Search found 1665 matches

by Hylander
Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:10 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Relative of characteristic versus Indirect Discourse
Replies: 11
Views: 1146

Re: Relative of characteristic versus Indirect Discourse

Huic, cum proelio dimicare constituerunt, ea quae bello ceperint plerumque devovent... (6:17). The subjunctive of "informal" indirect discourse here, ceperint , seems to depend not on implicit discourse inherent in constituerunt, , but rather on implicit discourse inherent in devovent . Caesar imag...
by Hylander
Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:18 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Are πτοία and πτερόν etymologically related?
Replies: 15
Views: 1171

Re: Are πτοία and πτερόν etymologically related?

I feel like we must be thinking about different people.
Reread Reich's chapter on India and you'll see what I mean,
by Hylander
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:04 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Lysistrata Materials
Replies: 11
Views: 1265

Re: Lysistrata Materials

There’s a 2014 edition by Alan Sommerstein in the Aris & Phillips Classical Texts series. Text, facing page translation and notes with English lemmata.
by Hylander
Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:04 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Are πτοία and πτερόν etymologically related?
Replies: 15
Views: 1171

Re: Are πτοία and πτερόν etymologically related?

Reich goes to great length to avoid saying outright that he thinks the hypothesis advanced by Indian researchers and Hindu nationalists that the IE languages originated in India is nonsense. He needs the cooperation of Indian researchers for his project, and he goes out of his way to avoid offending...
by Hylander
Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:44 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Are πτοία and πτερόν etymologically related?
Replies: 15
Views: 1171

Re: Are πτοία and πτερόν etymologically related?

As we flutter away from the original post, the "non-IE" section of Table 1 raises the question of whether the Sanskrit column is blank not because the Germanic, Slavic, Latin and Greek branches took words from pre-IE Neolithic inhabitants of Europe but because Sanskrit or its ancestor substituted wo...
by Hylander
Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:08 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: First post
Replies: 4
Views: 636

Re: First post

splitting' two syntactically related words with a word of a different case in a way that would sound completely unnatural in English. . . . we would say something like "Rerum de natura" if we were projecting our own word order onto Latin Actually, in some instances we use the same word order in Eng...
by Hylander
Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:18 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?
Replies: 15
Views: 1437

Re: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?

Seems more or less consistent with Smyth.

Can anyone find the relevant discussion in Schwyzer?
by Hylander
Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:38 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?
Replies: 15
Views: 1437

Re: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?

Until I see further evidence, I'm going to assume that Smyth has made an over-broad generalization about a phenomenon which in fact only applies to a couple of words, and only in Thucydides and Xenophon. I wouldn't make that assumption. There may be epigraphic evidence. You could consult the morpho...
by Hylander
Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:32 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Relative of characteristic versus Indirect Discourse
Replies: 11
Views: 1146

Re: Relative of characteristic versus Indirect Discourse

I think the best argument that this is not a relative clause of characteristic is that in DBG 1.1 the same construction with ea quae ad ____ with a form of pertineo takes the indicative: atque ea, quae ad effeminandos animos pertinent, important Good catch! The clause in DBG 1.1 is obviously Caesar...
by Hylander
Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:25 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?
Replies: 15
Views: 1437

Re: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?

in Attic would be κατακεχύνται, I think. Yes, you're right for stems ending in a vowel. I stand corrected. But for stems ending in a consonant the periphrastic form of the third plural perf. medio-passive is used: participle + εισι. The perf./plup. forms in -νται, ντο are the result of analogical l...
by Hylander
Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:46 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?
Replies: 15
Views: 1437

Re: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?

κατακεχύαται -- this is the normal 3rd pers. perf. medio-passive form in Herodotus, reflecting the normal reflex of syllabic */n̥/ in attested Greek. Attic uses a periphrastic form, κεχυμενοι, -αι -α εισι. so the Ionic/Herodotean form may look strange.

