightness
third = 1/6 brightness
fourth = 1/16 brightness
fifth = 1/40 brightness
sixth = 1/100 brightness

For reference, all the stars in the Big Dipper are second magnitude stars except the one where the handle joins the bowl. That guy is a third magnitude star. Polaris is also a second magnitude star.

So, to get the actual difference in brightness between two objects, using the difference in magnitudes between them as an exponent you get 2.5 ^ difference (where "^" means use the following number as an exponent). A difference of five magnitudes is then 2.5 to the fifth power which is: 100.

Once the measured magnitude scale was defined, astronomers could talk about an extended range of magnitudes - and they did. Let's take some everyday examples. On this extended magnitude scale they placed the Sun and the Moon. The Sun is very nearly at -27 magnitude (very, very bright as the negative sign indicates). The Full Moon is about -13 (very, very bright). Those numbers look very close, don't they? 27/13 is just a bit more than 2. So the Sun isn't all that much brighter than the Full Moon, right?

Wrong.

It's 2.5 to the 14th power times brighter than the Full Moon. I'll do the math for you. That's about 400,000 times brighter. I kid you not. It is extremely bright.

Now a 70% obscured Sun, in the eclipse you're talking about, shines about 30% brighter than normal. In other words, it's only about 1/3 as bright as before. How does this compare to a Full Moon? You can do this one in your head. 1/3 of 400,000 is about 130,000. A 70% obscured Sun is about 130,000 times brighter than a Full Moon! Next time you see a Full Moon, imagine something about 130,000 times brighter and you have a Sun as it was visible from Athens during the eclipse of -0423. Now tell me about how noticeable the diminution of sunlight would be to you.

That's also an example of how skewed the human visual system really is. And it's an evolutionary plus, an advantage to the user. That's why things in nature happen that way.

The annular eclipse of 1994 that passed over central Illinois was, in Madison, more than a .9 magnitude eclipse (here's where I don't like the way astronomers use the term - it means something different here, it means diminution from full brightness). More than .9, not .7 as the eclipse of -0323 was in Athens. More than .9. And it didn't even stop traffic in Wisconsin, except for those who actually knew there was an eclipse taking place.

Madison is a lot closer to the center line of the 1994 eclipse than Athens was to the center line of the -0323 eclipse. A lot closer. Moral, you have to be very close to the center line. Not hundreds of miles away. In 1954 a total eclipse passed just north of Denmark (about the same as the -0323 eclipse) and then passed over Lithuania. This eclipse was observed in Austria - only by those who knew it was taking place. I know. I was there. Austria was a lot closer to the center line of this eclipse than Athens was to the eclipse of -0323. We had a .79 (not a .72, a .79) eclipse. Spectacular to people who write papers, yet nothing out of the ordinary was visible to the casual observer. Most of the people on Textkit have probably been in that position relative to a solar eclipse, yet wouldn't have noticed (even if they did) without being told about it. I would dearly love for that eclipse of -0323 to be the one Thoukydides was talking about, but I just can't vouch for it.

[pster]

Bob, if a .71 eclipse happened at a baseball game with 20,000 people in the stands, how many people would notice?

[pster]

I suppose what's misleading you is πρότερον, which is an adverb here (or something), and does not go with the other neuters. τὸ Μηδικόν [ἔργον] is subject and μέγιστον is predicative.

OK, that's what I figured, but I don't know what the verb would be. Can you give me a good translation of the verb as used here? And, and a translation of the correlated active version? I'm probably just being dense, but I couldn't come up with a suitable English translation that makes any sense and works both passively and actively. Seems like the translators have difficulty with it also and thus typically opt for the copula.

Thanks in advance.

[C. S. Bartholomew]

Very basic question. This is one of the reasons I find Attic so hard. 1.23.1:

τῶν δὲ πρότερον ἔργων μέγιστον ἐπράχθη τὸ Μηδικόν, καὶ τοῦτο ὅμως δυοῖν ναυμαχίαιν καὶ πεζομαχίαιν ταχεῖαν τὴν κρίσιν ἔσχεν.

What is the subject of ἐπράχθη? And what is the object? Is there an article missing? Is there a supressed "to be"? What steps do you follow in understanding the structure of this?

