What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

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mwh
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by mwh » Sat Aug 06, 2016 4:06 am

daivid, Who’s the subject of ἐλάλει?
πέρι τρίτης καὶ δεκάτης διορθώσεως: should be περὶ (the accent is πέρι only when the preposition follows its noun, which is not often; similarly with ἀπό, ἐπί, διά, etc.); and why no article with τρίτης etc?

Again, best not to look at Markos’s or Joel’s attempts at Greek, which will do your Greek no good at all. Or if you wanted you could try fixing some of Joel's mistakes; that might be a worthwhile exercise, to see how many you can catch. (He's following up on his criticism of you for writing μέρος τοῦ τοῦ Χαρίτωνος βίβλου, with two identical articles next to each other—an infelicity which ceases to exist once you correct the first one to τῆς.)

ὦ φίλε Μᾶρκε, εἰ οἴει ἐκείνην τὴν Δίκην σε ἐπαινεῖν ἂν τοιαῦτα γράφοντα οἷα εἴωθας γράφειν, θαυμαστῶς ὡς ἐξαπατᾷ. τὸ γὰρ εὖ μανθάνειν τὴν ἑλληνικὴν φαίνει περὶ οὐδενὸς ποιούμενος. (I'm not sure you'll understand this, but I write in Greek to humor you.)

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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by jeidsath » Sat Aug 06, 2016 5:13 am

χάριν φέρει μοι, ὅστις τὰ σφάλματα μου ἐνδείκνυσι.

And in case anyone does want to correct it -- Daivid or others -- here was what I tried to say in English:
ἐγὼ μὲν ἔσφηλα τοῦ τῆς βίβλου τὸ γένος εὕρειν. ὁ δὲ Μάρκος οὐ, "τοῦ βιβλίου" ἐξορθώσας Δαιυιδ. ἐγὼ δὲ οὐ γνοὺς τὰ παραδείματα τοῦ Αμπλαου καὶ χάριν ἔχω αὐτῷ. ἀξιῶ μέντοι ὑμῖν, ὦ φίλοι, νοῦν ἔχειν πρὸς ταῦτα τὰ παραδείγματα. τῶν δὲ παραδείγμων τούτων οὔκ ἐστι ἓν ἀκριβῶς ὂν ὅμοιον τῷ λόγῳ τοῦ Δαιυιδ. δύω γάρ ἐστι ὀνόματα ἐν τούτῳ τῷ λόγῳ ὃ ἑκάτερον "τοῦ" ἔχει. ἕξοιμεν ἃν δὲ ταὐτὸν εἰ γράφoιμεν "τοῦ τοῦ δούλου δώρου." δόκει δὲ μοι, εἰ ζητοῦμεν παραδείγμα τοιαῦτα, μὴ ἡμᾶς αὐτὸ εὑρήσεσθαι.
I failed of the discovery of the gender of "τῆς βίβλου." But not so Markos, who had corrected Daivid with "τοῦ βιβλίου." And I, not having knowledge of the examples of Amplaos am also thankful to him. However, I request you, friends, to turn your attention to the examples. And of these examples not one is precisely similar to the expression of Daivid. For there are two nouns in these expression which each have "τοῦ." And we should have same were we to write "τοῦ τοῦ δούλου δώρου." But it appears to me, if we search for this sort of example, we do not find it.

That last ἡμᾶς should be ἡμεῖς. As I say above, anyone who wants to point out errors does me a favor.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by Timothée » Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:32 am

I could venture to point a few things out, though I always feel really bad about this, as I still have no courage to compose Greek myself and publish it here. Maybe some day... But here goes — some remarks mainly to Joel. I'm positive I didn't catch everything noteworthy, but maybe mwh could give the rest?

τὰ σφάλματά μου (enclitic)
I think that εὑρίσκειν gladly takes simply accusatiuus cum infinitiuo, so could it be simply "— — τὸ τῆς βίβλου γένος εὑρεῖν"? Note also that the 2nd aorist active infinitive is perispomenon.
Latin Marcus has first syllable long θέσει καὶ φύσει, so it's Μᾶρκος in Greek. As to "Joel" in Greek, I think Ἰωήλ is better, as that's the Hebrew accent, and we do have also e.g. Ἰσραήλ.