τοιόσδε τις -- "somewhat like this:" I think.
by Hylander
Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:39 pm
Forum: Latin Poetry
Topic: Latin translation by T.S.Evans of an English poem
Replies: 12
Views: 2597

Re: Latin translation by T.S.Evans of an English poem

Fixed ego et tu , and also substituted meant remeantque for eunt exeuntque . Bravo? This is ludicrously un-Latin, though tu ne quaesieris came pre-fabricated. I bogged down when I got to "muttering retreats of restless nights in one-night cheap hotels". I'm sure T.E. Evans could find a way to put T....
by Hylander
Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:23 am
Forum: Latin Poetry
Topic: Latin translation by T.S.Evans of an English poem
Replies: 12
Views: 2597

Re: Latin translation by T.S.Evans of an English poem

Eamus igitur, ego et tu,
cum vesper contra caelum panditur
sicut aeger in defectu animi iacens in mensa.

O tu ne quaesieris quid sit;
eamus visum.

In cubiculo mulieres meant remeantque
loquentes de Michaele Angelo.
by Hylander
Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:31 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Relative of characteristic versus Indirect Discourse
Replies: 11
Views: 1146

Re: Relative of characteristic versus Indirect Discourse

Does indirect discourse reading imply that Caesar has some reason to doubt that the preparations are objectively necessary. No, it simply reflects what Caesar thought was going through their minds in making their decision -- their thinking. My vote would be for indirect discourse, but I can see an ...
by Hylander
Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:40 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plato R.2.382 ψεύδεσθαι active/passive
Replies: 4
Views: 600

Re: Plato R.2.382 ψεύδεσθαι active/passive

To my knowledge, no English-language commentary on the Republic has been published since Adam, which dates to about 1900, apart from this: http://www.onplatosrepublic.com/ I have a copy left over from my undergrad days. Adam is very good in many respects, but I think very dated (though I'm not at al...
by Hylander
Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:58 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: τὴν μὲν τῶν ἐπιστολῶν ἐγὼ ἒγραψα, τὴν δὲ οὒ
Replies: 2
Views: 387

Re: τὴν μὲν τῶν ἐπιστολῶν ἐγὼ ἒγραψα, τὴν δὲ οὒ

Out of context, but . . .

τὴν μὲν τῶν ἐπιστολῶν ἐγὼ ἒγραψα, τὴν δὲ οὒ[κ ἒγραψα]

(It should be elided: τὴν μὲν τῶν ἐπιστολῶν ἐγὼ ἒγραψα, τὴν δ'οὒ . . .)
by Hylander
Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:45 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ἁσμένως
Replies: 4
Views: 551

Re: ἁσμένως

A less trivial question is whether the adverb has displaced the adjective. That would leave ἀφιγμένος ἄσμενος side by side, where the two words with the same ending (though different accentuation) have different syntactic functions: . . . οἷον δὲ διὰ χρόνου ἀφιγμένος ἄσμενος ᾖα ἐπὶ τὰς συνήθεις δια...
by Hylander
Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:04 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plato R.2.382 ψεύδεσθαι active/passive
Replies: 4
Views: 600

Re: Plato R.2.382 ψεύδεσθαι active/passive

ἥκιστα ἂν δέξαιντο - "would least admit to" rather than my "would least accept". Is he saying this is δείκνυμι? ' 'No, it's δεχομαι, as you thought, and your "accept" is right, too, and not inconsistent with the Loeb translation, "accept". It's just a matter of a different way of putting it into En...
by Hylander
Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:12 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Writing 'Ancient Greek' in Ancient Greek
Replies: 8
Views: 921

Re: Writing 'Ancient Greek' in Ancient Greek

So it would simply be Ἑλλάς γλῶσσα.
by Hylander
Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:02 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Writing 'Ancient Greek' in Ancient Greek
Replies: 8
Views: 921

Re: Writing 'Ancient Greek' in Ancient Greek

Logically, you can't write "ancient Geek" in ancient Greek because no one in ancient Greece would have referred to the contemporary language as "ancient Greek" and no one in ancient Greece knew of any earlier stage of the language.
by Hylander
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:30 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Some questions for Demosthenes, Against Aristogiton 1.
Replies: 25
Views: 1911

Re: Some questions for Demosthenes, Against Aristogiton 1.

