αἱ δάπιδες ἃς ἡ τηθίς ἐπρίατο

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jeidsath
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αἱ δάπιδες ἃς ἡ τηθίς ἐπρίατο

Post by jeidsath » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:32 am

εἰδυῖα ἐν γαστρὶ φέρουσαν τὴν γυναῖκά μου ἡ τηθὶς σήμερον ἐπρίατο δάπιδας πολυτελεῖς. ἐπιστολὴν δὲ ἐχθὲς ἐγράψατο περὶ ταύτης τῆς βουλῆς. καὶ δὴ ἀναγιγνώσκουσα ταύτην ἔφη με ἡ γυνὴ οὐ μέλλειν τὴν τηθίδα σου ταύτας τὰς πολυτελεῖς δάπιδας ὠνήσεσθαι. ἐγὼ μὲν ταῦτα γράφοντα ἐν ἐπιστολῇ πέμπει αὐτὴν τῇ τηθίδι λεγόντων οὐκ ἀνάγκην εἶναι τῶν δαπίδων ἡμᾶς. ἡ δὲ τηθὶς πέμπει εἰποῦσα ὅτι τὸ παίδιον μέλλει ἀνάγκην ἐπὶ τῇ γῇ τῶν δωμάτων δάπιδας ἔχειν. καὶ ἐπρίατο σήμερον δάπιδας πολυτελεῖς. ἡ δὲ γυνὴ ἐκείνῃ ἔφη τὰς δάπιδάς σοι μέλλειν εἶναι καί σε ἐπὶ τῇ γῇ τῶν δωμάτων ἔξειν αὐτὰς. νῦν γε ἡ γυνὴ καὶ ἡ τηθὶς ὀργὰς τούτων ἔχουσί μοι.
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Re: αἱ δάπιδες ἃς ἡ τηθίς ἐπρίατο

Post by bedwere » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:50 pm

jeidsath wrote:εἰδυῖα ἐν γαστρὶ φέρουσαν τὴν γυναῖκά μου ἡ τηθὶς σήμερον ἐπρίατο δάπιδας πολυτελεῖς. ἐπιστολὴν δὲ ἐχθὲς ἐγράψατο περὶ ταύτης τῆς βουλῆς. καὶ δὴ ἀναγιγνώσκουσα ταύτην ἔφη με ἡ γυνὴ οὐ μέλλειν τὴν τηθίδα σου ταύτας τὰς πολυτελεῖς δάπιδας ὠνήσεσθαι. ἐγὼ μὲν ταῦτα γράφοντα ἐν ἐπιστολῇ πέμπει αὐτὴν τῇ τηθίδι λεγόντων οὐκ ἀνάγκην εἶναι τῶν δαπίδων ἡμᾶς. ἡ δὲ τηθὶς πέμπει εἰποῦσα ὅτι τὸ παίδιον μέλλει ἀνάγκην ἐπὶ τῇ γῇ τῶν δωμάτων δάπιδας ἔχειν. καὶ ἐπρίατο σήμερον δάπιδας πολυτελεῖς. ἡ δὲ γυνὴ ἐκείνῃ ἔφη τὰς δάπιδάς σοι μέλλειν εἶναι καί σε ἐπὶ τῇ γῇ τῶν δωμάτων ἔξειν αὐτὰς. νῦν γε ἡ γυνὴ καὶ ἡ τηθὶς ὀργὰς τούτων ἔχουσί μοι.
ἐγράψατο why middle?
με --> μοι
I'd use present ὠνεῖσθαι with μέλλειν, not future. Or just ὠνήσεσθαι without μέλλειν.
γράφοντα --> if it is you, γράψας
λεγόντων --> λέγων
ἀνάγκην --> χρείαν :?:
ἡμᾶς --> ἡμῖν
εἰποῦσα --> λέγουσα :?:
ἔξειν αὐτὰς. --> ἕξειν αὐτάς.

Of course, I can be wrong :roll:

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Re: αἱ δάπιδες ἃς ἡ τηθίς ἐπρίατο

Post by jeidsath » Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:32 pm

All good corrections, thank you!

Also this line should be:

ἐγὼ μὲν ταῦτα γράψας ἐν ἐπιστολῇ πέμπω αὐτὴν τῇ τηθίδι...
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Re: αἱ δάπιδες ἃς ἡ τηθίς ἐπρίατο