As βύβλος is apparently more original, βίβλος being a little later, analogical form on the model of the assimilated βιβλίον < *βυβλίον, I have for this reason only recently started to prefer βύβλος myself, though βίβλος is emphatically not wrong.

Ὁ δὲ Μᾶρκος οὔ: οὐ takes accent before a punctuation mark (= pause).
παραδεί[γ]ματα — — παραδειγμάτων — — παραδείγμα[τα]

I wonder if the verb ἀξιοῦν, too, could simply take acc. c. inf. If this is so, ἀξιῶ — — ὑμᾶς — — νοῦν ἔχειν. I'm not quite sure.

If we want to Graecise "Daivid", there are a few possibilities, but maybe Δαυίδ could be preferrable here (note again the accent conforming with that in Hebrew).

Δύω is the epic form (δύο in prose), but maybe you have been reading Homer and did this on purpose.

Δοκεῖ has the perispomenon (it's contracted). Could the last clause be thought subordinate (again with acc. c. inf.) for δοκεῖ μοι? If so, ἡμᾶς is indeed correct.

Markos, don't you want to use the Greek question mark when writing Greek?

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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by Markos » Sun Aug 07, 2016 8:06 am

σήμερον μέντοι ἔμαθον τὸν μῦθον Αἰσώπειον, τὸν «Ἀνὴρ μεσοπόλιος καὶ ἑταῖραι.» σὺν δὲ τῇ τοῦ Βεδωερε βοηθείᾳ τὸν μῦθον ἀνέγνων.

πρῶτον μὲν ἔβλεπον ταύτην τὴν εἰκόνα.
bedwere wrote:Ἀνὴρ μεσοπόλιος καὶ ἑταῖραι

Image
τὸν τοῦ μύθου μῦθον, χωρὶς Βρεττανικῶν λόγων, εὖ λέγει ἡ εἰκών, κατὰ τὸν Μᾶρκον.

ἔπειτα δ' ἀνέγνων τὴν καλὴν τοῦ Βεδωερε παράφρασιν.
bedwere wrote:Ἡ μὲν πρεσβυτέρα ἐρωμένη ἀποσπᾷ τὰς μελαίνας τοῦ ἀνδρὸς τρίχας, ἡ δὲ νεωτέρα τὰς λευκάς. Τοιγαροῦν ἡ τοῦ ἀνδρὸς κεφαλὴ ψιλὴ γίγνεται.
καλοὶ γάρ εἰσι οἱ τοῦ Βεδωερε λόγοι καὶ εὔκοποι τοῦ καταλαβείν, δοκεῖ μοι. χάριν οὖν αὐτῷ οἶδα. τῷ δὲ Θεῷ τῷ ποιήσαντι τὸν Βεδωερε εὐχαριστῶ πολύ.

μετὰ δὲ τοῦτο, ἀνέγνων πέντε Ἐλληνκικὰς ἐκδόσεις τοῦ μύθου ἐκ τοῦ τοῦ Κάμβρου βιβλίου, τούτ ἐστιν ἐκ τοῦ βιβλίου τοῦ 1925. καλὴ δ' ἡ βύβλος καὶ φίλη ἐμοί.

τὴν δὲ δύναμιν τοῦ «ἐπιβλαβής» ἐν τῷ λεξικῶ τῷ Λ.Σ.Κ εὗρον.

τέλος δ' ἤκουσον τοῦ Ροβέρτο λέγοντος τὸν μῦθον.


https://ia601502.us.archive.org/5/items ... _aesop.mp3

κατέλαβον πάντα διότι πολλάκις ἑλληνιζω μετὰ Ῥοβέρτου. φίλος γάρ ἐστιν καὶ στόμα πρὸς στόμα.