This activity is consuming a lot of time -- to figure out what the answer is for questions that I'm not totally incompetent to answer, sometimes to dig out texts and read them for broader context, to make sure I'm not mistaken so as not to disseminate too much misinformation on the internet, to prov...
by Hylander
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:21 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Some questions for Demosthenes, Against Aristogiton 1.
Replies: 25
Views: 1911

Re: Some questions for Demosthenes, Against Aristogiton 1.

προῆχε -- See Smyth 569-571: 569. Aspirated Second Perfects.—In many stems a final π or β changes to φ: a final κ or γ changes to χ. (φ and χ here imitate verb-stems in φ and χ, as τρέφω, ὀρύττω.) κόπτω (κοπ-) cut κέκοφα, πέμπ-ω send πέπομφα, βλάπτω (βλαβ-) injure βέβλαφα, τρί_βω (τρι_β-) rub τέτρι...
by Hylander
Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:53 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Some questions for Demosthenes, Against Aristogiton 1.
Replies: 25
Views: 1911

Re: Some questions for Demosthenes, Against Aristogiton 1.

25.3 You've figured this out. 25.7 ᾧ δ᾽ ἂν ὑμεῖς πρόσθησθε, οὗτος ἰσχυρὸς γίγνεται. The antecedent of ᾧ is οὗτος. προστι;ημαι - "side with". "Whoever you side with becomes strong." Again, an indefinite conditional relative clause that functions like the protasis of a condition. ἂν + subjunctive. 25....
by Hylander
Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:30 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Some questions for Demosthenes, Against Aristogiton 1.
Replies: 25
Views: 1911

Re: Some questions for Demosthenes, Against Aristogiton 1.

I haven't looked up the sentence yet, but δεικνυμι typically takes an accusative + participle when it introduces indirect discourse, and that appears to be what ὄντα τὰ τῶν νόμων δίκαια is doing here.
by Hylander
Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:05 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plato Rep. 361e middle for passive futures
Replies: 3
Views: 457

Re: Plato Rep. 361e middle for passive futures

Regarding future middle vs passive, see Smyth 807. γνώσεται is future middle with active meaning. γνώσεται ὅτι οὐκ εἶναι δίκαιον ἀλλὰ δοκεῖν δεῖ ἐθέλειν. "He will learn that one [not 'he'] must wish not to be just but rather to seem just". δεῖ is impersonal. It would take a dative of the person if i...
by Hylander
Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:18 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Questions on the "Greek Anthology"(espec. Loeb and "others?")
Replies: 5
Views: 839

Re: Questions on the "Greek Anthology"(espec. Loeb and "others?")

You can rest assured that the new Loeb Greek Anthology is not, and subsequent volumes will not be, bowdlerized. That was one reason for the new series. Even by the 1960s, Fordyce's Catullus was greeted with scorn (even though it was apparently not his idea to omit poems deemed unsuitable for young r...
by Hylander
Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:02 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Philoctetes, questions.
Replies: 9
Views: 989

Re: Philoctetes, questions.

Neoptolemus is reminding the audience of the back-story of Philoctetes' wound. P. unwittingly stumbled into the sacred place of the nymph Chryse on the island of Chryse, and it was she who caused a serpent to bite him. Or something like that. And there was a prophecy that Troy could not be taken unt...
by Hylander
Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:46 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: How is the declension of ἠχώ categorised?
Replies: 2
Views: 344

Re: How is the declension of ἠχώ categorised?

3rd (consonant) declension. Stem originally in -οι. See Smyth 279: 279. Stems in οι, with nominative in -ώ, turn ι into unwritten ι-glide (y) before the endings beginning with a vowel. ἡ πειθώ persuasion is thus declined: N. πειθώ. G. πειθοῦς (πειθό-ος). D. πειθοῖ (πειθό-ι). A. πειθώ (πειθό-α). V. π...
by Hylander
Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:02 am
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Questions on the "Greek Anthology"(espec. Loeb and "others?")
Replies: 5
Views: 839

Re: Questions on the "Greek Anthology"(espec. Loeb and "others?")

