Search found 2017 matches

by Paul Derouda
Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:03 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Tyrtaeus Fr. 9
Replies: 16
Views: 3506

Re: Tyrtaeus Fr. 9

It's some time since I last visited Textkit! A couple of comments. ὅντιν’ ἀριστεύοντα "whoever being the best" - ἀριστεύω means, I think, something like "to display military excellence". φάλαγγας τρηχείας - why are the ranks "rough"? I think it is sort of funny - I suppose the idea is that spear poi...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:32 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: how does ἔστιν ὅτε function in this segment from Thucydides
Replies: 1
Views: 1065

Re: how does ἔστιν ὅτε function in this segment from Thucydi

ἔστιν ὅτε is a fixed elliptical expression that means approximately "at times", "now and then"; in this particular case, it seems to mean "often". See LSJ ὅτε A.4.2. ὅτε doesn't connect closely with what follows like ὅτε usually does.
by Paul Derouda
Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:36 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Charmides 163B ἐπ᾿ οἰκήματος καθημένῳ
Replies: 7
Views: 1773

Re: Charmides 163B ἐπ᾿ οἰκήματος καθημένῳ

It's true, I didn't even think about the masculine ending, because I was immediately thinking of other places where I've encountered this usage ἐπ᾿ οἰκήματος καθημένῳ (Aeschines beside Herodotus). But prostitutes can be male as well. Re: stews, again. Actually, I now remember about an acquaintance w...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:06 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Charmides 163B ἐπ᾿ οἰκήματος καθημένῳ
Replies: 7
Views: 1773

Re: Charmides 163B ἐπ᾿ οἰκήματος καθημένῳ

Actually, why do we invariably have the preposition ἐπί in ἐπ᾿ οἰκήματος? Why not, say, ἐν?

So Turkish baths are depraved? I've been to Turkey once, but I didn't try their baths.
by Paul Derouda
Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:32 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Charmides 163B ἐπ᾿ οἰκήματος καθημένῳ
Replies: 7
Views: 1773

Re: Charmides 163B ἐπ᾿ οἰκήματος καθημένῳ

By the way, I wonder why public baths ("stews") are so often and in so many places thought of as seats of depravity. If you ever come to Finland, you should definitely go to a sauna, private or public – in this country at least it's not a euphemism for anything else, just sauna!
by Paul Derouda
Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:26 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Charmides 163B ἐπ᾿ οἰκήματος καθημένῳ
Replies: 7
Views: 1773

Re: Charmides 163B ἐπ᾿ οἰκήματος καθημένῳ

Well, it seems to me that ἧμαι and its derivatives often have connotations of inactivity. In this particular case, certainly not sitting at the front desk. I think the women were supposed to sit there passively waiting for men to come and have their way with them. I'm not sure, though, whether the l...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:31 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Earliest text of the Odyssey?
Replies: 17
Views: 3749

Re: Earliest text of the Odyssey?

This thread is getting diverted, but let me add that I liked Simon Pulleyn's (who's made a nice commentary on Iliad 1) comment on Gainsford's post. John Cottingham, the philosopher of religion, makes the point that what people find persuasive in his field study very often has less to do with a proce...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:08 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Earliest text of the Odyssey?
Replies: 17
Views: 3749

Re: Earliest text of the Odyssey?

Sorry, I meant to write "it wasn't aimed at you". I really did! :lol: Here I am laughing at other people's mistakes while making my own.
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:48 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Earliest text of the Odyssey?
Replies: 17
Views: 3749

Re: Earliest text of the Odyssey?

Sorry, I couldn't help the jab about multidimensional space. It was aimed at you; it's whoever wrote the press release that should have done his homework better.
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:45 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Earliest text of the Odyssey?
Replies: 17
Views: 3749

Re: Earliest text of the Odyssey?

Multidimensional space indeed! In the dimension I live in, the earliest surviving Homer manuscripts (on papyrus) are 3rd century BC - but who knows about other dimensions?

The 24 books of the Odyssey are traditionally assigned letters from α to ω, and ξ represents 14.
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:43 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Earliest text of the Odyssey?
Replies: 17
Views: 3749

Re: Earliest text of the Odyssey?

