Search found 3270 matches

by adrianus
Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:59 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Diomedes on Accent

Diomedes, Artis Grammaticae, Liber II, De Accentibus Accentum legem vel distinguendi vel pronuntiandi ratio vel discernendae ambiguitatis necessitas saepe conturbat. Accentus acuti nota ita / per obliquum ascendens in dexteram partem. Gravis nota ita \ a summo in obliquam dexteram partem descendens....
by adrianus
Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:35 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Keil and Priscian

I got the Keil volumes (Grammatici Latini) and had to look at them right away. It's not really what I had planned for learning Latin, but its wonderful. At first sight, it seems that Lilly is just straight Priscian (vols. II and III). Priscian talks quite a bit more about accenting the final syllabl...
by adrianus
Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:42 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Stress, accent, tone

Cantator care, I know we disagree about pitch as a marker in Latin (I think it was used as such, especially so for language instruction and grammatical illustration, and you disagree about any structural implications). We debate. I agree with you practically 100% on the last paragraph--no speech wit...
by adrianus
Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:44 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Theory, practice, Keil

Hu care, Thanks for the compliment about the research. An inability to speak or write good Latin didn't stop many in the 16th-early-17th centuries from teaching and lecturing authoritatively on the language. They were criticised, of course, by those (in the tradition of Ramus, Erasmus, Comenius, etc...
by adrianus
Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:50 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Romans 'correct'

Luci, you said Are these non grave pitch accents on the final syllables incorrect by Roman standards? Not at all (or not necessarily). A defence has been made already above. The problem is we're repeating selective quotations from the grammarians, who are often being selective themselves. Better to ...
by adrianus
Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:30 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Conference

I can't participate because I'm at a meeting for the next few hours but I would love to again. I've never used Skype, so that would be interesting. I would have to overcome nervousness about exposing how limited my Latin actually is. You see, I am a learner and not yet graduated from 16th-century La...
by adrianus
Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:46 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Response to Cantori questions

Cantator care, Responses to some of your questions: 1. The influence of the study of Greek on the interpretation of Latin pronunciation in the 16-17th centuries relates to the way late-humanist scholars can read and interpret (sometimes between the lines) the terminology and intention of classical a...
by adrianus
Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:20 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Early sources on the grave accent

Apologies to the moderator for carrying on a dialogue with myself but this information was requested earlier: Frank Abbott (1907), The Accent in Vulgar and Formal Latin?, Classical Philology,Vol. 2 No.4: 444-460 says the grammarians talk mainly about literature, not speech. Quintilian (fuller quote ...
by adrianus
Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:40 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Luci recording

Luci, I listened to your recording. What a beautiful and brilliant exposition of the materials. I found it very difficult, myself, to pronounce, in a convincing fashion, an ultimate circumflected vowel, without resorting to nailing the ultimate with a stress accent. That's why I thought I had to pro...
by adrianus
Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:02 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Changing accents

Luci, I haven't listened to your recording but will do so immediately after writing this. Why do the accents sometimes change? Because we stress words in different ways to convey different meanings. You could equally ask why the same word in a different place or sentence has no pitch accent. These a...
by adrianus
Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:16 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Early grammarians


by adrianus
Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:11 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Nice example

Irresistible example from 1627, to illustrate an ablative other than first declension differentiated by a grave stress: Ecce mordicùs apprehendit manicam meam. Etiam Ego illi dentes istos omnes euellam, si non dimittit illicò [sic? illicó]. That will do for the moment, Luci. Waiting for your obse...
by adrianus
Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:29 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

More examples

Examples from Erasmian colloquies. In ructu crepitúve ventris salutare, hominis est plùs satìs urbani. ... Heus, heus, quò properas? Resp . Rectâ Lovanium. ... Frobenium jubebis meo nomine salvere plurimúm. Erasmiolum item meâ causâ salutabis diligenter. Tum matri Gertudi quàm potes officio...
by adrianus
Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:50 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Prosody and accent

1688 example: G. Tenésne memoriâ praelectionem? I. Propemodum. G. Visne repetamus uná? [corrected in the original from an earlier edition's ‘unà’--not by me] I. Maximé. [corrected in the original from an earlier edition's ‘maximè’--not be me] G. Incipe igitur ... I. Jam errâsti, incip...
by adrianus
Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:59 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Prosodic example

1667 example illustrating sentence prosodic pitch emphasis (stress and destress) as distinct from individual word stress: R. Rogâsti veniam? P. Non rogavi, sed tântisper expecta me dum eo rogatum. ... R. Quo vultu te praeceptori excepit? N. Hilari sané. R. Eodem me quoque excéperat. N. Non solet...
by adrianus
Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:39 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Stress or Pitch