καλῶς οὖν ἔμαθον τὸν μύθον. καὶ χαρὰν εἶχον μόνοις τοῖς μονογλωττοῖς χρώμενος.
jeidsath wrote:ἐγὼ μὲν ἔσφηλα τοῦ τῆς βίβλου τὸ γένος εὕρειν. ὁ δὲ Μάρκος οὐ, "τοῦ βιβλίου" ἐξορθώσας Δαιυιδ.
εὖ λέγεις, φίλε Ἰώηλ. πολλὰ γὰρ ἥμαρτον καὶ ἁμαρτήσῶ. ἐν δὲ τούτῳ οὔ. τῶν δὲ τῶν Ἑλληνιστί γραφόντων πολλάκις ἁμαρτάνων, πρῶτός εἰμι. :D
mwh wrote:ὦ φίλε Μᾶρκε, εἰ οἴει ἐκείνην τὴν Δίκην σε ἐπαινεῖν ἂν τοιαῦτα γράφοντα οἷα εἴωθας γράφειν, θαυμαστῶς ὡς ἐξαπατᾷ. τὸ γὰρ εὖ μανθάνειν τὴν ἑλληνικὴν φαίνει περὶ οὐδενὸς ποιούμενος.
χαίροις, φίλτατε. χαίρω δέ σε ἰδὼν γράφοντα τὴν ἑλληνικὴν γλῶσσαν. πάντα δὲ κατέλαβον. χάριν οὖν σοι οἶδα δή.

τί δ' ὄνομά σου Ἑλληνιστί? ποῦ δ' οἰκεῖς σύγε? τέκνα ἔχεις? εἰπέ μοι, παρακαλῶ.
Timothée wrote:Markos, don't you want to use the Greek question mark when writing Greek?
πῶς γὰρ οὔ; :lol:
Last edited by Markos on Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.

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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by daivid » Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:53 am

Τέως μεσημβρία ἀγρυπνῶν νύκτα οὐκ ἐδυνάμην μανθάνειν. τότε ἀνέγνων μέρος τῆς βίβλου τοῦ Χαρίτωνος περὶ ἔρωτος.
mwh wrote:daivid, Who’s the subject of ἐλάλει?
ἐλάλουν
mwh wrote: πέρι τρίτης καὶ δεκάτης διορθώσεως: should be περὶ (the accent is πέρι only when the preposition follows its noun, which is not often; similarly with ἀπό, ἐπί, διά, etc.); and why no article with τρίτης etc?
χάριν σοι ἔχω
Timothée wrote: If we want to Graecise "Daivid", there are a few possibilities, but maybe Δαυίδ could be preferrable here (note again the accent conforming with that in Hebrew).
ἀρέσκει μοι μᾶλλον Δειφιδ (Δειφιδος) ἱκετεύω.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by daivid » Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:58 pm

Χαρίτων εστι κουφότερος πλὴν οὐκ αὐτὸν ἀναγιγνώσκω ἀκονιτὶ οὔποτε. τήμερον μέντοι ἦν δυσκολώτερος.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by mwh » Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:59 pm

Good. One or two points however, now that you’re getting better:

In Greek you wouldn’t say that an author is easy (ῥᾴδιος) or light (κοῦφος) or hard or whatever, and you wouldn’t ordinarily speak of reading an author. You’d speak of their books or their writings (e.g. τὰ ὑπὸ Ξενοφῶντος γεγραμμένα or τὰ Ξενοφῶντι γεγραμμένα).

Your use of πλήν is not wrong but ἀλλά would be better. You can also start clauses with πλὴν ὅτι “except that.”

ἀκονιτί is a nice word (lit. “undustily,” κόνις dust, ἀ- a negating prefix as in asymptomatic, -ί an old adverbial ending) but an unusual one, and I’m guessing you’ve never seen it before, or not until you looked up ?”without a struggle” in an Eng.-Gk. dictionary. Words that you’ve never actually seen in use you should look up in the Greek lexicon to get a better idea of what they mean and how they’re used.

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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by Markos » Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:28 am

ἀσκήσεις ὀλίγας ἐκ τοῦ τῆς Δίκευ βιβλίου ἐτέλεσα.
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.

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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by mwh » Mon Aug 08, 2016 3:42 am

εὖγε Μᾶρκε. οὕτως γὰρ διατελῶν οὐκ ὀλίγον προκόψεις, εὖ οἶδ’ ὅτι. ἀλλ’ ἀσκήσεις ὀλίγας (ὃ μεθερμηνευόμενον ἂν εἴη “only a few”) θέλεις ἤτοι οὐ πολλάς (“a few”); διαφέρουσι γάρ.
(καὶ ἄσκησις : ἄσκημα :: ποίησις : ποίημα)

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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by Timothée » Mon Aug 08, 2016 2:22 pm

Of course we cannot always be exact or strict about names and their parallels in Ancient Greek. What would, for instance, become of Friedrich, Eadward or Ælfræd?

