Counting syllables in the NT text

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C. S. Bartholomew
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Counting syllables in the NT text

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:31 pm

brainout wrote: At issue is counting syllables in the NT text, and whether elision or crasis (krasis) affects the syllable counts.
What is the purpose of counting syllables in the NT text? Bauckham talks about it.
The Testimony of the Beloved Disciple: Narrative, History, and ...
Richard Bauckham 2007, p. 276, The Numerical Shape of the Beginning and Ending of John.
I have read a lot of Richard Bauckham. Sometimes he goes places where I don't follow.
See also Numerical Literary Techniques in John: The Fourth Evangelist's Use ...
M. J. J. Menken, 1985, pp 21ff.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

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brainout
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Re: Counting syllables in the NT text

Post by brainout » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:38 am

Well, I'm not using him or anyone. Rather, I stumbled on Bible meter by mistake when trying to see if there were any missing words, versus the Moeller Great Isaiah scroll, about 10 years ago. My pastor always taught us Bible in Hebrew and Greek from the mss so I'm not a formally-educated student. But it's easy to read now after 40 years' study, esp. using Bibleworks. So, that's what I've been doing.

'Meter' is not what has been argued by Robert Lowth and those since. This is a unique rhetorical style in Bible which perhaps purists would not call 'meter' but I do, lacking any better term. So instead, I've just been documenting it, as a forensic practice which is yielding surprising results. Research has been ongoing for 8 years; has impact on hermeneutics, textual criticism and will impact many theologies.

Put simply, syllable counts were what people used to memorize the text. So Bible writers all employ a sophisticated accounting meter in sevens which is used for datelining the text, for cross-referencing to other Bible passages, for elucidating the doctrinal meaning of the text, and in many ways most importantly.. as a prophetic (or retrospective) TIMELINE of events.

Master list of characteristics for spotting/testing these characteristics in any passage of Scripture is (google the name), BibleHebMeterCharacs (add 'htm' or 'pdf' depending on what you want to use; no foreign characters are in the text).

You'll hear Jews today, for example, say (quoting Sanhedrin 97-99 in Talmud) that goyim have 2000 years, Jews 2000 years, then Messiah comes, and he has his own 2000.

Well, it's really 2100 in the Bible. And 4103, Messiah Born. Isaiah 53 'maps' it, displaying all the aforementioned uses of meter, and was my first 'find' (google Isa53Map.pdf or jpg to see a chapter meter display sans explanation, or the isaiah53 channel in vimeo). It's an annual retrospective and prophetical timeline from 1st David's Birth to last David's death which 'tags' Psalm 90 (which you can tell if you know the latter's meter as well). Daniel 9 then 'tags' selected meters in Isaiah 53, to elaborate on both retrospective and prophetical timeline, given the 'new' information about the Man of Time in Daniel 2 and 7.

My vimeo howgodorchestratestime channel (paste that italic text as shown in google to get link) therefore shows this structure, to explain the underlying doctrine (which is also precedence for why the Rapture is imminent, Time is a Loan since Adam). Within that channel's videos are downloads, including a worksheet I created from Adam through I think 3200 AD, using the subunits the Bible discloses in both text and meter (490+70+490=1050x2=2100).

This is all rather prosaic, but unknown. So might sound odd. Skepticism is always good, but frankly the information ends up corroborating most of what scholars claim anyway. So it's nice to be able to see a consistent rhetorical style answering long questions nearly the same as the answers we suspected. But the big news is the WIT of it all. Gorgeous to see how well-ordered is this Word.

BTW, Hagee is completely off. The above stuff is directly vettable IN BIBLE (i.e., from Genesis 5 begats onward) and in its meter. Really interesting how Moses' meaning in Gen1, for example, is a retrospective exposition, since per the meter he's writing at the beginning of the 1051st anniversary of Noah's FLOOD, when Moses was 119 years old. So the water metaphor is driving the narrative, and is not at all about when the world began (yikes, think of all the millions of dollars wasted debating an issue Bible never covers).

So Bible, just like Talmud, said He was supposed to live 40 years; but of course He dies 7 years early, so like Jacob in Gen 49, Christ gives his Dying Blessing Prophetical timeline (to 3250 AD).. which I'm currently working on with the guy who discovered it, Anonynomenon in frankforum, who discovered it as a result of seeing my videos and webpages. We're talking there (it's my forum, a free service I get with my domain from godaddy), since I am not allowed to post in B-Greek without revealing my real name (I'm a nobody, but my family would be exposed, so must remain anonymous). I didn't know about this forum, then. Found it a few days ago and joined. :oops:

For extensive demonstration of what all this means and how important it can be, I'd ask you to look up my name in vimeo. I've done hundreds of live Bible videos on this. Syllabus is LukeDateLineMeters.pdf which link you'll get if you paste that name in Google.