I see this has been answered at least twice. I am not certain that πρότερον is adverbial. It could be an adjective used with μέγιστον. There seem to be two clauses here, the passive verb ἐπράχθη PRASSW where the subject is the substantive μέγιστον limited by [πρότερον?] τῶν ἔργων. Either the substantive μέγιστον or the whole ἐπράχθη clause stands against τὸ Μηδικόν where the verb "to be" is not really suppressed, but unnecessary.

The procedure I follow is to isolate the main verb ἐπράχθη and then look for verb "arguments" μέγιστον, τῶν ἔργων, πρότερον. Assign each argument a semantic and a grammatical role, e.g., agent, patient, goal, instrument, subject, object, qualifier.

C. Stirling Bartholomew

[pster]

Thanks CSB, but can you translate the passive PRASSW here and the corresponding active PRASSW.

The Persian war was done greatest of previous (wars).

Is that how you translate it most literally?

[Paul Derouda]

I see this has been answered at least twice. I am not certain that πρότερον is adverbial. It could be an adjective used with μέγιστον. There seem to be two clauses here, the passive verb ἐπράχθη PRASSW where the subject is the substantive μέγιστον limited by [πρότερον?] τῶν ἔργων. Either the substantive μέγιστον or the whole ἐπράχθη clause stands against τὸ Μηδικόν where the verb "to be" is not really suppressed, but unnecessary.

The procedure I follow is to isolate the main verb ἐπράχθη and then look for verb "arguments" μέγιστον, τῶν ἔργων, πρότερον. Assign each argument a semantic and a grammatical role, e.g., agent, patient, goal, instrument, subject, object, qualifier.

C. Stirling Bartholomew

I don't know if adverbial was the right word for πρότερον. But don't think it's used with μέγιστον. Rather I think it its defines τῶν ἔργων, and I think it could be replaced by προτέρων without much changing the meaning. LSJ, section A. IV is what I have in mind. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... ek#lexicon

I translate: Of earlier wars the biggest [to happen] was the Medic.

[C. S. Bartholomew]

I see this has been answered at least twice. I am not certain that πρότερον is adverbial. It could be an adjective used with μέγιστον. There seem to be two clauses here, the passive verb ἐπράχθη PRASSW where the subject is the substantive μέγιστον limited by [πρότερον?] τῶν ἔργων. Either the substantive μέγιστον or the whole ἐπράχθη clause stands against τὸ Μηδικόν where the verb "to be" is not really suppressed, but unnecessary.

The procedure I follow is to isolate the main verb ἐπράχθη and then look for verb "arguments" μέγιστον, τῶν ἔργων, πρότερον. Assign each argument a semantic and a grammatical role, e.g., agent, patient, goal, instrument, subject, object, qualifier.

C. Stirling Bartholomew

I don't know if adverbial was the right word for πρότερον. But don't think it's used with μέγιστον.

I suspect you are right. It could limit the verb ἐπράχθη or the whole clause in either case it would function as an adverb. What I find intriguing about the syntax is the absence of a relative pronoun. The clause with ἐπράχθη is subordinate. Does anyone favor reading τῶν as a relative?

C. Stirling Bartholomew

[pster]

I just finished reading the pdf in the apothneskw thread about how passives are really pretty middle. Check it out. It inspired this reading. OK, we have:

τῶν δὲ πρότερον ἔργων μέγιστον ἐπράχθη τὸ Μηδικόν.

τὸ Μηδικόν = The Persian War = TPW
prattw = to make
πρότερον = (adv.) earlier
n.b. Middle Liddle:adv. often between Art. and Subst., e. g. ὁ πρότερον βασιλεύς
μέγιστον = (adj.) greatest
τῶν ἔργων = of events

So, with an active verb, we would have:

The Greeks and the Persians made TPW greatest of the earlier events.

The DJs and the dancers made the party raunchiest of the earlier parties.

Now, let's make it passive:

The party was made raunchiest of the earlier parties.

TPM was made greatest of the earlier events.

Note how PRATTW in the passive is almost like a copula. Perhaps this connects with its being able to take two accusatives in the active.

One of the morals of the pdf in the other thread is that each verb has its own quirks that you need to master, especially when it comes to the non-active forms.

[C. S. Bartholomew]

I just finished reading the pdf in the apothneskw thread about how passives are really pretty middle.

