Search found 2969 matches

by jeidsath
Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:40 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 65
Views: 2597

Re: Vacation reading

δ was fun, and I've come to terms with the gods fixing everything for the good guys. But if Athena is a god, why is she so bad at disguises? Mentor isn't fooling anybody, apparently. Proteus reminded me of a number of fairy tales, including the ballad of Tam Lin: https://www.bartleby.com/243/2.html ...
by jeidsath
Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:27 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: exercise in Morwood, query
Replies: 16
Views: 737

Re: exercise in Morwood, query

"τὰς ἐρωτικάς". And it becomes all too clear why the meter was marred by a prissy schoolmaster.
by jeidsath
Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:34 pm
Forum: Latin Poetry
Topic: Horace Odes I.24
Replies: 8
Views: 578

Re: Horace Odes I.24

https://laudatortemporisacti.blogspot.com/2019/08/the-emperors-chubby-court-jester.html The Emperor's Chubby Court-Jester Theodore Ziolkowski, "Uses and Abuses of Horace: His Reception since 1935 in Germany and Anglo-America," International Journal of the Classical Tradition 12.2 (Fall, 2005) 183-21...
by jeidsath
Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:41 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 65
Views: 2597

Re: Vacation reading

I think that it's fair to say that I'm missing a great deal. We could even quantify that exactly with reading comprehension tests if anybody cared. But the second read-through would give me a higher score on such a hypothetical test. And for the third read-through, I'll only look up the very few wor...
by jeidsath
Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:12 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 65
Views: 2597

Re: Vacation reading

My youngest got moved into her older sister's room last night, and it looks like I get to have a few wakeful nights reading the Odyssey during the transition. Lucky me. καὶ νῦν εἰ τί πού ἐστι, πίθοιό μοι· οὐ γὰρ ἐγώ γε τέρπομ᾽ ὀδυρόμενος μεταδόρπιος· ἀλλὰ καὶ ἠώς ἔσσεται ἠριγένεια, νεμεσσῶμαί γε μὲν...
by jeidsath
Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:20 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: exercise in Morwood, query
Replies: 16
Views: 737

Re: exercise in Morwood, query

θήρευε - θήρ is a beast, a quarry, so "hunt" or "chase" τὰς ἡδονὰς τὰς μετὰ δόξης - literally "the 'in conjunction with good opinion' pleasures". Specifying the pleasures being sought, not how they are hunted. LSJ mentions "ὅτι οὔτ᾽ ἂν ὁ ἐπιεικὴς πάνυ τι ῥᾳδίως γῆρας μετὰ πενίας ἐνέγκοι" from the Pl...
by jeidsath
Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:46 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Homeric psychology
Replies: 18
Views: 906

Re: Homeric psychology

And surely Kalchas is “sincere,” while wanting to forestall Ag’s anger I was being unclear. I meant that a king's ἔχειν κότον after a temporary καταπέψαι of his χόλον is a predictable sort of insincerity. In shame societies, people are insincere apologizers, but they are predictably insincere apolo...
by jeidsath
Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:19 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Homeric psychology
Replies: 18
Views: 906

Re: Homeric psychology

Paul Derouda wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:19 pm
What I meant was for example those endless discussions we have on whether apologies were sincere.
κρείσσων γὰρ βασιλεὺς ὅτε χώσεται ἀνδρὶ χέρηϊ:
εἴ περ γάρ τε χόλον γε καὶ αὐτῆμαρ καταπέψῃ,
ἀλλά τε καὶ μετόπισθεν ἔχει κότον, ὄφρα τελέσσῃ,
ἐν στήθεσσιν ἑοῖσι

But he is predictably insincere.
by jeidsath
Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:48 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 65
Views: 2597

Re: Vacation reading

Well, the vacation is over, and though distracted by hiking and daughters and dunking myself in the lake from a canoe, I made it as far as Athena's parting in γ. I'll try to continue as I find time though. No, I don't have time for much of the secondary Homeric literature. I appreciate the use of Ho...
by jeidsath
Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:40 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 65
Views: 2597