The AFT press release says (https://www.afp.com/en/news/2266/ancient-tablet-odyssey-epic-discovered-greece-doc-17f1fu1): If this date is confirmed, the tablet could be the oldest written record of Homer's work ever discovered" in Greece, a ministry statement said. This might well be true - in Greece...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:27 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Anyone interested in a Greek reading group for the Odyssey
Replies: 9
Views: 3605

Re: Anyone interested in a Greek reading group for the Odyss

I see this reading group hasn't got very far yet... But if anyone of you has started reading, I suggest that you just post your queries here, whether you have a group or not. I'm sure you'll get answers. Altair takes up quite a number of points on the first lines of the poem. Perhaps you could selec...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:03 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus
Replies: 4
Views: 1534

Re: Herodotus

The Cambridge Greek and Latin Classics ("Yellow and Green") series includes several of the later books of Herodotus. These are probably a little beyond your level, but they generally provide a wealth of information, and you might want to challenge yourself: https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?u...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:58 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Introducing myself
Replies: 4
Views: 1140

Re: Introducing myself

Welcome! Being able to read Homeric Greek without the help of commentaries is a great goal - but you don't necessarily want to. So many intelligent people have spent hundreds of years reading the epics that it's worth knowing what they have to say! Βῆ Βῆ / Vi vi! Isn't joking about this considered h...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:47 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: West's Making of the Odyssey Reviewed at BMCR
Replies: 2
Views: 1786

Re: West's Making of the Odyssey Reviewed at BMCR

All my stuff, including my Mac, has been in cardboard boxes, so I haven't been able to post (I don't like to post with a pad or a phone). You bet I'd read this review already before Joel posted about it! We've discussed West's theories many times before, so I haven't really much to add to what's bee...
by Paul Derouda
Wed May 23, 2018 7:58 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 3,9,2
Replies: 8
Views: 1783

Re: Herodotus 3,9,2

The distinction between “mythology” and “history” is largely a modern one, isn’t it? It doesn’t seem to be Herodotean, for whom some tales are more plausible than others, and not even Thucydides questioned the historicity of the Trojan War, or of Hellen son of Deucalion. I didn't mean that Herodotu...
by Paul Derouda
Tue May 22, 2018 8:26 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 3,9,2
Replies: 8
Views: 1783

Re: Herodotus 3,9,2

It's actually possible to do a reverse search with TLG dictionaries (LSJ, Powell, Cunliffe). http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/lsj/#eid=1&context=lsj Before typing word you're looking for, select "meanings", and click "go". For "thumb", we apparently have τὸ ἄκρον τῆς χειρός, ὁ ἀντίχειρ (sc. δάκτυλος) an...
by Paul Derouda
Sun May 20, 2018 9:11 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Pharr Lesson XXXII
Replies: 7
Views: 2675

Re: Pharr Lesson XXXII

Whether my experiences are worth anything or not, let me tell about them. Pharr's book was my introduction to Greek over ten years ago, more or less. I think it's still the only textbook I've finished, but since then I've read many other authors in other dialects, especially in Attic (the tragedians...
by Paul Derouda
Wed May 16, 2018 8:13 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Thucydides 1.70
Replies: 8
Views: 3018

Re: Thucydides 1.70

Thanks for your excellent answers, each of you. All three seem to agree that νεωτεροποιοὶ isn't pejorative, so I guess that's about it then. I've read about Thucydides' style avoiding strict parallelisms, and this is indeed a case in point. But the fact is that I'm still struggling so much with unde...
by Paul Derouda
Tue May 15, 2018 12:47 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Thucydides 1.70
Replies: 8
Views: 3018

Thucydides 1.70

The Corianthians' speech to Spartans about Athens: [1]καὶ ἅμα, εἴπερ τινὲς καὶ ἄλλοι, ἄξιοι νομίζομεν εἶναι τοῖς πέλας ψόγον ἐπενεγκεῖν, ἄλλως τε καὶ μεγάλων τῶν διαφερόντων καθεστώτων, περὶ ὧν οὐκ αἰσθάνεσθαι ἡμῖν γε δοκεῖτε, οὐδ᾽ ἐκλογίσασθαι πώποτε πρὸς οἵους ὑμῖν Ἀθηναίους ὄντας καὶ ὅσον ὑμῶν κα...
by Paul Derouda
Mon May 14, 2018 6:32 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Anyone interested in a Greek reading group for the Odyssey
Replies: 9
Views: 3605

Re: Anyone interested in a Greek reading group for the Odyss

Hello and welcome! Whether someone joins your group or not – if you start reading the Odyssey and just post any questions here, I'm sure you'll get answers and help. I for one have already read the Odyssey a couple of times, so I won't be joining the group, but I'd be happy to help, and there are ot...
by Paul Derouda
Mon May 14, 2018 4:13 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: An inscribed stele near the acropolis of Athens
Replies: 24
Views: 4229

