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by Paul Derouda
Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:13 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Agamemnon of Aeschylus
Replies: 41
Views: 23273

Re: Agamemnon of Aeschylus

CSB, I agree that setting a target rate won't improve the experience of work of art, especially if it means spending many months reading it. Ideally, you should read to the whole play in 2 hours or preferably see it in the theatre! Unfortunately, Classical Greek is not our native tongue... Hence, 65...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:30 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Agamemnon of Aeschylus
Replies: 41
Views: 23273

Re: Agamemnon of Aeschylus

I don't have any very particular rules in mind, and I wasn't thinking about anything very formal. Just that we agree about a reading pace and discuss anything we find difficult or interesting as we proceed, by translating or by other means. Personnally I like to use commentaries (as many as I can ge...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:12 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Agamemnon of Aeschylus
Replies: 41
Views: 23273

Agamemnon of Aeschylus

Hi! I was already asking about this in another thread... Who wants to read Agamemnon of Aeschylus together, the Attic tragedy you should read before you die? It is difficult, but that's why reading it together with someone is a good idea. And it's not too long, just 1673 lines - the Iliad is >15000!...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:55 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: The Agamemnon of Aeschylus recorded in Ancient Greek
Replies: 8
Views: 5196

Re: The Agamemnon of Aeschylus recorded in Ancient Greek

I was thinking something like 100 to 150 lines per week. Agamemnon is actually 1673 lines, so it would take 3 to 4 months. I think nobody wants to keep reading one play for a year, that's just too long, you want to get to the end as fast as possible... 3 to 4 months might be a good compromise, thoug...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:48 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: The Agamemnon of Aeschylus recorded in Ancient Greek
Replies: 8
Views: 5196

Re: The Agamemnon of Aeschylus recorded in Ancient Greek

And how is the recording? Do you think the CDs are worth getting? I am very interested in reconstructed pronunciation, but I find most renderings disappointing. Stephen Daitz turns my blood cold... There is one rendering I think everyone interested in reconstructed pronunciation should check out. Th...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:37 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: The Agamemnon of Aeschylus recorded in Ancient Greek
Replies: 8
Views: 5196

Re: The Agamemnon of Aeschylus recorded in Ancient Greek

By the way, anyone interested in reading Agamemnon together? It's already a few years I've wanted to read it, but the couple of times I've tried I've always stopped somewhere near line 100... I think it's most difficult Greek text I know, but certainly something to read in the original before you di...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:29 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Aorist Imperative
Replies: 13
Views: 26282

Re: Aorist Imperative

Let me try to make it really simple... Imagine giving the order "Jump!" in English. In greek you can use either 1) The aorist imperative (most common). Then you mean that someone must jump once, like "Jump over the fence!", "Jump into that taxi!", etc. 2) The present imperative (less common). Depend...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:20 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey book 9 - lines 343-344
Replies: 5
Views: 4138

Re: Odyssey book 9 - lines 343-344

I'd like to add that calling ὅ an article is a bit misleading - in Homeric Greek it's (usually) better just to call it a demonstrative pronoun.

Btw, in LSJ you'll find a reference to the very similar Od. 9.289 under συμμάρπτω.
by Paul Derouda
Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:29 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Introduction to critical apparatus
Replies: 2
Views: 1805

Re: Introduction to critical apparatus

That's the one, exactly! Thanks!
by Paul Derouda
Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:48 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Introduction to critical apparatus
Replies: 2
Views: 1805

Introduction to critical apparatus

Some time ago I found somewhere on the web a good introduction on how to use a critical apparatus. It was a PDF file (I think) of something like 5 or 20 pages, consisting in big part of a glossary of all the latin words and abreviations you can find a critical apparatus. The problem is, I don't reme...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:13 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Reading Thucydides 2014
Replies: 707
Views: 315870

Re: Thinking about Thucydides 2012

At 1.38.2 we have:

ἡμεῖς δὲ οὐδ᾽ αὐτοί φαμεν ἐπὶ τῷ ὑπὸ τούτων ὑβρίζεσθαι κατοικίσαι, ἀλλ᾽ ἐπὶ τῷ ἡγεμόνες τε εἶναι καὶ τὰ εἰκότα θαυμάζεσθαι