Re: Vacation reading

...a thread where everyone does a blind translation of a few passages by themselves... What you suggest is a good idea, and such projects have already been done. One such still active thread about Odyssey 6 is here: Odyssey 6 Reading Group . The "blind translation" is the operative part of the sugg...
by jeidsath
Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:19 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 65
Views: 2597

Re: Vacation reading

Good, that's what I understood for the context. I had gotten used to breezing through lately, but the description of the return took me at least 5 times through, if not more.
by jeidsath
Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:30 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 65
Views: 2597

Re: Vacation reading

In γ, what exactly are Menelaos and Agamemon arguing about in Nestor's account? I don't know ερυκακεειν in βουλετο γαρ ρα / λαον ερυκακεειν ρεξαι θ ιερας εκατομβας, but it sounds like the difference is that Agamemnon wants to sacrifice before he goes to appease (? - εξακεσαιτο) the δεινον χολον of A...
by jeidsath
Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:07 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 65
Views: 2597

Re: Vacation reading

I was out hiking most of the day, but made it through β in the evening. Telemachus' speeches were fairly clear, but I didn't entirely understand all of the suitors' arguments at the assembly and will have to re-read eventually. I understood the bit about Penelope making the promise about the weaving...
by jeidsath
Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:25 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 65
Views: 2597

Re: Vacation reading

I wouldn't worry too much about falling into error -- especially on Textkit's only Vacation Reading thread -- language errors are self-correcting and commentary errors are self-perpetuating. * 433: Ah, "wife" makes more sense. When I read it, I thought that he was avoiding the "bile of the woman" by...
by jeidsath
Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:38 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 65
Views: 2597

Re: Vacation reading

In β 52-54, is it saying that Penelope's father, Icarius, is giving approval to every suitor who comes, and hence the problem?
by jeidsath
Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:11 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 65
Views: 2597

Re: Vacation reading

The beginning of β answered some of my questions on the conclave. Re-reading the very start of α -- for my daughter's bedtime story; she doesn't complain as long as I give an English paraphrase translation as I go, though I censor a bit) -- I saw 36 γῆμ᾽ ἄλοχον μνηστήν, and 39 μήτε μνάασθαι ἄκοιτιν,...
by jeidsath
Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:47 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 65
Views: 2597

Re: Vacation reading

Well maybe Textkit has gotten a bit stale lately. And sometimes I feel like I'm as bad with the LSJ as any KJV-only backwoods fundamentalist. "If Liddell said it, I believe it", etc. With luck I'll survive a 4-day withdrawal period. Meanwhile, I'm through α. I had to read every page about 4 times, o...
by jeidsath
Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:20 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 65
Views: 2597

Re: Vacation reading

Dont worry I have no intention of looking things up for you which you can perfectly well do for yourself. Good. At its best this board makes it possible for a bunch of scattered people to be digitally in the same room together, and imagine if we were all resorting to the LSJ or Google in a conversa...
by jeidsath
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:00 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 65
Views: 2597

Vacation reading

I'm going to be up in northern Michigan for a few days, relaxing from work. I thought that I would bring along "Homerus Odyssea Martin L. West (ed.)", and see how much I could get through without a dictionary or other aids. I haven't read more than snatches of the Odyssey since I was a teenager read...
by jeidsath
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:06 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: just signed on and need to introduce myself
Replies: 1
Views: 242

Re: just signed on and need to introduce myself

Welcome!

You have a few years advantage on Cato for starting Greek, though he did speak pretty good Latin for a politician.
by jeidsath
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:21 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: μὴ φύλαξ τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ μου εἰμὶ ἐγώ;
Replies: 3
Views: 321

Re: μὴ φύλαξ τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ μου εἰμὶ ἐγώ;

Well φύλαξ is probably better "guard". μου is strange, and probably only there because it's transliterating Hebrew, but comes across as emphatic. ἐγώ is very emphatic, especially given its position.