Re: An inscribed stele near the acropolis of Athens

Homeric usage isn't necessarily a good guide here To the contrary: the hexameters were composed by someone who knew Homeric usage well, as στῆσεν and ἦεν demonstrate. Homer would have been central to the author's education. Well, yes and no: what I meant was that although Homer was central to one's...
by Paul Derouda
Mon May 14, 2018 1:26 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: An inscribed stele near the acropolis of Athens
Replies: 24
Views: 4229

Re: An inscribed stele near the acropolis of Athens

Thanks a lot Hylander! I like your γεγαῶτα conjecture. It does seem to make more sense to me, although of course I can't tell, especially as I haven't seen the original inscription - and especially as Homeric usage isn't necessarily a good guide here (hence my joke in my earlier answer about "monstr...
by Paul Derouda
Mon May 07, 2018 4:50 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: An inscribed stele near the acropolis of Athens
Replies: 24
Views: 4229

Re: An inscribed stele near the acropolis of Athens

κοσμήτορα παίδων -- a clever adaptation of a Homeric formula for a schoolteacher? Or is it an adaptation by an affectionate son? You might also call it a monstrous perversion of a Homeric formula - whichever you prefer! τόνδε ἀπὸ δᾳδούχων ἱερῆς μητρός τε γεγῶτα, ἣ τελετὰς ἀνέφαινε θεοῖν παρ’ ἀνάκτο...
by Paul Derouda
Mon May 07, 2018 4:34 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: An inscribed stele near the acropolis of Athens
Replies: 24
Views: 4229

Re: An inscribed stele near the acropolis of Athens

Revised translation: κατ’ ἐπερώτημα τῆς βουλῆς τῶν Φ Χαρίτωνα Νεικίου Μαραθώνιον ζα- κορεύσαντα Ἀσκληπιοῦ καὶ Ὑγείας ἐν τῷ ἐπὶ Πομ- πηίου Ἀλεξάνδρου ἄρ- χοντος ἐνιαυτῶι "Chariton son of Nikias from Marathon, who, according to the sanction of the council of the 500, served at the temple of Asclepios ...
by Paul Derouda
Mon May 07, 2018 4:20 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: An inscribed stele near the acropolis of Athens
Replies: 24
Views: 4229

Re: An inscribed stele near the acropolis of Athens

Thanks! That makes it a lot clearer now. The largest part of my problem was assuming that the inscription was significantly older than it actually is, hence trying to force the names into patronyms, when they actually were of the Roman type, or refusing to accept that it actually reads Pompeius, and...
by Paul Derouda
Wed May 02, 2018 3:41 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Homer in the Economist
Replies: 5
Views: 3366

Re: Homer in the Economist

I haven't read any of these, although I've been tempted to read Atwood. I've watched the HBO series made from her book The Handmaid's Tale with horrified fascination. The series is very well written, so I assume that the book must be equally good. Generally speaking, though, I don't like historical ...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:42 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 3, 92-95
Replies: 4
Views: 2218

Re: Odyssey 3, 92-95

All right, it wasn't a very good point to say that πλάζω is regularly applied to Odysseus, especially as this is only the second instance (if indeed it is). So my point number two doesn't really work. The Oxford commentary's point about the γάρ seems good. The γάρ doesn't work nearly as well, if πλα...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:37 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 3, 92-95
Replies: 4
Views: 2218

Re: Odyssey 3, 92-95

I suppose that technically, both interpretations are possible. However, I'm siding with the Oxford commentary here. I have no hard data to back my claim and my books are in cardboard boxes, so I can't look up anything, though... 1) I think the genitive πλαζομένου referring to Odysseus is made more a...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:58 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 3.25.3. & slavery
Replies: 3
Views: 1290

Re: Herodotus 3.25.3. & slavery

1.95.2. Ἀσσυρίων ἀρχόντων τῆς ἄνω Ἀσίης ἐπ᾽ ἔτεα εἴκοσι καὶ πεντακόσια, πρῶτοι ἀπ᾽ αὐτῶν Μῆδοι ἤρξαντο ἀπίστασθαι, καὶ κως οὗτοι περὶ τῆς ἐλευθερίης μαχεσάμενοι τοῖσι Ἀσσυρίοισι ἐγένοντο ἄνδρες ἀγαθοί, καὶ ἀπωσάμενοι τὴν δουλοσύνην ἐλευθερώθησαν. μετὰ δὲ τούτους καὶ τὰ ἄλλα ἔθνεα ἐποίεε τὠυτὸ τοῖσι ...
by Paul Derouda
Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:47 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 3.25.3. & slavery
Replies: 3
Views: 1290

