Search found 763 matches

by seneca2008
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:25 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Ablative of place without preposition?
Replies: 16
Views: 1672

Re: Ablative of place without preposition?

So, of the four possibilites, 1. she was mocked by death (means) 2. she was mocked with respect to death (specification) 3. she was mocked because of death (cause) 4. she was mocked by death (agent) #1 and #4 would seem to be the best choices. #4 requires a preposition, however, so we are left with...
by seneca2008
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:33 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 4225

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

@mwh Forgive my ignorance αἰσχύνη is a word I am familiar with in Tragedy I didn't realise it occurred in Homer. I will investigate further. We will just have to agree to differ on slaves. But many scholars do regard amphipoloi as slaves. Jones says at the conclusion of his article that the "real pr...
by seneca2008
Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:13 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 4225

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

I haven't read the article, but I don't think the reflexive reading of the middle here is right. I think they're inviting him to bathe (possibly/probably with them helping), not to wash himself . Jones accepts that "λοῦσθαι at 216 cannot be forced of itself to bear the meaning "wash himself". But λ...
by seneca2008
Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:49 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 4225

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

I’m surprised at you relying on an English “dictionary definition.” I have looked at "Aidos: The Psychology and Ethics of Honour and Shame in Ancient Greek Literature" Douglas L Carins 1993. He is not very helpful on 6.221-2 (p 125-6) where he simply elides many of the issues teased out by Jones. C...
by seneca2008
Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:19 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 4225

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

So he claims he's embarrassed in their presence and tells them to stay where they are and that he will wash himself, thus preventing loss of face for Nausicaa. Just a quick reply. Jones does argue that Odysseus is motivated by trying to ensure that Nausicaa doesn't lose face but he doesn't think Od...
by seneca2008
Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:25 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 4225

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

The text says αἰδέομαι γὰρ / γυμνοῦσθαι κούρῃσιν ἐυπλοκάμοισι μετελθών "I'm emberassed of being naked in the presence of fair-tressed young girls". As mwh pointed out, Odysseus is not really feeling shame about "being seen naked" by the girls, but he's embarrassed in an awkward situation. I don't a...
by seneca2008
Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:35 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 4225

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

I think we have lost sight of the text in our discussion about bathing. Does she ever actually offer to bathe Odysseus? Naussica says: " ἀλλὰ δότ᾿, ἀμφίπολοι, ξείνῳ βρῶσίν τε πόσιν τε, 210 λούσατέ τ᾿ ἐν ποταμῷ , ὅθ᾿ ἐπὶ σκέπας ἔστ᾿ ἀνέμοιο.” which means she instructs her slaves to bathe Odysseus in ...
by seneca2008
Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:56 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Ablative of place without preposition?
Replies: 16
Views: 1672

Re: Ablative of place without preposition?

After my first love failed me with death. That doesn’t really make sense to me either. It’s as if Dido is saying that it’s her first husband’s fault that he got murdered by her brother. Rather a selfish woman if that’s what she means. The original line from Virgil makes is perhaps easier to underst...
by seneca2008
Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:32 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Prayer from Iliad 7
Replies: 3
Views: 782

Re: Prayer from Iliad 7

I agree with Leaf, that the theme here is the tournament, the one on one contest to determine who is the better fighter, but really no more than that. I prefer the complexity which Nagy sees ("The best of Achaeans" p31-2). Ajax is second to Achilles yet Hektor cannot defeat him so this duel presage...
by seneca2008
Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:01 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Latin authors
Replies: 8
Views: 899

Re: Latin authors

I’m sure someone else has asked this but I’m not really in the mood to scroll through the endless topics of this forum. I think people here are very happy to help if you ask focussed questions and show that you have done some work at least in answering your own question. Announcing at the beginning...
by seneca2008
Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:32 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 186-210
Replies: 26
Views: 2799