μή is a denial, and the question expects a negative response.
by jeidsath
Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:34 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Cambridge Grammar for Homeric -σαν to -ν
Replies: 1
Views: 244

Cambridge Grammar for Homeric -σαν to -ν

I looked up διέτμαγεν in Smyth this morning. It turns out to be 3rd pl. aor. pass., for διετμάγησαν, behaving like μι-verbs in Homer. See Smyth 464 e. D. As an experiment, I looked for the same information in the Cambridge Grammar. The chapter on Ionic and dialect forms includes 25.39 on -νται and -...
by jeidsath
Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:01 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Videos or audio which teach proper pronunciation and pitch?
Replies: 8
Views: 2616

Re: Videos or audio which teach proper pronunciation and pitch?

In fact, Tomin is the only person I've ever heard who is both consistent on the stress accent and vowel length. Usually stress accent people murder short stressed vowels -- you can't tell their ό from their ω from their ῶ -- but Tomin does not. Maybe because he is Czech? He is not quite as good as L...
by jeidsath
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:11 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plato dictionary
Replies: 4
Views: 635

Re: Plato dictionary

Here's a thread with a link to the history of the failed Oxford Plato Lexicon: https://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/viewtopic.php?t=68643 The last part of Whitaker's article (linked there) discusses some of what came out in the 20th century. Various concordances, but nothing like what was plann...
by jeidsath
Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:30 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 3110

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

If gore was no barrier to embraces in book 22, grime should be no barrier to slaves bathing a man under their mistress' instructions in Book 6." I think we should bring up γίγνωσκε δ’ ἄρα φρεσὶ πάσας and the context before deciding the two dramatic conceptions couldn't fit one poet. And, again, it ...
by jeidsath
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:28 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 3110

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

I never realized it was always an uncertain future time, but that makes sense, now that I think of places that I've seen it. Regardless, the reason that Odysseus vocalizes for being embarrassed to strip is that he has not cleaned or oiled himself for some time. We have to add something unstated if w...
by jeidsath
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:52 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 3110

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

I still think that the αιδως here is about dirt and grime rather than nudity. (Paul, what is Finnish etiquette about a sauna right after a workout or backpacking trip? I assume people are supposed to wash themselves off first? And if they are dirty enough, might even be a bit embarrassed about washi...
by jeidsath
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:19 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: pay tribute / οισομεν ???
Replies: 5
Views: 500

Re: pay tribute / οισομεν ???

φέρω is a bit of a wild verb. Its future is οἴσω, and it has aorists ἤνεγκα/ἤνεγκον. You'll find that the LSJ has a full discussion of its forms.
by jeidsath
Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:03 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 3110

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

Paul is correct about the two words. (I really think that Scandinavians only pretend that English is not their native language. Does a language like Finnish really exist, and can anyone really understand it? I have doubts.) A person would be ashamed of his family's slave-holding past, unless he thou...
by jeidsath
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:13 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 3110

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

The one is a feeling that makes your face red and lasts for a few minutes. (Ἀστεῖόν γε, ἦ δ᾿ ὅς, ὅτι ἐρυθριᾷς, ὦ Ἱππόθαλες, καὶ ὀκνεῖς εἰπεῖν Σωκράτει τοὔνομα) The other is a social injury which can last for a lifetime. (αἰδὼς ὦ Λύκιοι: πόσε φεύγετε). They can be caused by the same thing, but often ...
by jeidsath
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:50 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Republic 2.377a
Replies: 8
Views: 716

Re: Republic 2.377a

I recommend Goodwin's Moods and Tenses 777 instead of the LSJ ειπον article, as the LSJ doesn't do more than give the gloss for the very common ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν. No, I don't disagree that τὸ ὅλον can be taken adverbially, but it felt a little flat to do so here, and leaves the somewhat surprising "τοῦ...
by jeidsath
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:15 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Republic 2.377a
Replies: 8
Views: 716