Keep in mind that there are plenty of true passives. All ambiguity, in regard to voice, is removed by an explicit agent in an oblique case or a prepositional phrase:

Thucid. 1.23.2.1 οὔτε γὰρ πόλεις τοσαίδε ληφθεῖσαι ἠρημώθησαν, αἱ μὲν ὑπὸ βαρβάρων, αἱ δ' ὑπὸ σφῶν αὐτῶν ἀντιπολεμούντων


C. Stirling Bartholomew

[Paul Derouda]

The beginning of 1.32 is utterly incomprehensible to me...

Δίκαιον, ὦ Ἀθηναῖοι, τοὺς μήτε εὐεργεσίας μεγάλης μήτε ξυμμαχίας προυφειλομένης ἥκοντας παρὰ τοὺς πέλας ἐπικουρίας, ὥσπερ καὶ ἡμεῖς νῦν, δεησομένους ἀναδιδάξαι πρῶτον, μάλιστα μὲν ὡς καὶ ξύμφορα δέονται, εἰ δὲ μή, ὅτι γε οὐκ ἐπιζήμια, ἔπειτα δὲ ὡς καὶ τὴν χάριν βέβαιον ἕξουσιν

1) why is προυφειλομένης in the genetive?
2) μάλιστα μὲν ὡς καὶ ξύμφορα δέονται: WHAT does this MEAN?

[pster]

The beginning of 1.32 is utterly incomprehensible to me...

Δίκαιον, ὦ Ἀθηναῖοι, τοὺς μήτε εὐεργεσίας μεγάλης μήτε ξυμμαχίας προυφειλομένης ἥκοντας παρὰ τοὺς πέλας ἐπικουρίας, ὥσπερ καὶ ἡμεῖς νῦν, δεησομένους ἀναδιδάξαι πρῶτον, μάλιστα μὲν ὡς καὶ ξύμφορα δέονται, εἰ δὲ μή, ὅτι γε οὐκ ἐπιζήμια, ἔπειτα δὲ ὡς καὶ τὴν χάριν βέβαιον ἕξουσιν

1) why is προυφειλομένης in the genetive?
2) μάλιστα μὲν ὡς καὶ ξύμφορα δέονται: WHAT does this MEAN?

1) I think it is in the genitive for the same reason that εὐεργεσίας is genitive: δεησομένους takes the genitive.

2) I think it means that most of all they want [something] expedient (ie useful for those receiving the request). Marchant says that ξύμφορα is an internal accusative, but I don't see how that can be the case since expedient seems to externalize the meaning quite a bit. But maybe I don't understand Th. or internal accusatives or both.

I hope I got at least one of them right.

[Paul Derouda]

Thanks.

1) is clear now. I just couldn't link προυφειλομένης with δεησομένους, too many interfering words... I somehow thought it wasn't on the "same level" as the other genitives (whatever the correct grammatical term is, I thought it governed the other genitives or vice versa).

2) is still hazy. I can accept that it means this, though . I was confusing σύμφορα with συμφορά, that was part of the problem. I must try to digest internal accusatives too...

[pster]

It's a tricky sentence. Hopefully some others will chirp in with their takes on it. I still don't see how it is internal.

[NateD26]

1) is clear now. I just couldn't link προυφειλομένης with δεησομένους, too many interfering words... I somehow thought it wasn't on the "same level" as the other genitives (whatever the correct grammatical term is, I thought it governed the other genitives or vice versa).

I'm still not convinced that they are linked. Indeed δεησομένους takes genitive but not these genitives;
the latter are part of the Subject of this acc.+inf. construction dependent on δικαιόν (ἐστι),
τοὺς ἥκοντας παρὰ τοὺς πέλας, those who have come to their neighbors, ἐπικουρίας δεησομένους,
asking for their aid, [ὥσπερ καὶ ἡμεῖς νῦν (δεόμεθα)], μήτε εὐεργεσίας μεγάλης μήτε ξυμμαχίας
προυφειλομένης,* [who are] without a great kindness or alliance meriting a long overdue payment,
it is fair that they first clearly show that...

* These are simple genitives with a participle modifying them (lit. who possess neither x nor y that is z),
all as part of the substantive participle serving as the subject in this construction.