I can only offer my opinion in that where we have nice parallels, I do think it pays to use them, as this is traditional custom. This biblical name is given by Lampe as Δαυίδ, Δαβίδ and Δαυείδ. It will be indeclinable as most Hebrew names (e.g. εἰς πόλιν Δαυίδ).

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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by daivid » Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:35 pm

ἀνέγνων μέρος τῆς ὑπὸ Ρουσος* γεγραμμένης βίβλου.
mwh wrote: In Greek you wouldn’t say that an author is easy (ῥᾴδιος) or light (κοῦφος) or hard or whatever, and you wouldn’t ordinarily speak of reading an author. You’d speak of their books or their writings (e.g. τὰ ὑπὸ Ξενοφῶντος γεγραμμένα or τὰ Ξενοφῶντι γεγραμμένα).
εὔκοπος?
mwh wrote:Your use of πλήν is not wrong but ἀλλά would be better. You can also start clauses with πλὴν ὅτι “except that.”
χάριν σοι ἔχω.
mwh wrote:
ἀκονιτί is a nice word (lit. “undustily,” κόνις dust, ἀ- a negating prefix as in asymptomatic, -ί an old adverbial ending) but an unusual one, and I’m guessing you’ve never seen it before, or not until you looked up ?”without a struggle” in an Eng.-Gk. dictionary. Words that you’ve never actually seen in use you should look up in the Greek lexicon to get a better idea of what they mean and how they’re used.
I read it in Chariton. One of the jealous suitors used it to describe how Chaereas had won Callirhoe despite not doing anything to gain her (unless you count pining away out of love and the suitors would not count that).

*Ρουσος=W H D Rouse
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by mwh » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:44 am

Good—if Ῥουσος is meant to be genitive.
εὔκοπος. Yes you could use that to say e.g. ὁ Χαρίτωνος λόγος εὐκοπώτερος συνἱέναι ἢ ὁ Ξενοφῶντος ("Char’s tale is easier to read/understand than Xen’s"). But I think you’ve picked up vocab from Markos, which tends to be more NT than Attic.
ἀκονιτί. So you had actually encountered it in your reading, and my guess was wrong! Splendid! It fit the situation well.

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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by daivid » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:33 pm

ἐπεὶ φράσεις ἐν τῇ τοῦ Ρουσος βίβλῳ ἔφηναν ὡς αἰνίγματα ἔδοξε μοι ἀναγιγνώσκειν μέρος τῆς ὕπο Ξενοφῶντος γεγραμμένης βίβλου.
mwh wrote:Good—if Ῥουσος is meant to be genitive.
But I did forget to change back to the nominative for the footnote. :(
mwh wrote: εὔκοπος. Yes you could use that to say e.g. ὁ Χαρίτωνος λόγος εὐκοπώτερος συνἱέναι ἢ ὁ Ξενοφῶντος ("Char’s tale is easier to read/understand than Xen’s"). But I think you’ve picked up vocab from Markos, which tends to be more NT than Attic.
I actually acquired it from Christophe Rico. I don't aim to write pure Attic but it is good to be aware of what isn't pure Attic. (According to Perseus it is quite a rare word even among later writers.)
mwh wrote: ἀκονιτί. So you had actually encountered it in your reading, and my guess was wrong! Splendid! It fit the situation well.
χάριν σοι οἴδα .
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by daivid » Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:29 pm

ἔγραψα μέρος τι λόγου κατὰ τὸ τοῦ Δουγλου παράδειγμα λέγοντος ἀντὶ Λινκονος.
Δουγλης =Stephen Douglas, Λινκον= Lincoln.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by daivid » Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:21 pm

χρώμενος τῇ ὑπὸ τοῦ Ταιλορος καί τοῦ Ἀνδερσονος γεγραμμένης βίβλου* συνέγραψα φράσεις.

