πρὸς as "as a response to"? (debowdlerising?) Longus 3.13.4

Here you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get help with a difficult passage of Greek, and more.
Post Reply
User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 690
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC

πρὸς as "as a response to"? (debowdlerising?) Longus 3.13.4

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:02 am

Longus 3.13.4 wrote:πρός τε τὰ φιλήματα ὤργα καὶ πρὸς τὰς περιβολὰς ἐσκιτάλιζε
Daphnis and Chloe (The 1896 Athenian Society Translation) on wikisource wrote:kissed Chloe fiercely, pressed her wantonly in his arms, and showed himself in every respect more curious and audacious.
Hyperlink to the Athenian society translation
Loeb (19xx) wrote:was carried ferociously to kissing and embracing
Hyperlink to the Loeb.

Although the entry for σκιταλίζω only proposes that this word probably belongs to the ἐσκυτ- family of words. Eg. σκυταλιον "little staff", "baton" (presumably wooden)

I realise that it goes beyond the bounds of the lexical aids and translation that I've looked at, but if πρὸς here can be taken as "as a response to", then I think the sense of these section is, "he began to bulge in response to the kissing and got a (wooden) "baton" in response to the cuddling".
Satyrs with glass beards should not throw parties.

User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
Posts: 2650
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: πρὸς as "as a response to"? (debowdlerising?) Longus 3.13.4

Post by jeidsath » Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:19 pm

3. κἂν γέροντας ὁρῶντας ἐξώρμησεν εἰς ἀφροδίτην τὰ τοιαῦτα θεάματα· οἱ δὲ νέοι καὶ σφριγῶντες καὶ πολὺν ἤδη χρόνον ἔρωτα ζητοῦντες ἐξεκάοντο πρὸς τὰ ἀκούσματα καὶ ἐτήκοντο πρὸς τὰ θεάματα καὶ ἐζήτουν καὶ αὐτοὶ περιττότερόν τι φιλήματος καὶ περιβολῆς, μάλιστα δὲ ὁ Δάφνις.

4. οἷα γοῦν ἐνηβήσας τῇ κατὰ τὸν χειμῶνα οἰκουρίᾳ καὶ εὐσχολίᾳ πρός τε τὰ φιλήματα ὤργα καὶ πρὸς τὰς περιβολὰς ἐσκιτάλιζε καὶ ἦν ἐς πᾶν ἔργον περιεργότερος καὶ θρασύτερος.
Starting with the preceding sentence "ἐξεκάοντο πρὸς τὰ ἀκούσματα καὶ ἐτήκοντο πρὸς τὰ θεάματα", I can see why you might think that he's repeated the construction. But look at what's in the middle:

ἐζήτουν...φιλήματος καὶ περιβολῆς, μάλιστα δὲ ὁ Δάφνις.

The φιλήματα and περιβολὰς are still being sought in the ὤργα and ἐσκιτάλιζε sentence. So πρὸς in this sentence seems to indicate a future orientation.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.

User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 690
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC

Re: πρὸς as "as a response to"? (debowdlerising?) Longus 3.13.4

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:25 pm

Your response is a little disjointed with the second step after the third. You seem to have them seeking (ἐζήτουν καὶ αὐτοὶ "they also sought to"), when they've already found (ἦν ἐς πᾶν ἔργον "for everything he was carrying out or completing").