[pster]

Thanks Nate. I would bet that you are correct. What I couldn't produce was the "[who are] without." It seems a bit of a cheat to get "without" from μήτε. Really, what needs to be supplied is "who are without." Do you have a Smyth number for that? I'm probably just dumb, but can you explain how you get that.

[Paul Derouda]

* These are simple genitives with a participle modifying them (lit. who possess neither x nor y that is z),
all as part of the substantive participle serving as the subject in this construction.

Probably you're right. But I have the same problem as pster in producing "[who are] without".

Should I interpret something like this?

μήτε εὐεργεσίας μεγάλης = "neither x"

μήτε ξυμμαχίας = "nor y"

προυφειλομένης = "[who possess] ... that is z"

[John W.]

As a newcomer to this forum, I hope you won't mind my commenting.

Surely what we have here is a simple genitive absolute construction, describing the circumstances in which the request is being made. 'Proupheilomenes' (apologies for not yet having sorted out how to type in Greek!) is passive, and means 'already being owed'; in other words, the Corcyraeans are making their request for aid without any existing debt for previous alliance or great service already being owed (i.e to them by the Athenians); in other words, they are venturing to make their request even though no such debt is owed to them.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,

John

[NateD26]

Probably you're right. But I have the same problem as pster in producing "[who are] without".

Should I interpret something like this?

μήτε εὐεργεσίας μεγάλης = "neither x"

μήτε ξυμμαχίας = "nor y"

προυφειλομένης = "[who possess] ... that is z"

Yes. I guess I was overly free in my translation:

• [who are] of neither great kindness nor alliance [that is] meriting a long overdue payment.

Perhaps the internal meaning of these genitives "who have shown (in the past) neither x nor y
that would [now] merit a payment". I've seen something of the sort in the older English translations.

[John W.]

* These are simple genitives with a participle modifying them (lit. who possess neither x nor y that is z),
all as part of the substantive participle serving as the subject in this construction.

Probably you're right. But I have the same problem as pster in producing "[who are] without".

Should I interpret something like this?

μήτε εὐεργεσίας μεγάλης = "neither x"

μήτε ξυμμαχίας = "nor y"

προυφειλομένης = "[who possess] ... that is z"

Though I'm new to the forum, I hope you won't mind my commenting.

As I understand it, προυφειλομένης is a passive participle in the genitive absolute construction, meaning '[with something] already being owed'. It is used to describe the circumstances of the Corcyraeans' request to the Athenians: they are making their request with no debt for alliance or great service already being owed, i.e, even though no such debt is owed to them by the Athenians. This use of the genitive absolute is common in Thucydides.

I hope this helps; I'd be happy to discuss further.

Best wishes,

John

[John W.]

I'm really pleased to see that others have embarked on reading Thucydides - reading (and re-reading) him in Greek has been one of my greatest pleasures in recent years.

On the basis of my own experience, I would advise those tackling Thucydides to get hold of (in hard copy or, where available, online) as many different commentaries on his work as possible. Thucydides is a notoriously difficult writer, and even today there is no consensus on the exact meaning, or the precise grammatical construction, of many passages. This makes it all the more important to consider a wide range of scholarly opinions, and on that basis to decide which interpretation one favours.

Of 'school' editions of individual books, the old Macmillan series (variously edited by Marchant, Graves and Tucker) is, as far as I am aware, the only one to cover all eight books. Generally superior to these is the series published (on the basis of Classen's edition) by Ginn and Co. of Boston in the late 19th/early 20th centuries, and edited by Morris, Smith and Fowler: unfortunately, this series covers only Books I, III, V, VI and VII. I see that at least one poster is already using Morris' edition of Book I.

Other commentaries on individual books which I have found helpful are Cameron's Thucydides Book I: A Students' Grammatical Commentary ((University of Michigan Press, 2003); Rusten's Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War, Book II (Cambridge University Press, 1989); Spratt's Thucydides Book IV (Cambridge University Press, 1912); and Goodhart's The Eighth Book of Thucydides' History (Macmillan, 1893).

Of complete commentaries, the English commentary most helpful in considering difficult passages is that by Gomme, Andrewes and Dover (Oxford). The Bude edition by de Romilly, Bodin and Weil (Greek text, with translation and notes in French) is also very useful. Among older editions with commentaries my personal favourite is the shorter version of Poppo's edition, revised by Stahl (normally referred to as 'Poppo-Stahl'), with notes in Latin. The edition by Classen, revised by Steup ('Classen-Steup'), with notes in German, is generally regarded as the best; Krueger's edition (again with German notes) is also worth consulting.

