Search found 2017 matches

by Paul Derouda
Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:01 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23
Replies: 43
Views: 3519

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23

There's not the strength (as with overthrew) of προσλέγω or πρόσφημι in πρὸς ...ἔειπεν, because this is an earlier stage of Greek, so πρὸς is kind of doing its own thing and modifying ἔειπεν and μιν (and much less strongly, perhaps, μῦθον) while remaining distinct. I don’t agree with this. Nor do I...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:37 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23
Replies: 43
Views: 3519

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23

Hi Paul, I just read the highly entertaining thread on LfgrE. Aside from theft or raiding my pension fund is there any other access yet to this incredible resource? I found one copy of Band 2 on Amazon for US 21.00. All other Volumes appear to be unavailable. A university library. Other than that, ...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:53 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23
Replies: 43
Views: 3519

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23

:twisted: :wink: It seems to me that θυμός is the ”breath of life” and corresponds to the impulsive part of the mind - passions, anger, courage, strong emotions in general. That was an interesting thread, thanks. So for μεγαθύμος would you suggest something like 'impassioned' or 'passionate' in the...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:55 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23
Replies: 43
Views: 3519

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23

After all, Odysseus is still desperate to go home after meeting them. It reminds me of how, in the Lord of the Rings, when you meet the elves you're like 'oooh they're so polite and advanced and magical', but you'd still rather live in the Shire with a pint of good ale by the end. A good point. Ody...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:33 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23
Replies: 43
Views: 3519

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23

Hi there, On v. 9: ἀμφὶ δὲ τεῖχος ἔλασσε πόλει Is ἀμφὶ connected to πόλει as a preposition (+D.)? Is it common to have the case far away from the preposition? Or is ἀμφὶ just an adverb? I would say that either is possible. According to Homeric usage, there is even a third possibility, namely that i...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:02 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23
Replies: 43
Views: 3519

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23

The Phaeacians are μεγαθύμων, but this surely can't mean 'great-hearted' in the sense of being warm and welcoming to all strangers if Odysseus has to be shrouded in mist to avoid their taunts. 'High-minded' seems to fit better and I can't help feeling that the narrative voice thinks the slightly me...
by Paul Derouda
Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:10 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23
Replies: 43
Views: 3519

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23

1. Who are the Cyclopes that were harassing the Phaeacians? Are these the same ones that Odysseus talks about later in the Odyssey? Are they really one-eyed? In many respects, the Phaeacians are the antithesis of the Cyclopes, and I think they are reminded of for that reason. An important theme thr...
by Paul Derouda
Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:57 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23
Replies: 43
Views: 3519

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23

I definitely agree with Seneca about keeping the posts to the point. Don't ask more than a couple of questions and don't make more than a few points per post; choose what you find most interesting. The point is to get the discussion started, and then people will raise other points they find interest...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:47 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Replies: 25
Views: 1786

Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5

Paul, just to beat the last living daylight out of this horse, could you affirm what I think is the case, that the new Wilson OCT goes with A (μεταμελήσῃ, ἐπιζητῇ)? If so, I still don't understand the absence of ἄν/ἤν. With all due respect to Herodotus, is it possible that he was a little rusty on ...
by Paul Derouda
Fri May 31, 2019 8:44 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Introduction
Replies: 13
Views: 2282

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Introduction

I won't be an "official" member of the group, but I'll follow the discussion and I'd sure like to post from time to time. Re: French resources. I think there are much less than in English. You probably know Chantraine's Grammaire homérique, which is the standard grammar in any language, but that's a...
by Paul Derouda
Fri May 31, 2019 7:35 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Replies: 25
Views: 1786

Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5

By the way, my new OCT by Wilson reads the same as Hude, but the apparatus is more compact:

μεταμελήσῃ A: -σει d
ἐπιζητῇ A: -τήσει d

A is Laurentianus plut. 70.3 and d a consensus of a number of manuscripts (same as in Hude?).
by Paul Derouda
Fri May 31, 2019 7:27 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Replies: 25
Views: 1786

Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5

Stupid of me, not to notice that text is not the same in Abicht! I suppose it's really an editorial decision; I see that both variants -σει and -σῃ are in the manuscripts, and I'm sure that in general these are very easily corrupted from one form to the other, to the extent that in most relevant pla...
by Paul Derouda
Thu May 30, 2019 2:10 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Replies: 25
Views: 1786

Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5

That's how I understand Abicht. And if I understand him correctly, according to him there's little difference in the meaning here between the different moods. I too would be grateful for any corrections!
by Paul Derouda
Thu May 30, 2019 7:40 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Replies: 25
Views: 1786

Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5

My Herodotus für den Schulgebrauch erklärt von Dr. K. Abicht (*) has an answer, I think: εἰ c. Indic. Fut. in protasi. Dem εἰ c. Indic. Fut. enspricht im folgenden ἤν c. conj. S. z. c. 35 S. 5, 38. I don't know what " S. z. c." stands for, but apparently this means "see Chapter 35, page 5 line 38 wi...
by Paul Derouda
Mon May 27, 2019 2:12 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right
Replies: 18
Views: 2712

Re: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right

I have an alternative theory! :D One heap of bones belonged to young people, the other to old people, and their respective attribution to Egyptians and Persians by Herodotus is either far-fetched speculation, national propaganda or someone pulling his leg. I’m not saying that this isn’t far-fetched ...
by Paul Derouda
Sun May 26, 2019 9:09 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right
Replies: 18
Views: 2712

Re: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right

It's a recurrent idea in Herodotus that Persians are sissies who are used to luxury (Herodotus even tells us in book 1 how it wasn't always so and how it all changed), and that was the general Greek stereotype of them. Herodotus tells us that the reason why he thinks Persians have frail skulls is th...
by Paul Derouda
Sun May 26, 2019 5:02 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right
Replies: 18
Views: 2712

Re: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right

Or, since the idea that "Persians are sissies who live in luxury" is especially Greek, perhaps it's a mixture of local Egyptian folklore and Greek reinterpretation, either by Herodotus or by his Greek-speaking local guides. There were Greeks living in Egypt, who, I suppose, spoke Egyptian to varying...
by Paul Derouda
Sun May 26, 2019 4:57 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right
Replies: 18
Views: 2712

Re: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right

The way I see this passage is that Herodotus really visited the place and saw some heaps of bones. I believe him when he says that some of the bones were more frail than others, for reasons that we'll never know (age? exposure to the elements?), but as far as his explanations go, they are complete n...
by Paul Derouda
Sat May 18, 2019 5:11 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: TLGMarathon: Odyssey, resources
Replies: 10
Views: 1720

Re: TLGMarathon: Odyssey, resources

There's no mention of the Cambridge "Green and Yellow" commentary on books VI to VIII by Garvie, which I think is particularly good (even if it's slightly older than the rest). On the hand, I would bracket Dawe's book, which is interesting if you're looking for an analytical dissection of the Odysse...
by Paul Derouda
Sat May 18, 2019 4:58 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: TLGMarathon: Odyssey, resources
Replies: 10
Views: 1720

Re: TLGMarathon: Odyssey, resources

You should absolutely add Cunliffe's Lexicon of the Homeric dialect on the list. Available online as well:
http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/cunliffe/#eid=1
by Paul Derouda
Thu May 09, 2019 9:24 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Reading Greek without hurting back and neck
Replies: 16
Views: 1989

Re: Reading Greek without hurting back and neck

I'll probably need a new Herodotus OCT soon, because pages are already falling out. Go to a bookbinder they can do wonders, I've been going to the same bookbinder for binding my unpublished books (when we had bookshelves for our own works rather than drop-boxes) and book repairs since the now manag...
by Paul Derouda
Sun May 05, 2019 1:10 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Reading Greek without hurting back and neck
Replies: 16
Views: 1989

Re: Reading Greek without hurting back and neck

Hello ἑκηβόλος, Do those mounts you picture have a name so I can google? I might use for one or two. I'm still in my thirties, so my back and neck are not too bad yet, my problem is rather that to stay on the right page I have to put my books open face down on the table. That's not so much of a prob...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:13 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Homer in Nature Human Behavior April 8, 2019
Replies: 4
Views: 1329

Re: Homer in Nature Human Behavior April 8, 2019

After reading the Odyssey for the first time Iread the Iliad, and after the Iliad, I turned to Hesiod. Each time I noticed a slight change in language, though I couldn’t exactly say what it was. I have no doubt that these differences can be found by statistical analysis. However, I’m rather skeptica...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:13 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Happy Easter!
Replies: 1
Views: 406

Re: Happy Easter!