Re: Republic 2.377a

ὡς τὸ ὅλον εἰπεῖν is an idiom, or rather two idioms: ὡς . . . εἰπεῖν -- not quite English "so to speak" but it softens a categorical statement; maybe "more or less". που also softens the expression. τὸ ὅλον -- "generally", i.e. taking it as a whole (adverbial accusative). Generally, that (τοῦτο) [i...
by jeidsath
Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:33 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Republic 2.377a
Replies: 8
Views: 716

Re: Republic 2.377a

Understanding what the passage is saying should make pretty clear whether τοῦτο is adverbial or has an antecedent, and what τὸ ὅλον is doing, or whether it is indirect discourse or not. It is hard to claim more than a general gist if we can't answer these questions. But it does seem straightforward ...
by jeidsath
Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:19 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 3110

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

ἦ γὰρ δηρὸν ἀπὸ χροός ἐστιν ἀλοιφή

It seemed to me that he was more ashamed by the built-up grime revealed by his nakedness than the nudity.

αἰδέομαι γὰρ γυμνοῦσθαι κούρῃσιν ἐυπλοκάμοισι μετελθών

It would be rather difficult to imagine Rhett Butler delivering this line to Scarlett's house-slaves.
by jeidsath
Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:53 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: trouble finding digital images of two codices in Greek (philos. gr. 202, Wien; I R 14 Escorial)
Replies: 2
Views: 347

Re: trouble finding digital images of two codices in Greek (philos. gr. 202, Wien; I R 14 Escorial)

The first is "Prolegomena in Aelium Aristidem". I don't know if there is an online version. Here is the catalogue record: http://data.onb.ac.at/rec/AC14451964 Does your reference for #2 have anything to do with this "Catalogue des manuscrits grecs de la bibliothèque de l'Escurial"? https://archive.o...
by jeidsath
Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:38 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: PRAYER FOR LIGHT IN ILIAD
Replies: 2
Views: 394

Re: PRAYER FOR LIGHT IN ILIAD

The quote is not from the Iliad, but from Ajax' suicide speech in Sophocles. Lines 856 - 858. σὲ δ᾽, ὦ φαεννῆς ἡμέρας τὸ νῦν σέλας, καὶ τὸν διφρευτὴν Ἥλιον προσεννέπω, πανύστατον δὴ κοὔποτ᾽ αὖθις ὕστερον. You may have better luck posting to our Open Board or Learning Greek. The Academy is usually wh...
by jeidsath
Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:23 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Through the Bosphorus in a reed boat
Replies: 3
Views: 813

Through the Bosphorus in a reed boat

All to prove Herodotus right. https://i.imgur.com/RfKty1c.png https://phys.org/news/2019-07-ancient-egypt-to-black-sea-route-adventurers.html Were the ancient Egyptians able to use reed boats to travel as far as the Black Sea thousands of years ago? A group of adventurers believe so, and will try to...
by jeidsath
Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:37 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: τίς οὖν ἡ παιδεία;
Replies: 5
Views: 752

Re: τίς οὖν ἡ παιδεία;

Contra the Loeb and Philo, I don't really think the articles are captured quite correctly. παιδεια has the article because it's "the education" they are inventing for their guardians. And I think πολλου χρονου is a definite period? Not any education invented after a long search. "this long time". Tr...
by jeidsath
Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:35 am
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Visit to Greece, especially Aegina
Replies: 11
Views: 2175

Re: Visit to Greece, especially Aegina

No. I meant that the German team simply shined ultraviolet lights on the statues to do the reconstruction, and there was no chemical reconstruction of the pigments. William Gladstone was not aware of the cell mechanics of color vision because he lived in the late 19th century. We can be fairly sure,...