Locī Immūtātī #1

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tbearzhang
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Locī Immūtātī #1

Post by tbearzhang » Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:23 am

Lines 3-7, a very long sentence...

Original text:

3. Cornēlī, tibi, namque tū solēbās
4. meās esse aliquid putāre nūgās,
5. iam tum cum ausus es ūnus Ītalōrum
6. omne aevum tribus explicāre chartīs,
7. doctīs--Iuppiter!--et labōriōsīs.

Questions:

1. How is "ūnus" in line 5 translated? (I think it is an adjective describing the subject (Cornelius) but how does it work in English? Also, Latin uses the perfect passive participle + the verb "sum" to express the perfect passive tense, but is the "sum" verb also "shared" by other adjectives?)

2. Should "cum" in line 5 be translated as "when" or "with"?

3. How should the adjectives "doctīs" and "labōriōsīs" be translated? (What are they modifying? Surely not "chartīs"?)

My current translation of the sentence:

Cornelius, to you, for indeed you were accustomed to think (that) my trifles were something, now then you are (the) one (who) dared to explain all (the) time of the Italians with three volumes, learned --God!-- and laborious.


Thanks in advance for the help!
行勝於言
FACTA NON VERBA

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seneca2008
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Re: Locī Immūtātī #1

Post by seneca2008 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:50 am

Now edited as follows ausus es ūnus Ītalōrum is taken together. So maybe "you alone have dared(were the first who dared) amongst the Italians". Unus may have to be translated as an english adverb. I dont quite follow what you say about sum plus adjectives but I dont think what you say is right.

cum is when, but you also need to think about how iam tum works together See here. Only this very moment?

omne aevum "all of time" so Cornelius has just published a history of all time in 3 volumes. "doctīs" and "labōriōsīs" do refer to Chartis. Catullus is saying they are learned (maybe also refined) but on the other hand Cornelius has made heavy weather of his task. The fact that Cornelius has managed to write a whole history of the world in 3 Vols is a bit of a joke as this would have been a short work for such a study.

explicare is more set out expound than explain.

Catullus describes his own work as rubbish (nugae) although highly polished (in the lines you dont quote) but Cornelius's is learned (perhaps too learned or academic? a bit Greek?) and a bit too earnest. Its hard to translate because the juxtaposition of the words gives a fluidity to the meaning which is difficult to capture in translation. So these lines say one thing but mean another.
Last edited by seneca2008 on Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tbearzhang
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Re: Locī Immūtātī #1

Post by tbearzhang » Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:12 pm

seneca2008 wrote:es ūnus Ītalōrum is taken together. So maybe "you are (the one) alone (the first) amongst the Italians". Unus may have to be translated as an english adverb. I dont quite follow what you say about sum plus adjectives but I dont think what you say is right.
For example, in line 5, is "ausus es" taken together to denote the perfect passive of audēre (this verb is semi-deponent and thus has active meaning), or is "ausus" and "ūnus" treated as two separate adjectives, linked to the subject by the verb "es"?

I'm a little bit confused about the usage of the perfect passive participle as the perfect passive form of the parent verb, or as an adjective alone. In the textbook, it states that the perfect passive form of the verb is formed by the participle + "sum", with the verb "sum" indicating the person, number, and tense. Does that mean that the participle + "sum" construct forms a "verb unit", or does it simply mean that the participle functions as a sort of predicate adjective?

I hope I explained my question better...
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seneca2008
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Re: Locī Immūtātī #1

Post by seneca2008 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:02 pm

Sorry I rushed in too quickly and was not as accurate or helpful as I could have been.

Ausus Es is perfect active of audeo. As you observe it's a semi deponent verb with a perfect which is passive in form but active in meaning. Unus agrees with Ausus es and is perhaps best translated in English as an adverb.
I'm a little bit confused about the usage of the perfect passive participle as the perfect passive form of the parent verb, or as an adjective alone. In the textbook, it states that the perfect passive form of the verb is formed by the participle + "sum", with the verb "sum" indicating the person, number, and tense. Does that mean that the participle + "sum" construct forms a "verb unit", or does it simply mean that the participle functions as a sort of predicate adjective?
I would think of it as a verb unit.

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Re: Locī Immūtātī #1

Post by mwh » Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:30 pm

iam tum cum is literally “already then when” and I don’t see why it shouldn’t be translated that way.

ausus es unus Italorum: alone of Italians (Italorum partitive genitive) you dared ….

doctis and laboriosis both purport to be complimentary, but probably have an ironic edge to them. Catullus is joshing his dedicatee a little, as seneca says. Ausus es itself is two-edged, since audacia can be a good or a bad thing.

A charta is properly a sheet of papyrus, the ordinary writing material of the time, but here refers to a whole scroll.

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