Vir litterarum, the issue you raise is relevant to this discussion. The sources I'm using (mid-to-late 20th century listed earlier) say, basically, that the classical latin accent is a bit of both (stress and pitch). I think the debate about this issue was more polarised in the early-20th century (f...
by adrianus
Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:18 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Prosody and Accent

Dear Luci (or is it Luce?--in a seventeenth century source, I see that the vocative for Lucus can be both Luce and Lucus, and Luci the vocative for Lucius), I think this stuff may be quite novel so I'm preparing a paper on it and I can email you the paper for your comments when it's ready (if you wo...
by adrianus
Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:14 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Prosody and accent

This is what the royal grammar says about differentiation. DIFFERENTIA. Differentia tonum transponit: vt Vná aduerbium, vltimam acuit, ne videatur esse nomen: sic, Eó, aliquó, alió, continuó, seduló, porró, forté, quá, siquá, aliquá, nequá, illó, falsó, citó, feré, plané, & id genus...
by adrianus
Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:57 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Hu wrote:There's an excellent guide to Greek accentuation here.
Thanks, Hu, this site is incredibly useful. It puts some of the primary-source Latin vocabulary into context, or at least I suspect and hope it will when I can study it more carefully.
by adrianus
Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:28 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Prosody and accent

As for pácem, that makes more sense, at least as far as Greek accentuation rules go, whereas pâce makes sence in the ablative. In the meantime, Luci, could you try to explain to me, or articulate, the Greek accentuation rule that you refer to? Or is it a habit of speech more than a rule? (I don't...
by adrianus
Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:04 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Prosody and accent

Lily (or Lilly), William, 1468?-1522 (I prefer the alternative spelling, 'Lilly') is the main man for English-Latin linguistic scholarship. For the next two hundred years, other grammarians are translating, construing, commenting and expanding on his royal grammar. No, it's not artificial Latin, but...
by adrianus
Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:45 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Prosody and Stress or Pitch

I thought I would post this as a typical statement made by the grammarians (this is Lilly's latin) which is common to all periods about word stress/accent. These are the rules, and graves, acutes and circumflexes are quite clearly meant to represent stress/tone/pitch (and not vowel-length, although ...
by adrianus
Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:32 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Prosody and Accent

Luci care, sincerest apologies for the mistake. I had already been to your website when I was looking at contributions elsewhere on the TextKit site. I bookmarked it because I think it's a wonderful source that would benefit me greatly, when it comes to reading and learning. I take your point about ...
by adrianus
Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:32 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Prosody and accent

Hi, Davide & Bellum Paxque. Well, Allen & Greenough use an acute (?) to indicate an Apex and talk about other devices such as a raised 'I' and vowel-doubling to indicate long vowels, noting that none of these devices came into general use. However, the grammarians are clear about the roles of the ac...
by adrianus
Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:57 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Prosody and Accent

Salve Laureola. Your observations are very relevant, I think, for the origins of accenting notation, but even in that case I think the grammarians were saying the opposite: that these signs indicated accent (which they distinguish from vowel length), although which symbol was selected, how it was us...
by adrianus
Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:08 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Prosody and Accent

Talking about the early grammarians (Diomedes and Priscian and Aulus Gellius and others) in The Roman Pronunciation of Latin (www.fullbooks.com/The-Roman-Pronunciation-of-Latin.html), Lord says "In the matter of exceptions to the rule that accent does not fall on the ultimate, we find a somewhat wid...
by adrianus
Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:58 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Prosody and Accent

My 17th-century historical study was done without Latin. Better late than never, I wanted to learn it, but using the methods and techniques taught in that period. I thought this would be interesting in tying up loose ends in the "Living Latin" tradition, by starting when immersive Latin teaching was...
by adrianus
Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:25 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Prosody and Accent

Lilly says that the normal rules of stress are broken in five instances: (1) differentiation, (2) transposition (3) attraction (4) concision and (5) idiom, and this is repeated by grammarians and Latin teachers throughout the 16th and 17th centuries (my sources are mostly English). Greenwood (1590) ...
by adrianus
Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:23 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Stress and pitch

Thanks for the comments. Allen (Vox Latina) notes words such as nostrás, illíc, adhúc, addúc, tantón stressed on the last syllable (due to loss of a former final vowel --nostrátis, illíce, adhúce, addúce, tantóne), in syncopated verb endings -át, -ít, from -ávit and -ívit, and stressed...
by adrianus
Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:24 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prosody and syllable stress
Replies: 153
Views: 76682

Prosody and syllable stress

I'm a Latin language novice learning in isolation and I've only just discovered this forum. I've been looking at 16th and 17th century school books that focus on conversational latin (at Lilly, Erasmus and Corderius, in particular) and, from them, it would appear not unusual to stress a word's final...