* Writing Greek, Anderson and Taylor
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by daivid » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:48 pm

χρώμενος τῇ ὑπὸ Ταιλορος γεγραμμένης βίβλῳ ἤσκουν καὶ ἀνέγνων μικρὸν μέρος τῆς ὑπὸ τοῦ Χαρίτωνος γεγραμμένης.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by daivid » Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:20 pm

χρώμενος τῇ ὑπὸ Ταιλορος γεγραμμένης βίβλου ἁμαρτών, ἐξήλειψα καὶ πάλιν ἐπείρασα
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by mwh » Sat Aug 13, 2016 11:32 pm

τῇ … γεγραμμένης βίβλου?!

χρώμενος … ἁμαρτών. Awkward to have two participles like this. Try e.g. ἁμαρτὼν ὅτε ἐχρώμην (impf.)

ἐπείρασα. OK but middle is more common. E.g. “I had a go at writing something correctly” (“I tried to write …”) ἐπειρασάμην ὀρθῶς γράφειν τι. (Or ἐπειράθην, the aor. passive form used in a middle sense. Quite a lot of verbs do this.)

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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by daivid » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:02 pm

τήμερον μέρος τις τῆς ὑπὸ Χαρίτωνος γεγραμμένης βίβλου ἐμνημόνευσα.
mwh wrote:τῇ … γεγραμμένης βίβλου?!
βίβλῳ :oops:
mwh wrote: χρώμενος … ἁμαρτών. Awkward to have two participles like this. Try e.g. ἁμαρτὼν ὅτε ἐχρώμην (impf.)
ἐπείρασα. OK but middle is more common. E.g. “I had a go at writing something correctly” (“I tried to write …”) ἐπειρασάμην ὀρθῶς γράφειν τι. (Or ἐπειράθην, the aor. passive form used in a middle sense. Quite a lot of verbs do this.)
ἐξήλειψα καὶ πάλιν ἐπειρασάμην
χάριν σοι οἴδα
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by mwh » Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:34 am

μέρος τις Gender of μέρος?

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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by jeidsath » Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:30 am

ἀκονιτί is a nice word (lit. “undustily,” κόνις dust, ἀ- a negating prefix as in asymptomatic, -ί an old adverbial ending) but an unusual one
I just came across this word in Wilson's Harry Potter, and knew it because of Daivid's use here, and the discussion.

"Ἀκονιτὶ γὰρ προὐχώρησεν;"
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by John W. » Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:39 am

jeidsath wrote:
ἀκονιτί is a nice word (lit. “undustily,” κόνις dust, ἀ- a negating prefix as in asymptomatic, -ί an old adverbial ending) but an unusual one
I just came across this word in Wilson's Harry Potter, and knew it because of Daivid's use here, and the discussion.

"Ἀκονιτὶ γὰρ προὐχώρησεν;"
There is also a nice instance of this word in Thucydides, at 4.73.2: ἐπειδή γε ἐν φανερῷ ἔδειξαν ἑτοῖμοι ὄντες ἀμύνεσθαι, καὶ αὐτοῖς ὥσπερ ἀκονιτὶ τὴν νίκην δικαίως ἂν τίθεσθαι - 'since they [Brasidas and his men] had in any case clearly demonstrated that they were ready to defend themselves, so that without, as it were, incurring the dust of combat, the victory could in their view justly be credited to them'.

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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by daivid » Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:21 pm

μόλις οὖν ἔκειτο πλήν*, ἀνέγνων μέρος τι τῆς ὑπὸ Ξενοφῶντος γεγραμμένης βίβλου περὶ Ἑλλάδος.

*Chariton 1.4.2
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by mwh » Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:13 am

The TLG text is μόλις οὖν ἐκεῖνος πλὴν ὑπηγάγετο τὴν μείρακα …. Does yours have εκειτο? Either way the expression is difficult, not a good model to follow. You should at least have cancelled the ουν, and not put a comma after πλήν.
(With εκεινος the Chariton is literally “So with difficulty he except he seduced the girl,” meaning he found it difficult but he did manage to seduce her. It’s elliptical, and I’d recommend you stick to plainer constructions.)

