Locī Immūtātī #8

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tbearzhang
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Locī Immūtātī #8

Post by tbearzhang » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:13 am

Hi, I haven't posted here in a while. Been pretty busy in the past few months. I try to spend a few nights per week to work on the Locī Immūtātī, but progress has been slow (just plowed through two excerpts from Cicero's In Catilīnam Ōrātiō, and boy does he have a lot to write about our friend Catilīna...)

I had a question about a particular sentence from article #8:


Original sentence:

Et ille, "Tu vero . . . sic habeto non esse te mortalem, sed corpus hoc; nec enim tuis es quem forma ista declarat, sed mens cuiusque is est quisque, non ea figura quae digito demonstrari potest. ..."

My translation:

And that (man) (said), "You indeed ... you shall thus consider (that) you are not mortal, but this body (is mortal); and you are not to your (friends) whom that form declares, but (the) mind of each (person) he is each (person), not the form/body which is able to be demonstrated by (a) finger.

Questions:

1. What is the correct translation of "is" in the sentence above?

I translated it as a pronoun referring to "mēns cuisque" but I find this problematic as "mēns" is feminine, while "is" is masculine...

2. Why is the demonstrative "ista" used to describe "fōrma"?

"Ista" usually is associated with a negative connotation, is this because it is referring to the body which is considered ephemeral?

3. What does "quae digitō dēmōnstrārī potest" mean?

I know what it means literally, but what do you mean by "be able to be demonstrated with a finger"?


Thanks in advance!
Last edited by tbearzhang on Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Victor
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Re: Locī Immūtātī #8

Post by Victor » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:41 pm

There are a couple of errors I can see in your reading and/or transcription of the passage: "tuis" and "cuisque". Clearly cuisque should be cuique but have you realised yet what tuis should be? Understanding the latter correctly may help you to make much better sense of the passage.

ista doesn't always have negative connotations, by any means. Here it just means "your" effectively.
tbearzhang wrote: 3. What does "quae digitō dēmōnstrārī potest" mean?

I know what it means literally, but what do you mean by "be able to be demonstrated with a finger"?
That the forma is visibly existent, essentially, unlike the mens.

For future reference, it would be helpful if you didn't include macrons when writing Latin in your questions; they make any Internet search for the original passage more time consuming.

tbearzhang
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Re: Locī Immūtātī #8

Post by tbearzhang » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:46 pm

Victor wrote:There are a couple of errors I can see in your reading and/or transcription of the passage: "tuis" and "cuisque". Clearly cuisque should be cuique but have you realised yet what tuis should be? Understanding the latter correctly may help you to make much better sense of the passage.
Yeah, I was also not quite sure what "tuis" meant, but to translate it as "to your (friends)" was what was supplied in a footnote in the textbook (footnote #56 says that "tuis" is a DAT. depending on the verb "declarat"), so I just went with it...

I double checked, "mens cuisque is" should actually be "mens cuiusque is", I misspelled it in the original post. Does that change anything?
Victor wrote:For future reference, it would be helpful if you didn't include macrons when writing Latin in your questions; they make any Internet search for the original passage more time consuming.
Will do.

Thanks!
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tbearzhang
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Re: Locī Immūtātī #8

Post by tbearzhang » Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:19 pm

So I looked up the original text on the Latin Library:

Et ille: 'Tu vero ... sic habeto, non esse te mortalem, sed corpus hoc; nec enim tu is es, quem forma ista declarat, sed mens cuiusque is est quisque, non ea figura, quae digito demonstrari potest. ...'

Compared to the textbook, "tuis" becomes "tu is".
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Victor
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Re: Locī Immūtātī #8

Post by Victor » Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:33 pm

tbearzhang wrote: I double checked, "mens cuisque is" should actually be "mens cuiusque is", I misspelled it in the original post. Does that change anything?
Ah, right. Cuiusque it is then. It makes better sense than cuique, and you translated it correctly in any case.

tbearzhang
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Re: Locī Immūtātī #8

Post by tbearzhang » Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:09 am

But I am not clear on the grammatical structure of the sentence. As I understand it, "mens cuiusque" and "is" are both subjects of the verb "est"? But why are we using the masculine form "is" instead of "ea", since "mens" is feminine?
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Victor
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Re: Locī Immūtātī #8

Post by Victor » Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:14 pm

tbearzhang wrote:But I am not clear on the grammatical structure of the sentence. As I understand it, "mens cuiusque" and "is" are both subjects of the verb "est"? But why are we using the masculine form "is" instead of "ea", since "mens" is feminine?
It's an abrupt transition, admittedly, but all that's happening is that the gender of is is anticipating the gender of quisque.

tbearzhang
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Re: Locī Immūtātī #8

Post by tbearzhang » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:22 pm

I see. Many thanks!
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