Let me arrange it in the text order:
οἱ δὲ νέοι καὶ σφριγῶντες καὶ πολὺν ἤδη χρόνον ἔρωτα ζητοῦντες
Daphnis and Chloe were full of youthful exuberance and had been after love for a long time already.
ἐξεκάοντο πρὸς τὰ ἀκούσματα καὶ ἐτήκοντο πρὸς τὰ θεάματα
They were ignited on account of the noises (of animals mating) and melted at the sights (of the same). [I'm assuming that they were not ignited to go "towards" the sheep to get involved in the action they could see that gave rise to the noises].
καὶ ἐζήτουν καὶ αὐτοὶ περιττότερόν τι φιλήματος καὶ περιβολῆς, μάλιστα δὲ ὁ Δάφνις.
They themselves sought all the more for kissing and cuddling, especially Daphnis, (or sought for something more than just kissing and cuddling).
οἷα γοῦν ἐνηβήσας τῇ κατὰ τὸν χειμῶνα οἰκουρίᾳ καὶ εὐσχολίᾳ
as one who had reached pubescence during the winterlong confinement and idleness.
πρός τε τὰ φιλήματα ὤργα καὶ πρὸς τὰς περιβολὰς ἐσκιτάλιζε καὶ ἦν ἐς πᾶν ἔργον περιεργότερος καὶ θρασύτερος.
He was bulging when he got to first base, he had a cudgel at second, and was carrying on with both boldness and without regard for what of another's business he ought not know in everything he was doing (getting done).
Satyrs with glass beards should not throw parties.

User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
Posts: 2650
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: πρὸς as "as a response to"? (debowdlerising?) Longus 3.13.4

Post by jeidsath » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:46 pm

You might be right, as I look more at the context, it’s the two of them, not a general statement about young people, which I thought at first.

For προς as “in consequence of” see LSJ C.III.2.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.

User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 690
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC

Re: πρὸς as "as a response to"? (debowdlerising?) Longus 3.13.4

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:42 am

jeidsath wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:46 pm
For προς as “in consequence of” see LSJ C.III.2.
One of the pitfalls in using a dictionary such as LSJ for prepositions stems from the different idioms (character, habitual usage) of the the two languages. Greek more commonly uses prepositions to convey real meaning, while English tends to confine itself to using prepositions to designate the relationship between sentence elements. To put that in another way, in the case of English its prepostions are more grammatical, while for Greek its prepositions are more (lexico-)semantic. Of course on a scale of vagueness to specificity, where a low value indicates vagueness, the semantic specificity value of a preposition within its phrase in Greek rates low.

The two dictionaries I commonly work with - LSJ and BDAG - are not very helpful in this regard, seeing as they gloss Greek prepositions with English prepositions. Due, however, to the difference in usage patterns and proportions of prepositions between the languages, always rendering a preposition by a preposition creates unidiomatic English.

I have entitled this thread and posed my question within the conventions of the currently assumed and promoted equivalency in usage of parts of speech assumptions just to make it "understandable", but actually I would prefer to go further into the interaction of the two idioms that happens in translation, but then I'd be losing the I've-no-idea-what-you're-talking-about people. Transforming the idiom for πρὸς in ἐξεκάοντο πρὸς τὰ ἀκούσματα for example, we could say that in English the rather complex meaning expressed by the Greek preposition would prehaps more naturally (idiomatically) be expressed by a verb or verbal phrase - I suggest it coukd be, "when they heard".

As I've alluded to in other threads, to help me think about the verbal value of prepositions, I use a scale of three values, prepositions with specific verbs (where the preposition acts upon or modifies the meaning of simple verb), preposition with what I call carrier verbs (perhaps a name more understandable to others might be grammaticising verbs - verbs which are there because of the grammatical needs of the Greek language) and finally zero verbs (just prepositions in Greek, which would probably be rendered as verbs in English by explicating what is understood from the context in the Greek). Rendering ἐξεκάοντο πρὸς τὰ ἀκούσματα as, "when they heard", for example, takes the understood verb of hearing and spells it out.

Lexicon entries based on the equivalent usage of parts of speech assumption tend to be torturously long, often with complex prepositions in place of simple Greek ones. Glossing prepositions verbally for the sake of a bilingual dictionary might look like, πρὸς (with a noun of what is heard) "hearing".

To summarise all that, in this regard, English tends to explicitly state what Greek implies.
Satyrs with glass beards should not throw parties.

Post Reply