ὁ TLG ἀποδίδωσι κατὰ λέξιν "μόλις οὖν ἐκεῖνος πλὴν ὑπηγάγετο τὴν μείρακα" κτλ. ἡ δὲ παρὰ σοὶ ἔκδοσις τὸ δὴ "ἔκειτο"; ἀλλ’ οὐ ῥᾳδίως γ’ οὐδ’ ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν ἀκονιτί τις ἂν συνεἵη οὔτε τοῦτο οὔτ’ ἐκεῖνο, οὐδ’ ὡς παράδειγμα ἀποδεκτέον. ἔδει σε τὸ γοῦν "οὖν" διαγράψαι, οὐδὲ μετὰ τὸ "πλήν" τὴν φράσιν διαστεῖλαι.

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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by John W. » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:16 am

Why not simply use μόλις on its own, which is how Thucydides conveys the sense 'with difficulty', or 'it was only with difficulty [that X did Y]' (if that's what you're after here)?

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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by daivid » Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:13 pm

ἔμαθον χρώμενος τῇ βίβλῳ ὑπὸ Ναλλος γεγραμμένης κατὰ τὴν τοῦ Ρυθερφορδος γεγραμμένης βίβλον.

(Nall wrote a book of exercises which relies on Rutherford's grammar.)
mwh wrote:The TLG text is μόλις οὖν ἐκεῖνος πλὴν ὑπηγάγετο τὴν μείρακα …. Does yours have εκειτο? Either way the expression is difficult, not a good model to follow. You should at least have cancelled the ουν, and not put a comma after πλήν.
(With εκεινος the Chariton is literally “So with difficulty he except he seduced the girl,” meaning he found it difficult but he did manage to seduce her. It’s elliptical, and I’d recommend you stick to plainer constructions.)

ὁ TLG ἀποδίδωσι κατὰ λέξιν "μόλις οὖν ἐκεῖνος πλὴν ὑπηγάγετο τὴν μείρακα" κτλ. ἡ δὲ παρὰ σοὶ ἔκδοσις τὸ δὴ "ἔκειτο"; ἀλλ’ οὐ ῥᾳδίως γ’ οὐδ’ ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν ἀκονιτί τις ἂν συνεἵη οὔτε τοῦτο οὔτ’ ἐκεῖνο, οὐδ’ ὡς παράδειγμα ἀποδεκτέον. ἔδει σε τὸ γοῦν "οὖν" διαγράψαι, οὐδὲ μετὰ τὸ "πλήν" τὴν φράσιν διαστεῖλαι.
Perseus has εκειτο. Cashman Kerr Prince does have ἐκεῖνος but I only checked the commentary which was no help at all. I was going to post a question on that sentence but then convinced myself I did understand it. Clearly I did not understand it but with your explanation and knowing it should be εκεινος it is much clearer.

I looked up elliptical and it told me that some word has been dropped. Perhaps ἄνθρωπος after ἐκεῖνος.?
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by mwh » Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:44 am

I called it elliptical because μολις … πλην … υπηγαγετο “with difficulty except he seduced” needs filling out for it to make sense grammatically. Since πλην beings a new clause, μολις is left stranded without a verb. We can understand something like “Only with difficulty [did he seduce her], except/but he did seduce her.”
It’s very good to utilize words and constructions you meet in your reading (as you did with ακονιτί), but in this instance it’s probably best to forget all about such a grammatically anomalous construction—forget the whole thing. As John said, you could have just said μόλις ανέγνων.

Much more important: In today's post you have γεγραμμένης twice—each time in the wrong case. That’s the sort of thing you should be concentrating on—what goes with what. “the book written by X”—“written” has to agree with “the book”, whatever case “the book” is in. To be quite honest I don’t understand why you find this so very difficult, but clearly you do.

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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by daivid » Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:25 pm

ἐβάδιζον κατὰ τὴν ὁδοὺς ἀναγινώσκων φράσιν τίνα ὑπὸ Ξενοφῶντος γεγραμμένην.
mwh wrote:I called it elliptical because μολις … πλην … υπηγαγετο “with difficulty except he seduced” needs filling out for it to make sense grammatically. Since πλην beings a new clause, μολις is left stranded without a verb. We can understand something like “Only with difficulty [did he seduce her], except/but he did seduce her.”
It’s very good to utilize words and constructions you meet in your reading (as you did with ακονιτί), but in this instance it’s probably best to forget all about such a grammatically anomalous construction—forget the whole thing. As John said, you could have just said μόλις ανέγνων.
It might have been rash for me to attempt to write that phrase, I do need to understand them if I am to read Chariton. So your explanation has been very helpful.