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 186-210

seneca2008 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:10 am Indeed we do although I am not sure what it really adds to our discussion of Xenia. Perhaps I misunderstood your original post. In my mind this ran: I don't think there was any misunderstanding. I did not mean to be dismissive of your post but it seemed ...
by seneca2008
Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:10 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 186-210
Replies: 26
Views: 2799

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 186-210

It's worth noting that we don't just have the narrative here but also Odysseus' own interpretation of this event later at 7.292-6: τὴν ἱκέτευσʼ· ἡ δʼ οὔ τι νοήματος ἤμβροτεν ἐσθλοῦ, ὡς οὐκ ἂν ἔλποιο νεώτερον ἀντιάσαντα ἐρξέμεν· αἰεὶ γάρ τε νεώτεροι ἀφραδέουσιν. ἥ μοι σῖτον ἔδωκεν ἅλις ἠδʼ αἴθοπα οἶ...
by seneca2008
Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:11 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 186-210
Replies: 26
Views: 2799

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 186-210

Are your thoughts on the crossover between the liminal and the littoral your own observation or are you referring to something specific? The idea I am using here is based on my reading of the structuralist approach I encountered as an undergraduate reading for example "Myth and Tragedy" by Jean-Pie...
by seneca2008
Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:46 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: And another question regarding Hillard and Botting’s elem. exercises.
Replies: 13
Views: 1278

Re: And another question regarding Hillard and Botting’s elem. exercises.

Scroll down to the footnote. I don't think we can always say that the dative with mitto, fero, and the like are "surely" datives of interest. I couldn't get the link to work so can't read the footnote. Thanks for fleshing out your thinking on abstract/concrete. I am not someone who gets overly exci...
by seneca2008
Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:27 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 186-210
Replies: 26
Views: 2799

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 186-210

I wonder if the role of guest-friendship discussed here has been gender blind? Is Nausicaa really in a position to offer guest-friendship? How could she reciprocate having no oikos of her own like all the other women (as opposed to gods and Demi-gods) in the Odyssey. My doubts about this have been f...
by seneca2008
Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:52 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: And another question regarding Hillard and Botting’s elem. exercises.
Replies: 13
Views: 1278

Re: And another question regarding Hillard and Botting’s elem. exercises.

@barry Perhaps my contribution was not as clear as it could have been. why does the first sentence use the dative case for the indirect object but the second sentence is expressing place to which for the indirect object when each sentence is practically the same with the exception of the main verb T...
by seneca2008
Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:55 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: And another question regarding Hillard and Botting’s elem. exercises.
Replies: 13
Views: 1278

Re: And another question regarding Hillard and Botting’s elem. exercises.

Is that what makes the difference here on whether the indirect object will be in the dative case or expressed as place to which? The infinitive is the same in both sentences; and so is the direct object. Or did the answer key get one answer wrong? I think there has been a misunderstanding here. In ...
by seneca2008
Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:54 am
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Roman stylus (c. AD 70) from London
Replies: 2
Views: 717

Re: Roman stylus (c. AD 70) from London

Some context from the Guardian: "It sounds just like the kind of joke that is ubiquitous in today’s cheap-and-cheerful souvenir industry: “I went to Rome and all I got you was this lousy pen.” But the tongue-in-cheek inscription recently deciphered on a cheap writing implement during excavations in ...
by seneca2008
Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:30 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: No Such Thing as a Stupid Question
Replies: 29
Views: 3306

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: No Such Thing as a Stupid Question

mwh wrote: ↑Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:41 pm How does Odysseus know what Artemis looks like? Scamandrius, who learned how to hunt from Artemis, described her in his dying words to Menelaus who passed it on to Odysseus. "υἱὸν δὲ Στροφίοιο Σκαμάνδριον, αἵμονα θήρης, Ἀτρεΐδης Μενέλαος ἕλ᾿ ἔγχεϊ ὀξυόεντι, ἐσθ...
by seneca2008
Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:47 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὅτι + optative
Replies: 12
Views: 1423

