Upside Down Grammar

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Isaac Newton
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Upside Down Grammar

Post by Isaac Newton » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:09 pm

Over the years, I've been witness to some terrible grammar at Textkit, B-Greek and Carm. from those claiming to "know" something about Greek grammar, and specifically about biblical Greek grammar. Not a few of these charlatans even call themselves "instructors," "scholars," "teachers" "experts" etc. of the Koine. In this thread, I'm going to be compiling some of the silly grammatical claims which these people have gone on record to make. So without further ado, let's get on with it.

Notice what this poster insisted (and still insists!) concerning τὰ ἔθνη in Acts 13:48 :
Hardly. It is synesis that would make it take a plural verb, not the other way around.
http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.p ... ost7784966


More to come..
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

Isaac Newton
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Re: Upside Down Grammar

Post by Isaac Newton » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:10 pm

It is often asserted by Trinitarians that in Matthew 28:19 there is evidence of a "Tri-Personal" "God -Being" because ὄνομα is singular . But think through this , though; had the apostle used the plural ὀνόματά here instead of the singular ὄνομα, it would imply more than one name of each of Father, son and holy spirit, so that we would have to understand the sentence (and translate it into English) as follows -- "in the names of the Father, and [in the names] of the son, and in [the names] of the holy spirit." They seem also to have lost sight of the proper interpretation of the simple prepositional phrase.

For example at John 18:3 we have the following:
ὁ οὖν Ἰούδας λαβὼν τὴν σπεῖραν καὶ ἐκ τῶν ἀρχιερέων καὶ ἐκ τῶν Φαρισαίων ὑπηρέτας ἔρχεται ἐκεῖ μετὰ φανῶν καὶ λαμπάδων καὶ ὅπλων.
Bold above is just a shortened version of "..went there with lanterns and [with] torches and [with] weapons." We don't have to keep repeating the preposition. The same is going on at Matthew 28:19:
πορευθέντες οὖν μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος,
Last edited by Isaac Newton on Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

Isaac Newton
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Re: Upside Down Grammar

Post by Isaac Newton » Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:10 pm

Another example of bad Greek is in the insistence of some Trinitarians that the antecedent of αὐτὸν in John 1:10 is not τὸ φῶς in verse 9 but is rather ὁ λόγος in verse 1, or else is Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ in verse 17.

On an unrelated note, I don't understand why this thread has been moved from the language forum (where I originally founded it) to over here. Be that as it may, I know truth seekers everywhere will no doubt be drawn to this thread and learn from it . Happy is the one who finds something good which is hidden .
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

Isaac Newton
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Re: Upside Down Grammar

Post by Isaac Newton » Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:49 pm

Another example of bad grammar I've seen on trinitarian forums is in the claim that both Θεοῦ and δούλου in Phil. 2:6-8 are epexegetical genitives, both with the head noun μορφὴν to boot !
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

Isaac Newton
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Re: Upside Down Grammar

Post by Isaac Newton » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:28 am

Another really silly "grammatical" argument made by triniarians is at Rev. 22:3. Apparently, the singular form of the pronoun (αὐτῷ) here refers to two people/individuals (!) :
καὶ πᾶν κατάθεμα οὐκ ἔσται ἔτι. καὶ ὁ θρόνος τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ τοῦ Ἀρνίου ἐν αὐτῇ ἔσται, καὶ οἱ δοῦλοι αὐτοῦ λατρεύσουσιν αὐτῷ,
The fact that this is an ungrammatical argument doesn't seem to stop them. Look here for instance:
http://www.forananswer.org/Rev/Rv22_3.htm

Thus, it is not impossible that John might use an ungrammatical singular reference (either pronoun or verb form) for both God and Christ, to signify the unity of the Two. When we see the many other ways the Two are unified (in their reign, in the praise they receive, and in the future devotion of the saints, for whom they will be Temple and Light), a grammatical 'signal' seems at least possible.
---
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

Isaac Newton
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Re: Upside Down Grammar

Post by Isaac Newton » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:55 pm

A bad grammatical argument often made by a majority of Trinitarians is that ἐγὼ εἰμί at John 8:58 is a proper name, specifically that it is the name of God.
εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.
Here's Matthew Henry:
Before Abraham was, I AM. This speaks Abraham a creature, and our Lord the Creator; well, therefore, might he make himself greater than Abraham. I AM, is the name of God, Ex 3:14; it speaks his self-existence; he is the First and the Last, ever the same, Re 1:8. Thus he was not only before Abraham, but before all worlds, Pr 8:23; Joh 1:1.
But think through this though. If ἐγὼ εἰμί is a name, then there is no subject or main verb to go with πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι (i.e. 'before Abraham came to be' ). Even Wallace, who should really know better, completely loses it here. Net bible:

161sn I am! is an explicit claim to deity. Although each occurrence of the phrase “I am” in the Fourth Gospel needs to be examined individually in context to see if an association with Exod 3:14 is present, it seems clear that this is the case here (as the response of the Jewish authorities in the following verse shows).
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

Isaac Newton
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Re: Upside Down Grammar

Post by Isaac Newton » Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:32 pm

Another weird grammatical claim often made by Trinitarians is that θεὸς in John 1:1c is a "purely qualitative noun to the exclusion of a definite or indefinite sense." See here:

http://www.forananswer.org/Top_JW/Theos_CountNoun.htm
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

Isaac Newton
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Re: Upside Down Grammar

Post by Isaac Newton » Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:05 am

A rather twisted one (proffered by not a few trinitarian "grammarians" of repute) is that τὸ Πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας is the antecedent (postcedent if you want to be really picky) of ἐκεῖνος in the following:
ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας, ὁδηγήσει ὑμᾶς εἰς τὴν ἀλήθειαν πᾶσαν, οὐ γὰρ λαλήσει ἀφ' ἑαυτοῦ, ἀλλ' ὅσα ἀκούει λαλήσει, καὶ τὰ ἐρχόμενα ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν.
:lol:
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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