Post by daivid » Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:18 pm

εἰδυῖα ἐν γαστρὶ φέρουσαν τὴν γυναῖκά μου ἡ τηθὶς σήμερον ἐπρίατο δάπιδας πολυτελεῖς. ἐπιστολὴν δὲ ἐχθὲς ἐγράψατο περὶ ταύτης τῆς βουλῆς. καὶ δὴ ἀναγιγνώσκουσα ταύτην ἔφη μοι ἡ γυνὴ οὐ μέλλειν τὴν τηθίδα σου ταύτας τὰς πολυτελεῖς δάπιδας ὠνεῖσθαι. ἐγὼ μὲν ταῦτα γράψας ἐν ἐπιστολῇ πέμπω αὐτὴν τῇ τηθίδι λέγων οὐκ χρείαν εἶναι τῶν δαπίδων ἡμῖν. ἡ δὲ τηθὶς πέμπει λέγουσα ὅτι τὸ παίδιον μέλλει ἀνάγκην ἐπὶ τῇ γῇ τῶν δωμάτων δάπιδας ἔχειν. καὶ ἐπρίατο σήμερον δάπιδας πολυτελεῖς. ἡ δὲ γυνὴ ἐκείνῃ ἔφη τὰς δάπιδάς σοι μέλλειν εἶναι καί σε ἐπὶ τῇ γῇ τῶν δωμάτων ἕξειν αὐτάς. νῦν γε ἡ γυνὴ καὶ ἡ τηθὶς ὀργὰς τούτων ἔχουσί μοι.


I went thru making all the suggested corrections before I myself began to read it. Hopefully I haven't added any mistakes inadvertently.
Thanks for posting.
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Re: αἱ δάπιδες ἃς ἡ τηθίς ἐπρίατο

Post by daivid » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:58 pm

I have read thru it now but there is something I don't get. Here is my translation:

Knowing my wife was carrying in her womb, my great aunt today bought expensive carpets. She wrote a letter yesterday concerning this intention. And moreover when she read this my wife said my great aunt was not going to buy these expensive carpets. I having written these things in a letter send to this great aunt saying that we did not have the money for the carpets. My great aunt sends ( a letter) saying that the child will be obliged to have carpets on the floor of his room. And today she buys expensive carpets. My wife to this said the carpets were going to be mine even of the floor of the room. Now my wife and my great aunt have a grudge towards me as a result of these things
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Re: αἱ δάπιδες ἃς ἡ τηθίς ἐπρίατο

Post by mwh » Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:28 am

A tidied-up version (assuming I’ve rightly understood it), taking advantage of bedwere’s corrections:

σήμερον ἡ τηθὶς εἰδυῖα τὴν γυναῖκά μου ἐν γαστρὶ φέρουσαν ἐπριάσατο δάπιδας πάνυ πολυτελεῖς· καὶ γὰρ ἐχθὲς ἐπιστολὴν ἔγραψε περὶ ταύτης τῆς βουλῆς. ταύτην μέντοι ἀναγνοῦσα ἡ γυνὴ ἔφη πρὸς ἐμέ· “οὐ δεῖ οὐδαμῶς τὴν τηθίδα σου ὠνεῖσθαι ἐκείνας τὰς δάπιδας πολυτελεῖς.” ἐγὼ τοίνυν ταῦτα γράψας ἐν ἐπιστολῇ πέμπω αὐτὴν πρὸς τὴν τηθίδα λέγων ὅτι οὐ χρείαν ἔχομεν τῶν δαπίδων. ἡ δ’ ἑτέραν πέμπει ἐπιστολήν· πάντως δεῖν τὸ παίδιον δάπιδας ἔχειν ἐπὶ τῷ ἐδάφει τῶν οἰκημάτων. καὶ δὴ σήμερον ἐπριάσατο δάπιδας πολυτελεῖς. ἡ δὲ γυνὴ πρὸς αὐτὴν ἔφη· “ἀλλὰ σὰς χρὴ εἶναι τὰς δάπιδας καὶ σὲ χρὴ ἔχειν αὐτὰς ἐπὶ τῷ ἐδάφει τῶν σῶν οἰκημάτων.” ὥστε νῦν καὶ ἡ γυνὴ καὶ ἡ τηθὶς ἐμοὶ ὠργισμένοι εἰσίν.

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Re: αἱ δάπιδες ἃς ἡ τηθίς ἐπρίατο

Post by daivid » Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:32 pm

I think I understand it now but does:
ἡ δὲ γυνὴ πρὸς αὐτὴν ἔφη· “ἀλλὰ σὰς χρὴ εἶναι τὰς δάπιδας καὶ σὲ χρὴ ἔχειν αὐτὰς ἐπὶ τῷ ἐδάφει τῶν σῶν οἰκημάτων.”
mean
And (my) wife said to her (the Great Aunt) "but it is necessary for the carpets to be yours and it is necessary for you to have them on the floor of your rooms.

Also I don't get why both women are angry with the narrator.
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Re: αἱ δάπιδες ἃς ἡ τηθίς ἐπρίατο

Post by jeidsath » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:18 pm

Thank you for the tidied up version, mwh! It is much appreciated and lets me know what I need to work on (connectives, mainly).