Re: ὅτι + optative

Again, with just a handful of examples from the same work, it's difficult to tell. Is this just a feature of Xenophon's narrative style? Perhaps it would be helpful to see the notes to 41.13 : Note 1: The optative is the more common construction throughout classical prose (discounting indicatives w...
by seneca2008
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:56 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Wilson's Odyssey - again
Replies: 16
Views: 1893

Re: Wilson's Odyssey - again

Wilson or Pope can write Homer-inspired poetry, and use "voice" for αυτη, if we accept that it's not really translation. But seeing certain people, who really are capable of better if they'll put forth the effort, not notice that the Greek says something different, because apparently they are readi...
by seneca2008
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:43 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Wilson's Odyssey - again
Replies: 16
Views: 1893

Re: Wilson's Odyssey - again

One of the things that makes Textkit work is a dedication to the Greek and Latin languages. Translations are a subject of commentary, but what we are here to engage with is the original language, which we try understand correctly and fluently. In furtherance of this, I sometimes try to provide a bi...
by seneca2008
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:33 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Wilson's Odyssey - again
Replies: 16
Views: 1893

Re: Wilson's Odyssey - again

seanjonesbw wrote:seneca2008 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:40 am
What exactly is left to be desired here? A curious Freudian expression.
Easy tiger.
Point taken! :D
by seneca2008
Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:01 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: accusative of possession??
Replies: 6
Views: 764

Re: accusative of possession??

...."per mediam vallem ipsam" I don't know that I would ever have read that as "of the valley". I would instead have translated it: through the middle valley itself (as if there was more than two valleys to choose from). Why does valley seem to act like the genitive even though it is in the accusat...
by seneca2008
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:40 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Wilson's Odyssey - again
Replies: 16
Views: 1893

Re: Wilson's Odyssey - again

I'm afraid I'm can't really engage with you on the literary merits of various English translations. I don't think that they tend to have much literary merit in general. Your second sentence contradicts your first! Sean was asking you to engage with other poetry which informs his reception of Wilson...
by seneca2008
Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:45 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140
Replies: 29
Views: 3223

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140

seneca2008 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:21 am I am not objecting to any translation. There’s the difference between us. You object to none because they’re all acts of reception. I object to all because they all distort the Greek. Traduttori traditori. In general yes. But in this specific case I was ...
by seneca2008
Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:37 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Wilson's Odyssey - again
Replies: 16
Views: 1893

Re: Wilson's Odyssey - again

Wilson calls attention to her gender in every interview, and specifically says that this is why we should read her translation, because she pays special attention to things that male translators miss. This is simply untrue. I have heard her complain that this is all journalists want to talk to her ...
by seneca2008
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:44 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὅτι + optative
Replies: 12
Views: 1423

Re: ὅτι + optative

In English, the distinction in the Greek identified by CGCG can be approximated by shifting between direct and indirect speech: "The scouts who had been sent ahead said, 'They're not horsemen.' Rather, they said, they were yoke-animals grazing there." "The women answered he wasn't there. 'No [ἀλλ᾿]...
by seneca2008
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:02 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140
Replies: 29
Views: 3223

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140

The bit just after he's boffed Polyphemus in the eye is a good example of what I mean. I would take this as an instance of laughing at the distress of one's enemies, but I can see that it can be interpreted as Odysseus being very self satisfied. Halliwell (Greek Laughter 2008) makes the point in co...
by seneca2008
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:02 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140
Replies: 29
Views: 3223

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140

Of these, Wilson's error is surprising to me, given her chick thing . Thank you again for pointing it out. I don't regard it as an error and I don't like your language. You may want to be careful with that web app. It's wrong here, and misinformed you. Thank you. I fear whatever the shortcomings of...
by seneca2008
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:47 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140
Replies: 29
Views: 3223

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140

Odysseus seems to me to fulfil the Jungian role of the trickster much better than that of the hero, and the Odyssey sets up a series of challenges which he overcomes through his smarts and charm, flouting normal rules of courageous action (even though he is ‘brave’ when he needs to be). I am intere...
by seneca2008
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:21 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140
Replies: 29
Views: 3223