Can you explain why οὐδέ is in this position? I think this is some special use of of φημί but I can't recall it, can you help me?
by Paul Derouda
Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:00 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Reading Thucydides 2014
Replies: 707
Views: 315870

Re: Thinking about Thucydides 2012

At 1.33.2, we get: καὶ σκέψασθε: τίς εὐπραξία σπανιωτέρα ἢ τίς τοῖς πολεμίοις λυπηροτέρα, εἰ ἣν ὑμεῖς ἂν πρὸ πολλῶν χρημάτων καὶ χάριτος ἐτιμήσασθε δύναμιν ὑμῖν προσγενέσθαι, αὕτη πάρεστιν αὐτεπάγγελτος ἄνευ κινδύνων καὶ δαπάνης διδοῦσα ἑαυτήν, καὶ προσέτι φέρουσα ἐς μὲν τοὺς πολλοὺς ἀρετήν, οἷς δὲ...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:56 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Reading Thucydides 2014
Replies: 707
Views: 315870

Re: Thinking about Thucydides 2012

As I understand it, προυφειλομένης is a passive participle in the genitive absolute construction, meaning '[with something] already being owed'. It is used to describe the circumstances of the Corcyraeans' request to the Athenians: they are making their request with no debt for alliance or great se...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:58 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Reading Thucydides 2014
Replies: 707
Views: 315870

Re: Thinking about Thucydides 2012

* These are simple genitives with a participle modifying them (lit. who possess neither x nor y that is z), all as part of the substantive participle serving as the subject in this construction. Probably you're right. But I have the same problem as pster in producing "[who are] without". Should I i...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:24 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Reading Thucydides 2014
Replies: 707
Views: 315870

Re: Thinking about Thucydides 2012

Thanks. 1) is clear now. I just couldn't link προυφειλομένης with δεησομένους, too many interfering words... I somehow thought it wasn't on the "same level" as the other genitives (whatever the correct grammatical term is, I thought it governed the other genitives or vice versa). 2) is still hazy. I...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:52 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Reading Thucydides 2014
Replies: 707
Views: 315870

Re: Thinking about Thucydides 2012

The beginning of 1.32 is utterly incomprehensible to me... Δίκαιον, ὦ Ἀθηναῖοι, τοὺς μήτε εὐεργεσίας μεγάλης μήτε ξυμμαχίας προυφειλομένης ἥκοντας παρὰ τοὺς πέλας ἐπικουρίας, ὥσπερ καὶ ἡμεῖς νῦν, δεησομένους ἀναδιδάξαι πρῶτον, μάλιστα μὲν ὡς καὶ ξύμφορα δέονται , εἰ δὲ μή, ὅτι γε οὐκ ἐπιζήμια, ἔπειτ...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:00 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Reading Thucydides 2014
Replies: 707
Views: 315870

Re: Thinking about Thucydides 2012

I see this has been answered at least twice. I am not certain that πρότερον is adverbial. It could be an adjective used with μέγιστον. There seem to be two clauses here, the passive verb ἐπράχθη PRASSW where the subject is the substantive μέγιστον limited by [πρότερον?] τῶν ἔργων. Either the substa...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:38 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Reading Thucydides 2014
Replies: 707
Views: 315870

Re: Thinking about Thucydides 2012

Very basic question. This is one of the reasons I find Attic so hard. 1.23.1: τῶν δὲ πρότερον ἔργων μέγιστον ἐπράχθη τὸ Μηδικόν , καὶ τοῦτο ὅμως δυοῖν ναυμαχίαιν καὶ πεζομαχίαιν ταχεῖαν τὴν κρίσιν ἔσχεν. What is the subject of ἐπράχθη? And what is the object? Is there an article missing? Is there a...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:05 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: kappa tau lambda period
Replies: 3
Views: 1997

Re: kappa tau lambda period

καὶ τὰ λοιπά - etc.
by Paul Derouda
Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:18 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Reading Thucydides 2014
Replies: 707
Views: 315870

Re: Thinking about Thucydides 2012

I've been secretly trying to keep up with your reading... Because I don't know if I can commit myself to this one year enterprise, but I'll try for some time! 1) What you say about solar eclipses is interesting. According to E.C. Marchant's commentary on that passage, the eclipses occured in 431 B.C...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:59 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Augment?
Replies: 4
Views: 1992

Re: Augment?