Herodotus 3.25.3. & slavery

ἐπείτε δὲ στρατευόμενος ἐγένετο ἐν Θήβῃσι, ἀπέκρινε τοῦ στρατοῦ ὡς πέντε μυριάδας, καὶ τούτοισι μὲν ἐνετέλλετο Ἀμμωνίους ἐξανδραποδισαμένους τὸ χρηστήριον τὸ τοῦ Διὸς ἐμπρῆσαι, αὐτὸς δὲ τὸν λοιπὸν ἄγων στρατὸν ἤιε ἐπὶ τοὺς Αἰθίοπας. "When he came in his march to Thebes , he detached about fifty thou...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:41 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: An inscribed stele near the acropolis of Athens
Replies: 24
Views: 4229

Re: An inscribed stele near the acropolis of Athens

Perhaps:
εν τῶ<ι> ἐπι Πομπηίου Ἀλεξάνδρου ἄρχοντος ἐνιαθτῶ
"in the year of the archonship of Pompeios son of Alexander"

But can it really be what it looks like, a Roman name - Pompey?
by Paul Derouda
Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:27 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Epitaphs, memorial phrases
Replies: 6
Views: 1785

Re: Epitaphs, memorial phrases

This isn't exactly what you're looking for... But if you were standing on the grave of your worst enemy, you might quote the Odyssey (1.47): ὡς ἀπόλοιτο καὶ ἄλλος, ὅτις τοιαῦτά γε ῥέζοι "Let anyone who did what he did die like that." This is what Scipio Aemilianus said, according to legend, when Tib...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:16 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: An inscribed stele near the acropolis of Athens
Replies: 24
Views: 4229

An inscribed stele near the acropolis of Athens

A friend of mine visiting Athens sent this photo. You will have guessed which particular detail caught his attention. I've tried to decipher the inscription, but I haven't quite got it. Here's my best shot: https://i.imgur.com/nN0dIYc.jpg κατ᾽ ἐπερώτημα τῆς βουλὴς τῶν φ' Χαρίτωνα Νεικιοῦ Μαραθώνιον ...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:13 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Newbie seeks good readers
Replies: 17
Views: 5542

Re: Newbie seeks good readers

I don't, but it looks nice at a quick glance. Actually I've seen it in my university library, but I didn't borrow it for some reason, maybe because my book pile was so high already. Apparently it has similar aims as Abicht for Herodotus, being "für den Schulgebrauch erklärt", while Classen-Steup is ...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:51 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Thucydides 1.42.1.
Replies: 10
Views: 2420

Re: Thucydides 1.42.1.

What I think? I'm not sure, I've read it in such short bits that I still don't have very good general picture... Should read it again, I guess. One thing that surprised me was his somewhat superstitious view of that earthquakes were particularly common during the war, given the general view that he ...
by Paul Derouda
Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:26 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Thucydides 1.42.1.
Replies: 10
Views: 2420

Re: Thucydides 1.42.1.

Well, I posted an extremely difficult sentence without any context, so I'm not exactly blaming you for not understanding something I couldn't understand myself with the help of a translation.. There are a few very frustrating words in Greek that can mean almost anything according to context. ἀξιόω i...
by Paul Derouda
Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:53 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Thucydides 1.42.1.
Replies: 10
Views: 2420

Re: Thucydides 1.42.1.

Thanks. Somehow I found difficult the idea that "the younger one" should be the subject of πολεμήσει. But "if he finds himself at war" will do! As a separate question, what is the construction and meaning of τοῖς ὁμοίοις ἡμᾶς ἀμύνεσθαι? τοῖς ὁμοίοις dative of instrument: "to defend us with the like"...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:37 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Thucydides 1.42.1.
Replies: 10
Views: 2420

Thucydides 1.42.1.

‘ὧν ἐνθυμηθέντες καὶ νεώτερός τις παρὰ πρεσβυτέρου αὐτὰ μαθὼν ἀξιούτω τοῖς ὁμοίοις ἡμᾶς ἀμύνεσθαι, καὶ μὴ νομίσῃ δίκαια μὲν τάδε λέγεσθαι, ξύμφορα δέ, εἰ πολεμήσει, ἄλλα εἶναι. A small question about syntax: is πολεμήσει an impersonal construction, similar to ὕει "it's raining"? εἰ πολεμήσει "if the...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:15 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Newbie seeks good readers
Replies: 17
Views: 5542

Re: Newbie seeks good readers

By the way, I'd love to chat about Herodotus. So if you decide to read book III and post about it, I promise to participate!