David, the important chunks are:

οὐ δεῖ οὐδαμῶς τὴν τηθίδα σου ὠνεῖσθαι ἐκείνας τὰς δάπιδας πολυτελεῖς (ἐφὴ ἡ γύνη)

πάντως δεῖν τὸ παίδιον δάπιδας ἔχειν ἐπὶ τῷ ἐδάφει τῶν οἰκημάτων. (ἐφὴ ἡ τηθίς)

καὶ δὴ σήμερον ἐπριάσατο δάπιδας πολυτελεῖς

ἀλλὰ σὰς χρὴ εἶναι τὰς δάπιδας (ἐφὴ ἡ γύνη)

As for your question, ἄγγελος γὰρ ὢν ὤργισα τὰς γυναίκας.
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Re: αἱ δάπιδες ἃς ἡ τηθίς ἐπρίατο

Post by daivid » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:17 pm

jeidsath wrote:
David, the important chunks are:

οὐ δεῖ οὐδαμῶς τὴν τηθίδα σου ὠνεῖσθαι ἐκείνας τὰς δάπιδας πολυτελεῖς (ἐφὴ ἡ γύνη)

πάντως δεῖν τὸ παίδιον δάπιδας ἔχειν ἐπὶ τῷ ἐδάφει τῶν οἰκημάτων. (ἐφὴ ἡ τηθίς)

καὶ δὴ σήμερον ἐπριάσατο δάπιδας πολυτελεῖς

ἀλλὰ σὰς χρὴ εἶναι τὰς δάπιδας (ἐφὴ ἡ γύνη)

As for your question, ἄγγελος γὰρ ὢν ὤργισα τὰς γυναίκας.
If someone is really stumped then hints can push them over the hill and things suddenly become clear.
My problem, however, is that I think I get it but I am uncertain. Hints don't help to reduce the uncertainty. It would help though if you could tell me that the sentence that I have translated is correct and if not how.
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Re: αἱ δάπιδες ἃς ἡ τηθίς ἐπρίατο

Post by jeidsath » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:21 pm

Yes, it's correct. Aunt instead of Great Aunt.
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Re: αἱ δάπιδες ἃς ἡ τηθίς ἐπρίατο

Post by mwh » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:32 pm

daivid, Yes your translation is basically right. The σάς and σέ (with accent) are emphatic, both by form and by position; I hope this represented Joel's intention. Similarly σῶν (which I added to retain the intensity). And χρή and δεῖ are rarely if ever well translated by “it is necessary”—that just helps remind you what the construction is.
“The carpets have to/must/should/ought to be yours, and you have to have them on the floor of your rooms.” Don’t be afraid to use italics or underlinings to bring out the meaning conveyed in Greek by other means (position, form). In Joel’s original he should have put accents on σοι and σε (and an enclitic would not come after καί).

PS And the opening αλλα would best be translated “No,”.
ου … αλλα means “not A but B instead.” Here the first negatived part is not explicit. So what αλλα implies here is “We’re not taking the expensive carpets you went ahead and bought despite our telling you we didn’t want them. No, instead of that,” (they’re yours etc.).
This use of αλλα is quite common, and quite nice I think. “But” is inadequate as a translation.

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Re: αἱ δάπιδες ἃς ἡ τηθίς ἐπρίατο

Post by daivid » Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:57 pm

Thanks to both of you for hardening things up. And also for explaining αλλα. Yes and no are central to English but those meanings are covered a whole host of words and constructions in Ancient Greek. Thanks for drawing my attention to how αλλα is part of that group.
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Re: αἱ δάπιδες ἃς ἡ τηθίς ἐπρίατο

Post by Pros » Sat Jul 02, 2016 5:46 am

mwh wrote:
πάντως δεῖν τὸ παίδιον δάπιδας ἔχειν ἐπὶ τῷ ἐδάφει τῶν οἰκημάτων.
Is there a reason why the infinitive δεῖν is used here instead of δεῖ?

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Re: αἱ δάπιδες ἃς ἡ τηθίς ἐπρίατο

Post by jeidsath » Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:10 pm

It's something that she has written in the letter, so Oratio Obliqua despite not having a direct verb ("sc. λέγουσα" as mwh might say).

Here is Sidgwick's section on it: https://books.google.com/books?id=JdUIA ... &q&f=false
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Re: αἱ δάπιδες ἃς ἡ τηθίς ἐπρίατο

Post by mwh » Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:44 pm

Here’s what I’d written in reply to pros but somehow neglected to post. Sorry about that.

It’s indirect speech, representing what the aunt said in her letter. You can “understand” a verb of saying.
παντως δειν counterbalances the wife’s ου δει ουδαμως.

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Re: αἱ δάπιδες ἃς ἡ τηθίς ἐπρίατο

Post by Hylander » Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:18 pm

ἐπριάσατο -- Is this right? Shouldn't it be ἐπρίατο, as it was at the beginning?

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Re: αἱ δάπιδες ἃς ἡ τηθίς ἐπρίατο

Post by mwh » Mon Jul 04, 2016 1:09 am

Yes it most certainly should. I wasn’t thinking, and carelessly took Joel’s επριατο for an uncalled-for imperfect. :oops:

And I see I failed to correct παίδιον to παιδίον.

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