I'm quoting and translating Chantraine (Dictionnaire étymologique de la langue grecque):

ἔοικα...old perfect form based on (ϝ)έ(ϝ)οικα...

ἐῴκει ... seems to be based in definitive on *(ἐ)-ϝέ-ϝοικ-ει...

So my guess is yes, it is an augment. Or that's how I'll interpret this.
by Paul Derouda
Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:48 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: How to pronounce "K" in Ancient Greek?
Replies: 5
Views: 4648

Re: How to pronounce "K" in Ancient Greek?

In Ancient Greek, kappa is always a hard sound and never an s sound. But from an Ancient Greek point of view, English hard k can represent two different sounds: κ (kappa) and χ (khi), i.e. in different contexts English k can either be aspirated or unaspirated, pronounced with or without an 'h' sound...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:42 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: January is Greek Prose Composition Month!
Replies: 100
Views: 23393

Re: January is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Hi! You seem to have been working with Sidgwick for a while already, but is it possible to join you?

I've just been reading and never really written Greek myself before, being an autodidact... But I guess I must start one day. If I notice my Greek is too lousy I'll just drop out, ok...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:04 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Learning Modern Greek
Replies: 48
Views: 28475

Re: Learning Modern Greek

I guess I'm starting with Hittite Myths then. Clicking at Amazon is easy, too easy considering all those unread books in my shelf...

Saying this a little off topic is quite an understatement. I'll start a new thread as soon as I have something to say ;)

Thanks a lot, though!
by Paul Derouda
Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:29 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Learning Modern Greek
Replies: 48
Views: 28475

Re: Learning Modern Greek

Well I'm not sure really what to recommend since I've no idea what you've read or what level you're aiming for. Neither do I ;) But I've been noticing that your interests are not very different from mine and I thought maybe I should be going the same way you've gone... But this is a hobby, I'm not ...
by Paul Derouda
Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:30 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Learning Modern Greek
Replies: 48
Views: 28475

Re: Learning Modern Greek

Thanks... Well, of the four sources you gave me, three are already in my bookshelf... ;) They are the books that gave me appetite for more. I did some googling, and Penglase's book looks interesting too. I think this is the one you meant: Penglase, C., Greek Myths and Mesopotamia: Parallels and Infl...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:04 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Learning Modern Greek
Replies: 48
Views: 28475

Luwian loan words

When we're discussing whether or not such a particle is a Luwian loan word or whether such a phrase is a clumsy rendering of an Akkadian original or even reading a Hellenistic novel and laughing at the slight change of an old Homeric phrasing Greek is obviously important. This post is about closed ...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:12 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Which type of Greek?
Replies: 14
Views: 6583

Re: Which type of Greek?

We're straying far from the original subject, but anyway... By saying that reconstructed pronounciation is controversial, I didn't mean that there's controversy about the scientific basis of pitch accent or the quality and quantity of vowels, except for detail. The differences in detail will add to ...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:27 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Which type of Greek?
Replies: 14
Views: 6583

Re: Which type of Greek?

Pster, I don't think I really disagree with you in principle. Immersion is the right way to learn a language, textbooks and grammars are there only to get you started and for occasional consultation. You learn to read a language by reading it and you learn to speak a language by talking and listenin...
by Paul Derouda
Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:15 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Stupid Sappho question
Replies: 5
Views: 2348

Re: Stupid Sappho question

The line is actually incomplete in the Loeb as well, but it has been finished by the editor: πρὶν σὲ καὶ Δί' ἀντ[ίαον κάλεσσαι I didn't mention this to make things simpler. But the example you found shows that it exists outside the imagination of the editors ;). The problem persists, what is this wo...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:52 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Stupid Sappho question
Replies: 5
Views: 2348

Re: Stupid Sappho question

That's what I was suspecting too. So is it a particularity of Aeolic that the forms aren't nom. ἀντιάων and acc. ἀντιάοντα? Where could I read more about this? (I've read Annis' great introduction to Lesbian Aeolic, but I couldn't find the answer there.)
by Paul Derouda
Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:33 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Which type of Greek?
Replies: 14
Views: 6583

Re: Which type of Greek?