The old 1917 five-volume Loeb edition is about as complete as it can be. The English translations are somewhat fustian and the good stuff is translated into Latin or Italian in order to spare youthful innocence. The commentary is minimal. A new Loeb edition consisting of an extensive revision of the...
by Hylander
Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:31 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Philoctetes, questions.
Replies: 9
Views: 989

Re: Philoctetes, questions.

shouldn't τί be heavy, since it is followed by two consonants? Mute (π, τ, κ, φ, θ, χ) + liquid (λ, ρ, sometimes μ, ν) clusters are sometimes but not always treated as making the preceding syllable heavy/long even if it contains a short vowel.. Really the underlying issue is whether the syllable in...
by Hylander
Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:51 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Iliad B353
Replies: 4
Views: 807

Re: Iliad B353

Thanks. Your citations clearly show that 353 is built around the formulaic σήματα φαίνων, which is associated with both ἐπι-/εν-δέξια and ἐναίσιμα. And again, with Zeus as logical (if not strictly syntactic) agent in 353, and the antecedent three lines earlier, the nominative is natural and the anac...
by Hylander
Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:12 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: 'nullus' in Greek
Replies: 3
Views: 514

Re: 'nullus' in Greek

Does this mean there just isn't a nullus equivalent in Greek? Nothing that is exactly equivalent in all situations. οπλων ουχ ευρεθησεται ουδ’ ἕν is more emphatic than nulla arma . Also, is it really fine to use εἰ μή without a verb? Yes, but a verb is more or less "understood" -- the main verb of ...
by Hylander
Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:58 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Hello from Corpus Christi (TX)
Replies: 4
Views: 670

Re: Hello from Corpus Christi (TX)

Hello, Terry! As a retired professor of theater, have you thought of learning Greek instead of or in addition to Latin, to gain access to what is one of the pinnacles of Greek and indeed world literature, namely, Greek drama? I would say that Greek is more difficult than Latin in the learning phase,...
by Hylander
Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:50 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Iliad B353
Replies: 4
Views: 807

Re: Iliad B353

Call it a lapse, call it an anacoluthon, call it a metrical fudge, it's all the same. The two intervening lines make the audience/reader and possibly the poet too forget that syntactically the two participles should be unmetrical accusatives. It would not be the only departure from strict syntax in ...
by Hylander
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:49 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Another Mistake by a German Professor?
Replies: 5
Views: 659

Re: Another Mistake by a German Professor?

I will venture this with considerable trepidation and uncertainty: Isn't it an unreal condition in the past time? "The same thing would perhaps have happened . . . " You probably want the aorist συνεβη. See Smyth 2305, 2306. Or is it "the same thing would be happening"? But it's hard for me to read ...
by Hylander
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:07 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὁσάκις ἂν
Replies: 30
Views: 1900

Re: ὁσάκις ἂν

Yes, Bedwere's emendation is palmary.
by Hylander
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:15 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: A sentence from Athenaze
Replies: 12
Views: 1426

Re: A sentence from Athenaze

I see what you mean. ωστε is a fossilized form: the relative adverb ως + τε épique, isn't it?

By the way, mwh, did you see my post in this thread?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68752

I'm still debating with myself whether it's right.
by Hylander
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:11 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: A sentence from Athenaze
Replies: 12
Views: 1426

Re: A sentence from Athenaze

I don't think the subject of a clause of natural result has to be indefinite. E.g., I've seen such clauses refer to specific persons. The subject doesn't have to be indefinite but in this case, τὸν ἀκούοντα is indefinite in the sense that there is no specific hearer in mind. I should have made it c...
by Hylander
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:54 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὁσάκις ἂν
Replies: 30
Views: 1900

Re: ὁσάκις ἂν

Joel, I added my post after mwh's summation because I thought it would be a good idea to alert readers of this thread to the possibility that 18th century textbooks may not be entirely reliable as to the fine points of Greek grammar. I think that's what mwh was alluding to when he wrote that "it may...
by Hylander
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:01 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὁσάκις ἂν
Replies: 30
Views: 1900

Re: ὁσάκις ἂν

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that Greek syntax (as well as other aspects of Greek grammar and lexicography and Latin grammar, too) was placed on a much sounder footing over the course of the 19th century by many specialized studies that took a minutely detailed, and laborious, look ...