Moving away from commentaries, Betant's Lexicon Thucydideum (1843; repr. 1961) is a Greek-to-Latin dictionary of words found in Thucydides. While not complete (e.g. particles are omitted), it is very helpful if one wants to track down other instances of a word in Thucydides to help one decide how to translate it. Karl Maurer's Interpolation in Thucydides (E. J. Brill, 1995) includes illuminating discussions of some very difficult passages.

The secondary literature on Thucydides is of course huge, but I'd like to put in a special mention for W. Robert Connor's Thucydides (Princeton University Press, 1984), an enormously stimulating sequential 'reading' of Thucydides' history, which can be read with great profit in parallel with the text of Thucydides.

I hope all this is helpful; I'd be happy to provide any further information.

Best wishes,

John

[Paul Derouda]

As I understand it, προυφειλομένης is a passive participle in the genitive absolute construction, meaning '[with something] already being owed'. It is used to describe the circumstances of the Corcyraeans' request to the Athenians: they are making their request with no debt for alliance or great service already being owed, i.e, even though no such debt is owed to them by the Athenians. This use of the genitive absolute is common in Thucydides.

Welcome to the forum, John!

I think you finally found the correct name for the construction. And of course, we see genitive absolutes all the time...

[pster]

At 1.33.2, we get:

καὶ σκέψασθε: τίς εὐπραξία σπανιωτέρα ἢ τίς τοῖς πολεμίοις λυπηροτέρα, εἰ ἣν ὑμεῖς ἂν πρὸ πολλῶν χρημάτων καὶ χάριτος ἐτιμήσασθε δύναμιν ὑμῖν προσγενέσθαι, αὕτη πάρεστιν αὐτεπάγγελτος ἄνευ κινδύνων καὶ δαπάνης διδοῦσα ἑαυτήν, καὶ προσέτι φέρουσα ἐς μὲν τοὺς πολλοὺς ἀρετήν, οἷς δὲ ἐπαμυνεῖτε χάριν, ὑμῖν δ᾽ αὐτοῖς ἰσχύν

What kind of ἂν is this? I don't see a subjunctive around, and this seems to be doubly subordinate clause. So I'm confused.

Of course relatedly, what kind of εἰ is this?

Thanks in advance.

(For the record, I'm putting in 4hrs/day and I'm somwhere around here in the text! )

[NateD26]

After trying to figure out the Charles D. Morris' notes on this sentence,
my head is banging and I'm at a loss.

I envy you, pster and co., for tackling such a tricky book, with all those difficult
constructions (who'd thunk it that a gen. abs. would come inside another participle in
a different case altogether--see John W.'s post above).

[pster]

After trying to figure out the Charles D. Morris' notes on this sentence,
my head is banging and I'm at a loss.

I envy you, pster and co., for tackling such a tricky book, with all those difficult
constructions (who'd thunk it that a gen. abs. would come inside another participle in
a different case altogether--see John W.'s post above).

Yeah, the notes are more confusing than the text.

I wouldn't say I'm tackling the book; perhaps more accurate to say it is tackling me. But I am patient and have warned Mr. Thucydides that I will prevail even if it takes me longer to read the book than it took them to fight the war!!

As for the John W. sentence, I gave up on that one. I have an eight hour time limit for any one sentence.

Glad to see you are chiming in from time to time Nate. I knew you wouldn't be able to keep away. I suspect spiphany and Scribo will feel the pull soon.

[John W.]

As for the John W. sentence, I gave up on that one. I have an eight hour time limit for any one sentence.

Pster - sorry for the delay in commenting on that sentence. I did attempt to post a reply on it last Saturday, but it seems that, for some unknown reason, all my posts are being moderated, and that one never appeared, so I had to repost it during the week.

I can help with your query on I.33.2, and will do so today, if this post makes it onto the forum!