Hmm... I'm sorry to disagree, but I wouldn't recommend a beginner to spend too much time listening to audio recordings of Homer, though this would be the right approach for living languages. The whole issue of reconstructed pronunciation is just too controversial. Keep it simple. Just learn Homeric ...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:22 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Stupid Sappho question
Replies: 5
Views: 2348

Stupid Sappho question

This is probably a stupid question, but it bothers me so I'm posting this... Sappho fr. 17 line 9 reads (Sappho is addressing Hera): πρὶν σὲ καὶ Δί' ἀντίαον κάλεσσαι My Loeb translates "until they called on you and Zeus the god of suppliants". I guess "god of suppliants" comes from ἀντίαον. I can't ...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:02 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Which type of Greek?
Replies: 14
Views: 6583

Re: Which type of Greek?

There is not one single Ancient Greek but different dialects from different times and places. The ones that are commonly studied are Homeric Greek, Attic Greek and Koine Greek. Epic Greek is more or less the same as Homeric Greek. If you want to read Homer, this is obviously what you should learn ;)...
by Paul Derouda
Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:59 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Homer's Odyssey workbook
Replies: 4
Views: 4595

Re: Homer's Odyssey workbook

At least I'm not aware of any. But Pharr's is a good book, anything that is says applies for the Odyssey too. There's practically no difference between "Iliadic Greek" and "Odyssean Greek". Pharr includes the text of the first book of the Iliad. Once you have read the book through and master all the...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:03 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: M. L. West's edition of the Iliad
Replies: 45
Views: 40006

Re: M. L. West's edition of the Iliad

It's an excellent edition. First of all, he has collated a huge number of new papyri, about 700. I think the "controversy" (if there is one) is about it being a bold edition. West's interpretes the scholia in a new way (the relative role of Aristarchus and Didymus) and has his own ideas about orthog...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:19 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Homeric Greek dictionary
Replies: 2
Views: 2298

Re: Homeric Greek dictionary

I have LSJ, Middle Liddell, Little Liddell (I don't need all three, but each time I thought I needed an upgrade... ;) ), Cunliffe and Autenrieth. If you have Cunliffe, you don't need LSJ, Middle Liddell or Little Liddell to read Homer. I agree with jswilkmd that if you need one dictionnary to read j...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:46 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Autenrieth vs. Cunliffe
Replies: 5
Views: 2280

Re: Autenrieth vs. Cunliffe

Autenrieth is more of a beginner's dictionnary. The definitions are very short. It's an old book, from the XIXth century, and actually it's a translation of German original work. There are nice illustrations, "plates", that help you understand what those ship part names and other technical Homeric t...
by Paul Derouda
Thu May 05, 2011 4:03 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Time to buy a lexicon/dictionary
Replies: 5
Views: 2786

Re: Time to buy a lexicon/dictionary

If you're a happy owner of iPhone, you should definitely get Lexiphanes. 3 euros in the App Store. Lexiphanes is basically LSJ + Autenrieth's Homeric Dictionnary, which after installing you can access on your iPhone without being online. That's what I call a pocket dictionnary. (I guess it works wit...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:49 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Chp XLV- line 201 scansion
Replies: 6
Views: 5494

Re: Chp XLV- line 201 scansion

As a side note: does anyone (Annis?) know if all the cases in Homer where mute + liquid leaves the previous short syllable short can be explained by historical linguistics? Like ποταύδα -> προσηύδα. βροτός can also be "explained away", as the original form (long time before Homer) is believed to hav...