Really, I need to read something much easier but Chariton is about as easy as it gets as there are so few easy readers.
mwh wrote:Much more important: In today's post you have γεγραμμένης twice—each time in the wrong case. That’s the sort of thing you should be concentrating on—what goes with what. “the book written by X”—“written” has to agree with “the book”, whatever case “the book” is in. To be quite honest I don’t understand why you find this so very difficult, but clearly you do.
Nor could my driving instructor understand why I kept repeating the same mistake despite repeated corrections. Eventually he lost his temper which I take as a sign that I am not typical - driving instructors who shout at their pupils soon run out of customers. The reason was I was concentrating something else and was unable to focus on what he wanted me to focus on as well. Unlike Greek I gave up trying to drive rather quickly - cars kill.

But I did learn Serbo-Croat because I read a large quantity of children's books and declensions became sufficiently automatic that (mostly) they no longer gave me trouble.

But there are too few easy readers in Ancient Greek
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by mwh » Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:51 am

What were you concentrating on when you wrote τὴν ὁδοὺς? Can you correct it?

And can you correct each γεγραμμένης in ἔμαθον χρώμενος τῇ βίβλῳ ὑπὸ Ναλλος γεγραμμένης κατὰ τὴν τοῦ Ρυθερφορδος γεγραμμένης βίβλον?

If not, I may just have to join your driving instructor. :(

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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by daivid » Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:25 pm

ἀναγιγνώσκων τὴν ὑπὸ Παυσανίου γεγραμμένην ἔμαθον διότι Πύρρος ἐπέθηκεν Κόρκυραν.
mwh wrote:What were you concentrating on when you wrote τὴν ὁδοὺς? Can you correct it?

And can you correct each γεγραμμένης in ἔμαθον χρώμενος τῇ βίβλῳ ὑπὸ Ναλλος γεγραμμένης κατὰ τὴν τοῦ Ρυθερφορδος γεγραμμένης βίβλον?

If not, I may just have to join your driving instructor. :(
ἔμαθον χρώμενος τῇ βίβλῳ ὑπὸ Ναλλος γεγραμμένῃ κατὰ τὴν τοῦ Ρυθερφορδος γεγραμμένην βίβλον.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by daivid » Sat Aug 20, 2016 11:25 pm

ἐμελέτων χρώμενος τε μέρος τῆς ὑπὸ Ναλλος γεγραμμένης βιβλου και ὄμορον μερος τι τῆς ὑπὸ Ρυσσελλος γεγραμμένης βίβλου.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by mwh » Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:30 am

τε is postpositive: should go after μερος.
And μέρος is in the wrong case: χρώμενος doesn’t take accusative but …?

Ι'm not quite sure what you mean by ὄμορον.

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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by John W. » Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:27 am

Daivid - in addition to the specific points made by Michael, may I offer one suggestion?

This is the third occasion in a relatively short space of time that the case to be used with χρώμενος has caused you problems. Is there perhaps a case (no pun intended) for you to make a note of such things, and to check each of your sentences against it before posting?

Apart from such specifics, I'd suggest that, before hitting the 'submit' button, you double check to ensure that (a) verbs are in the right person, and (b) relevant words (e.g. definite articles and participles) are in agreement.

Hopefully in time the need for such formal procedures will diminish, and things will become more 'second nature' to you.

Just a suggestion, to help you deal with some important recurring issues ...