Best wishes,

John

[Paul Derouda]

At 1.33.2, we get:

καὶ σκέψασθε: τίς εὐπραξία σπανιωτέρα ἢ τίς τοῖς πολεμίοις λυπηροτέρα, εἰ ἣν ὑμεῖς ἂν πρὸ πολλῶν χρημάτων καὶ χάριτος ἐτιμήσασθε δύναμιν ὑμῖν προσγενέσθαι, αὕτη πάρεστιν αὐτεπάγγελτος ἄνευ κινδύνων καὶ δαπάνης διδοῦσα ἑαυτήν, καὶ προσέτι φέρουσα ἐς μὲν τοὺς πολλοὺς ἀρετήν, οἷς δὲ ἐπαμυνεῖτε χάριν, ὑμῖν δ᾽ αὐτοῖς ἰσχύν

What kind of ἂν is this? I don't see a subjunctive around, and this seems to be doubly subordinate clause. So I'm confused.

Of course relatedly, what kind of εἰ is this?

I think it's a past potential, H. W. Smyth's Grammar §1784 ff. And if I'm wrong about that, that's where you'll find a discussion of ἂν with indicative more generally.

[pster]

I think it's a past potential, H. W. Smyth's Grammar §1784 ff. And if I'm wrong about that, that's where you'll find a discussion of ἂν with indicative more generally.

2353b of Smyth seems key. Notice how he picks up on ei almost meaning "since" just as Morris does in his commentary. But I have to say, that is the only section I have come across where I think Smyth totally drops the ball. The repeated rephrasing and all the parentheticals are symptoms of an explanation that is failing. Furthermore, the use of "it is true that" and "it is the case that" are really hopeless. First of all, they are not in the Greek. Second of all, there is a whole theory of truth in semantics according to which saying "it is true that P" just is saying "P" --the disquotational theory of truth--and it is quite well motivated, so I have no idea how Smyth thinks that bringing in these phrases clears up anything. Can anybody unravel it for me?

[John W.]

Regarding I. 33. 2, Bigg's edition of Books I and II (Longmans, 1896) comments (translating Krueger):

'One might have expected λυπηροτέρα ἢ εἰ. But, as it would be quite correct to say, εἰ αὕτη (ἥ δύναμις) πάρεστιν αὐτεπάγγελτος, τίς εὐπραξία σπανιωτέρα; so ἢ is absent sometimes even when the comparative comes first'. A parallel from Euripides, Alcestis 879, is then quoted.

My own translation of I. 33. 2 runs:

'And consider: what good fortune could be rarer, or more grievous to your enemies, than if that very power, which you would have valued more than a great deal of money and gratitude to gain, is available of its own free will, offering itself without danger or expense, ...'


John

PS - on Saturday morning I submitted a lengthy post offering some suggestions for Thucydidean study aids, but due to the vagaries of the posting system it has only just appeared; if anyone is interested, it is to be found on page 3 of this thread. Fortunately (and with thanks to those concerned) I can now post in real time!

[pster]

PS - on Saturday morning I submitted a lengthy post offering some suggestions for Thucydidean study aids, but due to the vagaries of the posting system it has only just appeared; if anyone is interested, it is to be found on page 3 of this thread. Fortunately (and with thanks to those concerned) I can now post in real time!

Thanks John. Very instructive. I will request an increase in my budget for Thucydides!

[pster]

1.36.1

...γνώτω τὸ μὲν δεδιὸς αὐτοῦ ἰσχὺν ἔχον τοὺς ἐναντίους μᾶλλον φοβῆσον, τὸ δὲ θαρσοῦν μὴ δεξαμένου ἀσθενὲς ὂν πρὸς ἰσχύοντας τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ἀδεέστερον ἐσόμενον...

Morris writes:

τὸ δεδιός and τὸ θαρσοῦν: this use of neut. partics. and adjs. for abstract nouns (GMT. 108, 2, N. 4; H. 966 b; Kühn. 403 γ) is a favourite one with Thuc. It presents to the mind the abstract quality in operation, standing between e.g. τὸ δεδιέναι and ὅτι δέδιε. τὸ δεδιὸς αὐτοῦ: i.e. the fear which sees in himself no adequate strength. Opp. to this is τὸ θαρσοῦν μὴ δεξαμένου, i.e. the confidence that he has nothing to fear, which has led him to reject allies. The gen. δεξαμένου, like αὐτοῦ, properly depends on the partic., but has the effect of an abs. gen.—ἰσχὺν ἔχον: if it is backed by strength, i.e. if it leads him to secure the means of effective action.