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140

Seneca was objecting to Pope's version (I think) with ἀϋτή as "voice". Unless he was thinking of another translator. I am not objecting to any translation. This is the only occurrence of ἀϋτή in the Odyssey as compared to 24 in the Iliad (according to the Chicago Homer analysis) and this informs ho...
by seneca2008
Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:00 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὅτι + optative
Replies: 12
Views: 1423

Re: ὅτι + optative

This from the Cambridge Grammar might help. There is a lot more explanatory material but I won't paste it here because it takes too long to correct the Greek . 41.13 In those cases in which the reporter has a choice, there is a nuanced difference between retaining the mood of direct speech in histor...
by seneca2008
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:25 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140
Replies: 29
Views: 3223

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140

119 “ὤ μοι ἐγώ, τέων αὖτε βροτῶν ἐς γαῖαν ἱκάνω; 120 ἦ ῥ ̓ οἵ γ ̓ ὑβρισταί τε καὶ ἄγριοι οὐδὲ δίκαιοι, 121 ἦε φιλόξεινοι καί σφιν νόος ἐστὶ θεουδής; 122 ὥς τέ με κουράων ἀμφήλυθε θῆλυς ἀϋτή· 123 νυμφάων, αἳ ἔχουσ ̓ ὀρέων αἰπεινὰ κάρηνα 124 καὶ πηγὰς ποταμῶν καὶ πίσεα ποιήεντα. I don't find any trac...
by seneca2008
Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:18 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140
Replies: 29
Views: 3223

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140

I don't want to seem like I'm ragging on Odysseus here. He's a rich tapestry that you find new things in whenever you return to him. It's just interesting that he seems to appeal to modern sensibilities more than to ancient ones (if Attic representations and survival of manuscripts are any yardstic...
by seneca2008
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:35 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Catilinarian Conspiracy - Did it Really Happen?
Replies: 2
Views: 759

Re: Catilinarian Conspiracy - Did it Really Happen?

It seems to me there are a few hypotheses that are at least as plausible as the Catiline's conspiracy really having happened: Although I think your post is a provocation it does raise a few interesting questions. I don't find your alternative suggestions the least bit persuasive. You would be on sa...
by seneca2008
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:19 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: JACT: Exercise 1H-J4. accents on ἐστί
Replies: 5
Views: 659

Re: JACT: Exercise 1H-J4. accents on ἐστί

I was taught Greek initially by someone who ignored the accents. This was a disaster which I never really recovered from in my formal studies. So I am using Probert to remedy this defect. I find it very clear and informative. Probert gives some other interesting info quoting Herodian, Hermann's rule...
by seneca2008
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:50 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: JACT: Exercise 1H-J4. accents on ἐστί
Replies: 5
Views: 659

Re: JACT: Exercise 1H-J4. accents on ἐστί

Probert "A new short guide to the Accentuation of Ancient Greek" p 144 says: "The form ἐστί, normally enclitic, has a fully accented variant ἔστι. This fully accented variant is used at the beginning of a verse sentence or clause and when the word expresses existence or possibility ...." Hope this h...
by seneca2008
Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:52 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Apuleius, Metamorphoses 1.16
Replies: 7
Views: 980

Re: Apuleius, Metamorphoses 1.16

The previous lines are: Iam iam, grabatule,’ inquam ‘animo meo carissime, qui mecum tot aerumnas exanclasti conscius et arbiter quae nocte gesta sunt, quem solum in meo reatu testem innocentiae citare possum, tu mihi ad inferos festinanti sumministra telum salutare.’ The subject of intextus is grabu...
by seneca2008
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:40 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118
Replies: 26
Views: 3995

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118

sean wrote:The bikini ladies are cool, though. What are they doing in the top left?
The first figure seems to have some weights. Perhaps training? The second figure has a discus.