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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by daivid » Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:06 pm

χρώμενος τῇ ὑπὸ Ξενοφῶντος γεγραμμένῃ βίβλῳ ἔμαθον ποῦ τιθέναι τὸν λόγον «τε».
mwh wrote:τε is postpositive: should go after μερος.
And μέρος is in the wrong case: χρώμενος doesn’t take accusative but …?
μέρει
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mwh wrote: Ι'm not quite sure what you mean by ὄμορον.
The dictionary said ὅμορος means "adjacent, closely resembling,". Now I come to think of it, I probably read it in Strabo who would have used it in the sense of adjacent. What I wanted was similar in the sense of covering the same grammatical area. παραπλήσιος perhaps?
John W. wrote: This is the third occasion in a relatively short space of time that the case to be used with χρώμενος has caused you problems. Is there perhaps a case (no pun intended) for you to make a note of such things, and to check each of your sentences against it before posting?
Usually I think I have. I will try making a list of problem areas. It may become too long to be workable but it's worth a try. Thanks for the suggestion.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by mwh » Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:10 am

“ἔμαθον ποῦ τιθέναι τὸν λόγον «τε».” An important point of syntax here. The ποῦ (or ὅπου, you can use either) introduces an indirect question, so it needs a finite verb (not an infinitive as in English “where to put it").
You could (1) simply add δεῖ in front of τιθέναι (“where one should place τε”), or δεῖ με “where I should …”);
or you could (2) use a verbal adjective, ποῦ θετέον (εστι) τὸ τε (“where τε is to be placed”);
or you could (3) use a deliberative subjunctive, ποῦ τιθῶ τὸ τε (“where I am to place τε”), as in Archimedes’ δός μοι ποῦ στῶ … (“Give me where I am to stand …” i.e. “Give me a place to stand”).
What you can’t do is use an infinitive. That’s ungrammatical.

A very minor vocab point: Greek for “the word” in this context is ἡ λέξις. Or you can just use τό, as I’ve done above, which has the effect of putting what follows in quotes (the Greeks didn’t have quote-marks). τὸ τε = “τε”.

ὅμορος is ὁμ(ο)-ὅρος (ὅρος a boundary, border), so means having a common border, like England and Scotland. Cf. e.g. ὅμαιμος, i.e. ὅμ(ο)-αἱμος (αἷμα blood), of a blood relation, or ὁμόφωνος (φωνή voice), speaking the same language.
παραπλήσιος is a good suggestion: και παραπλήσιόν τι μέρος “and a corresponding section”—or rather, since it's dependent on χρώμενος, παραπλησίῳ μέρει τινι.

If you ever again use χρώμενος with any case other than dative, I’ll seek you out and scream at you. Incentive enough?

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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by Timothée » Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:29 am

Archimedes' famous dictum was discussed at some length here, though the syntax of ποῦ was not (explicitly) opened like mwh just above.

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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by daivid » Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:31 pm

χρώμενος τῇ ὑπὸ Ρυσσελλος γεγραμμένῃ βίβλῳ ἐμελέτων φράσεις σὺν τῷ «ὁτί».

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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by mwh » Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:15 am

ὁτί ἢ ὅτι;

A more subtle point: it’s not clear from the Greek that σὺν τῷ ὅτι goes with φράσεις rather than with ἐμελέτων. I presume you don’t mean to say that along with ὅτι you practiced sentences. You could say you practiced φράσεις αἳ ἔχουσι τὸ ὅτι, or φράσεις τὸ ὅτι ἐχούσας.

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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by daivid » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:04 pm

ἔγραψα ἱστορίαν περὶ πολεμοῦ Ἀθηνῶν ἀντὶ Σπάρτας.
mwh wrote:ὁτί ἢ ὅτι;
ὅτι
mwh wrote: A more subtle point: it’s not clear from the Greek that σὺν τῷ ὅτι goes with φράσεις rather than with ἐμελέτων. I presume you don’t mean to say that along with ὅτι you practiced sentences. You could say you practiced φράσεις αἳ ἔχουσι τὸ ὅτι, or φράσεις τὸ ὅτι ἐχούσας.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)

Post by mwh » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:25 am

“ἔγραψα ἱστορίαν περὶ πολεμοῦ Ἀθηνῶν ἀντὶ Σπάρτας.”

Cities don’t have wars. You mean the Athenians and the Lacedaemonians.

ἀντί as a preposition means “instead of.” For “against” you could use ἐπί with dative, or επί with accusative if they sent armed forces against them (since the accusative implies movement towards, as with πρός and εἰς).

πολέμου (note accent) “a war.” Article needed if you mean “the” war.

Do we get to see this story?

ὄιδα wrong accent.

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