-I don't understand what the ὂν is for; we have ἐσόμενον. How many copulas do we need?

-I don't understand Morris' comment, the bolded part. I thought αὐτοῦ was a genitive of possession. δεξαμένου doesn't seem to be a genitive of possession. So how exactly are they alike? And which partic. do they depend upon?

[John W.]

PS - on Saturday morning I submitted a lengthy post offering some suggestions for Thucydidean study aids, but due to the vagaries of the posting system it has only just appeared; if anyone is interested, it is to be found on page 3 of this thread. Fortunately (and with thanks to those concerned) I can now post in real time!

Thanks John. Very instructive. I will request an increase in my budget for Thucydides!

Many thanks, pster. The Macmillan and Ginn series, plus some of the older complete editions, can be found online, which should help to keep the cost down. Some of them certainly aren't cheap in the original editions!

Best wishes,

John

[John W.]

1.36.1

...γνώτω τὸ μὲν δεδιὸς αὐτοῦ ἰσχὺν ἔχον τοὺς ἐναντίους μᾶλλον φοβῆσον, τὸ δὲ θαρσοῦν μὴ δεξαμένου ἀσθενὲς ὂν πρὸς ἰσχύοντας τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ἀδεέστερον ἐσόμενον...

Morris writes:

τὸ δεδιός and τὸ θαρσοῦν: this use of neut. partics. and adjs. for abstract nouns (GMT. 108, 2, N. 4; H. 966 b; Kühn. 403 γ) is a favourite one with Thuc. It presents to the mind the abstract quality in operation, standing between e.g. τὸ δεδιέναι and ὅτι δέδιε. τὸ δεδιὸς αὐτοῦ: i.e. the fear which sees in himself no adequate strength. Opp. to this is τὸ θαρσοῦν μὴ δεξαμένου, i.e. the confidence that he has nothing to fear, which has led him to reject allies. The gen. δεξαμένου, like αὐτοῦ, properly depends on the partic., but has the effect of an abs. gen.—ἰσχὺν ἔχον: if it is backed by strength, i.e. if it leads him to secure the means of effective action.

-I don't understand what the ὂν is for; we have ἐσόμενον. How many copulas do we need?

-I don't understand Morris' comment, the bolded part. I thought αὐτοῦ was a genitive of possession. δεξαμένου doesn't seem to be a genitive of possession. So how exactly are they alike? And which partic. do they depend upon?

If my understanding is correct, ὂν gives the reason why his confidence will be less fearful, i.e. 'being [= because it is] based on weakness'. (ὂν parallels ἔχον in the previous clause, just as ἐσόμενον parallels φοβῆσον.) My translation runs:

'...let him understand that his fear, being based on a position of strength, will be more terrifying to his enemies, while the confidence he will gain if he does not accept us as allies, being founded on weakness, will be less fearful to his foes...' (emphasis added).

Regarding your second point, at first sight μὴ δεξαμένου looks like a genitive absolute, and in other circumstances it could well be one. In fact, however, it agrees with αὐτοῦ in the preceding clause, which is also understood here; thus the construction is τὸ δὲ θαρσοῦν [αὐτοῦ] μὴ δεξαμένου: 'his confidence, if he does not accept us ...'.

I hope this helps, but please let me know if any of this is unclear, or you think I've got it wrong!

Best wishes,

John

[pster]

Thanks. δεξαμένου agreeing with αὐτοῦ certainly seems to be the party line. But, but, it somehow seems strange to me. I wouldn't say it is wrong. But I wouldn't say it is right either. What is the reason for it? We get the genitive αὐτοῦ because of possession. But why does δεξαμένου have to follow it? After all, the first time the man referred to by αὐτοῦ is referred to, it is at the very outset where we use the dative ὅτῳ. So me wants to ask why isn't it just as reasonable to expect or even require δεξαμένῳ? We can sharpen it a bit and ask: what would happen if the clause τὸ μὲν δεδιὸς αὐτοῦ ἰσχὺν ἔχον τοὺς ἐναντίους μᾶλλον φοβῆσον were absent? Is there a Smyth number? Somehow I would rather just think of it as a genitive absolute. How do we know it is not a genitive absolute? Cameron in his commentary says that it is a lollapalooza of a sentence that merits close study, so that's what I'm trying to give it.