Will try that tomorrow for a change! In Eastertime I usually stick with Matthäus and (occasionally) Johannes, time to mix up things a bit!
by Paul Derouda
Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:22 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Homer in Nature Human Behavior April 8, 2019
Replies: 4
Views: 1329

Re: Homer in Nature Human Behavior April 8, 2019

I don't have access to the article - this kind of thing is interesting, at least as long as one is extremely cautious about the conclusions. Richard Janko did a relative chronology of the early Greek hexameter corpus over 30 years ago, but the problem is that you can't simply put poets from differen...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:04 am
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right
Replies: 18
Views: 2712

Re: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right

So the same Herodotus who is apparently able to give a detailed description of the building plan of an Egyptian river boat, misrepresents the measures of a city wall by a factor of 10? It doesn't seem convincing. I don't necessarily think he's lying about the wall, some boastful Babylionian probabl...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:33 am
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right
Replies: 18
Views: 2712

Re: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right

Thanks for the links - I read the first one, not knowing Dutch. ;) The concluding remarks deserve to quoted: In the light of this, all attempts to save Herodotus’ description of the city as authentic are doomed. The fantastic description of its customs and habits suggests a similar conclusion. This ...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:16 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right
Replies: 18
Views: 2712

Re: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right

How can one be sure of such a thing? :) I'll find the precise examples when I have more time, but I don't think he ever positively claims that he went to Babylon. He does give the impression that he did, but even if he never was there (which I think is possible but perhaps not likely), that wouldn't...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:43 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Meno 89e
Replies: 2
Views: 466

Re: Meno 89e

This kind of question is impossible to answer if we don't have more context.
by Paul Derouda
Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:50 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right
Replies: 18
Views: 2712

Re: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right

This is really quite interesting. I wish I could find a slightly more detailed discussion of this find, preferably with good illustrations, without actually reading the whole monograph! I'm not really sure what exactly is so special about this ship as compared to other ships of this era, but I'd lik...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:01 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: The Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek
Replies: 29
Views: 6280

Re: The Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek

One shouldn't judge a book by its cover, but oh my that's horrible! It reminds me of all those generic covers you see for print-on-demand books. But I'm still anxious to get to read that book and might even get a copy, especially as it's not that expensive after all. I've read book on Greek verbs by...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:27 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: diachronic syllabificiation of ἐξακολουθῶ
Replies: 17
Views: 3881

Re: diachronic syllabificiation of ἐξακολουθῶ

I have no idea, just asking: might it be possible that Smyth is reflecting spelling conventions (i.e. ways syllables are separated in case of line break etc.)?
by Paul Derouda
Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:44 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Od. 15, 42
Replies: 2
Views: 832

Re: Od. 15, 42

Hello and welcome! When asking this sort of question, it would be nice to give some context, at least by copy-pasting the text in question at some length. So here we have the end of a lengthy speech delivered by Athena to Telemachus: αὐτὰρ ἐπὴν πρώτην ἀκτὴν Ἰθάκης ἀφίκηαι, νῆα μὲν ἐς πόλιν ὀτρῦναι κ...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:38 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Learning poetry
Replies: 10
Views: 1118

Re: Learning poetry

I would definitely recommend Homer. Homer is a lot easier than any tragedy. Homer is the foundation of pretty much all classical Greek literature, so whatever you're reading, you'll probably profit from having read Homer before. And once you have some Homer under your belt, tragedy will be much easi...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:18 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plural of modesty?
Replies: 2
Views: 485

Re: Plural of modesty?

Thanks, I'm going to check that out!
by Paul Derouda
Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:16 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Translation or translation?
Replies: 25
Views: 2817

Re: Translation or translation?

Of course I can accept that you prefer to translate in the way you do. I have always argued for plurality. I'll give you that - you have indeed always argued for plurality, defending a minority view valiantly yet politely, even when the cause seems lost. :wink: What bothers me with Wilson is her wa...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:26 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Translation or translation?
Replies: 25
Views: 2817

Re: Translation or translation?

Her view on slavery is not a whim but a considered view shared by other scholars. I have the feeling that you haven't even read what I have written. No one disagrees with her views on slavery (that "handmaids" are actually slaves, that slavery is not a nice thing etc.). What I disagree with are her...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:41 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Translation or translation?
Replies: 25
Views: 2817

Re: Translation or translation?

On slavery I think we can stress too much the importance of her terminology in her overall scheme. She simply wants to jolt people away from the Downton Abbey conception of maids and housekeepers and ladies in waiting. But don't you see that the relationship between servants and masters is idealize...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:19 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Translation or translation?
Replies: 25
Views: 2817

Re: Translation or translation?

I think that Hannink is a welcome counterblast to this rather fixed view of the role of the translator. A literal approach may have its place in the classroom (although Hannink would now doubt this) but it has no place in a literary project. I think you're blurring the distinction between literal a...