None of the material is copyrighted, nor is any attribution needed. Purpose is just to show what I found, cuz it's the Word of God and it's kinda important, whether 'my' answers to explain the meter are right or wrong. I'm old, so I don't know if and when I'll die, and it seems unfair to let this find go untold. What others might be doing with it on their own, I don't know.

At issue is whether the elisions and dipthongs are properly counted, as well as whether we should use crasis for oral syllable counts. Everything is in draft. You can get that by googling on Matt24-25ParsedR5.pdf for the latest (5th) draft. There's a counting error I made in Matt 25:30's last clause versus 24:51's last clause (gnashing anaphora), hence my initial post to you. I'm trying to decide whether it ought to be 14 or (more likely) 15 syllables.

If you decide you'd like to opine on that issue or any other, I'd be forever grateful. Nice to be able to say 'forever' and know it's real... :mrgreen:

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Re: Counting syllables in the NT text

Post by brainout » Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:06 pm

It should be okay to post links now. The link to the discussion we've been having on the Matthew24-25 syllable counts since January (before I found this forum), is here. There are associated videos on both it and the Luke 21 parallel passage, since Luke is COUNTING Matt24 syllables to make his text, in that thread. I'm uploading episodes to it weekly. The Luke 21 thread is here.
  • The importance of Luke using syllable counts should be immediately apparent: a) means Matthew is first gospel, and b) means the NT writers used syllable counts surgically to help their readers, who obviously also used them. This should be a major issue in hermeneutics and textual criticism. I didn't have this proof until Anonynomenon, who found the Matt24-25 meter, presented it. We're still testing it, and likely will be for some years.

    Peter matches syllables to Paul (linked below), but my finding that alone was but one 'witness'. Forensically vettable, but still to have Anonynomenon find it also, means anyone else can do the same. Need more hands on this idea, for it has the potential of revolutionizing hermeneutics and textual criticism, not to mention fending off all those who claim Bible is a fairy tale. :roll:
The link to the latest revision of Matthew 24-25 (which by the counts, appears to be one chapter in Greek), is here. If you have Bibleworks 9 fonts, you can replace the 'pdf' with 'doc' to get an editable version.

We devised a meter checker to determine INTENT (rather than coincidence) for the amen legw humin anaphora which spans both chapters, and its latest version is here.

None of the material is copyrighted, and needs no attribution. You should be able to apply the same principles to any section of Scripture, whether OT Hebrew or NT Greek. I've been doing that for 8 years, and have done the first chapter for all NT books.

Had I known of this forum I'd have put that material here, but then again I didn't discover this Matthew24-25 meter. I did the others, and the master list of them, along with the principles found in the Meter from Genesis through Revelation, is here. Again, you can replace with 'htm' or 'doc' if you have Bibleworks 5 fonts. You can download them free at http://www.bibleworks.com/fonts.html .

A short summary of the principles, is here. You can apply them to any Scripture text, but if you do any of the above analysis first, it will be easier to spot the meter in whatever passage you later choose (i.e., Rev17, Gen49, probably any prophetic passage, but we've not done those meters yet).

Someone reading that material used the principles in it to derive the Matthew metering. He calls himself Anonynomenon.

At issue still is whether we count the gnashing clauses in Matt 24:51 and 25:30 (same clause) as 14 or 15 syllables. So again if anyone wishes to opine, I'd be grateful. This 'find' is too big for two hobbyists, Anonynomenon and I; I'm old so didn't want to let this 'find' go silent. Hope you understand. It has the potential of helping textual criticism and hermeneutics.

For an example of the latter, watch one or more of these videos on Jude (sorry for my bad Greek pronunciation), where one word added from another oft-neglected ms unlocks a CADENCE. Greek being a musical language, I find it hard to believe that such a cadence only exists in that letter, especially since it looks like Peter made a marching song to 'play' antiphonally upon Paul's Ephesians 1:3-14 text (Peter videos are boring, but the song hypothesis begins here).

(Vimeo doesn't display the channel version of the video as clearly as if the video pops out on its own. In the lower right of the video description is a hashtag with the video's own unique ID, which upon clicking pops out to a new tab/window, and is easier to read. In all events, Bibleworks' 'BGT' text is used, including its CNTTS apparatus where variants were significant.)

I'm not a scholar. I am a lifelong student under a pastor who taught from the mss. I own a business unrelated to any of this, and do this in my free time. So again, no copyright or attribution is needed. If YOU find something valuable, it's YOURS to work with as YOU see fit.

God is too gorgeous to let anything in His Word go unsaid, that's my only motive for posting this here. If you think it inappropriate, please feel free to delete it, let me know, and I won't post about this topic again. Thank you for your time!

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