[John W.]

Thanks. δεξαμένου agreeing with αὐτοῦ certainly seems to be the party line. But, but, it somehow seems strange to me. I wouldn't say it is wrong. But I wouldn't say it is right either. What is the reason for it? We get the genitive αὐτοῦ because of possession. But why does δεξαμένου have to follow it? After all, the first time the man referred to by αὐτοῦ is referred to, it is at the very outset where we use the dative ὅτῳ. So me wants to ask why isn't it just as reasonable to expect or even require δεξαμένῳ? We can sharpen it a bit and ask: what would happen if the clause τὸ μὲν δεδιὸς αὐτοῦ ἰσχὺν ἔχον τοὺς ἐναντίους μᾶλλον φοβῆσον were absent? Is there a Smyth number? Somehow I would rather just think of it as a genitive absolute. How do we know it is not a genitive absolute? Cameron in his commentary says that it is sentence that merits close study, so that's what I'm trying to give it.

It's certainly a challenging sentence - I well remember grappling with it myself the first time I read Thucydides!

My view is influenced by the parallelisms between the two clauses, some of which I mentioned in my previous message. In the first clause you have τὸ μὲν δεδιὸς αὐτοῦ (his fear'); it seems to me likely that, in the second clause, this is answered by τὸ δὲ θαρσοῦν [αὐτοῦ] ('his confidence'), in which case δεξαμένου would most naturally agree with αὐτοῦ. One might well take a different view if, as you, say, we didn't have the preceding clause τὸ μὲν δεδιὸς αὐτοῦ ἰσχὺν ἔχον τοὺς ἐναντίους μᾶλλον φοβῆσον - but the fact is that we do, and that influences my assessment of the second clause, which is part of the same μὲν...δὲ construction.

That's just my (current) view, based on what seems to me to be the balance of probability - there are few certainties with Thucydides, and I've changed my mind quite a few times over the years regarding the construction of various passages. I may yet do so with this one!

Best wishes,

John

[Paul Derouda]

At 1.38.2 we have:

ἡμεῖς δὲ οὐδ᾽ αὐτοί φαμεν ἐπὶ τῷ ὑπὸ τούτων ὑβρίζεσθαι κατοικίσαι, ἀλλ᾽ ἐπὶ τῷ ἡγεμόνες τε εἶναι καὶ τὰ εἰκότα θαυμάζεσθαι

Can you explain why οὐδέ is in this position? I think this is some special use of of φημί but I can't recall it, can you help me?

[NateD26]

Can you explain why οὐδέ is in this position? I think this is some special use of of φημί but I can't recall it, can you help me?

I think you refer to οὔ φημι, to deny, refuse. See LSJ III & Smyth §§787, 2691, and 2692a.

[John W.]

At 1.38.2 we have:

ἡμεῖς δὲ οὐδ᾽ αὐτοί φαμεν ἐπὶ τῷ ὑπὸ τούτων ὑβρίζεσθαι κατοικίσαι, ἀλλ᾽ ἐπὶ τῷ ἡγεμόνες τε εἶναι καὶ τὰ εἰκότα θαυμάζεσθαι

Can you explain why οὐδέ is in this position? I think this is some special use of of φημί but I can't recall it, can you help me?

Hi, Paul. I agree with Nate that you probably have οὔ φημι in mind, but I don't think that is what we have here.

The Corinthians have just quoted the Corcyraeans as saying that they were not sent out as colonists to suffer wrong (λέγοντες ὡς οὐκ ἐπὶ τῷ κακῶς πάσχειν ἐκπεμφθεῖεν). The Corinthians' response is: 'We, however, say that neither did we ourselves send them out as colonists so that we would be insulted by them...' (ἡμεῖς δὲ οὐδ᾽ αὐτοί φαμεν ἐπὶ τῷ ὑπὸ τούτων ὑβρίζεσθαι κατοικίσαι...). Thus οὐδ᾽('neither') responds to οὐκ in the previous sentence, and does not here negate φαμεν, but in fact οὐδ᾽ αὐτοί goes with κατοικίσαι, and is positioned early in the sentence for emphasis.

At least, that's my take on it - what do you and others think?

Best wishes,

John