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by Paul Derouda
Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:11 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: The origin of the alphabet
Replies: 6
Views: 3743

Re: The origin of the alphabet

Is there actually evidence of acrophonetism? I thought that idea was no longer that current, but maybe I'm wrong. There was a notion once that the signs were once part of Egyptian writing and denoted the first sounds of Egyptian words, but I thought this wasn't popular any more. But it seems to me a...
by Paul Derouda
Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:40 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 3.15.4 - death by bull's blood
Replies: 2
Views: 1340

Herodotus 3.15.4 - death by bull's blood

Νῦν δὲ μηχανώμενος κακὰ ὁ Ψαμμήνιτος ἔλαβε τὸν μισθόν· ἀπιστὰς γὰρ Αἰγυπτίους ἥλω· ἐπείτε δὲ ἐπάιστος ἐγένετο ὑπὸ Καμβύσεω, αἷμα ταύρου πιὼν ἀπέθανε παραχρῆμα. Οὕτω δὴ οὗτος ἐτελεύτησε. "In this case, Psammenitos got his reward for devising evil, for he was caught tempting Egyptians to rebel. As so...
by Paul Derouda
Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:02 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Antigone, lines 1-100
Replies: 11
Views: 3667

Re: Antigone, lines 1-100

Hi Bart! Nice to see you around.

ὦ κοινὸν αὐτάδελφον Ἰσμήνης κάρα - this is by far the most tortured line of poetry I've ever seen, in any language. It brings back to my mind Housman's parody, posted several times already on Textkit: http://faculty.georgetown.edu/jod/texts/housman.html.
by Paul Derouda
Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:52 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Thanks
Replies: 154
Views: 27010

Re: Asking help for answers

I think Mindy's native language is Chinese. I don't know Chinese, but I think English and Chinese have a lot in common here in not loading information in word endings, unlike Greek.
by Paul Derouda
Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:48 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Thucydides 1.14.1 Penteconters
Replies: 9
Views: 2695

Re: Thucydides 1.14.1 Penteconters

Thanks for you replies. I've been in bit of a hurry recently. Randy, I actually read a whole book about shipbuilding when reading Homer (whose conclusions I've come to view with some suspicions now). I'm not going to go that deep this time, I'd like to finish one day! I was just hoping for some easy...
by Paul Derouda
Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:57 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Diogenes Laertius 7.172
Replies: 12
Views: 3503

Re: Diogenes Laertius 7.172

The point seems to be that γαστρίζειν "punch the stomach" is a real word, while μηρίζειν is a nonce word coined by the boy (the only reference in LSJ is this passage); unfortunately, μηρίζειν immediately brings διαμηρίζειν to Hecaton's mind, a word which has a very specific meaning – not "to punch t...
by Paul Derouda
Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:26 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Thucydides 1.14.1 Penteconters
Replies: 9
Views: 2695

Re: Thucydides 1.14.1 Penteconters

In addition, apparently navis longa is warship in Latin. It seems to me that penteconters were ancient history by Roman times. Is the word a poetic loan word from Greek?
by Paul Derouda
Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:21 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Thucydides 1.14.1 Penteconters
Replies: 9
Views: 2695

Re: Thucydides 1.14.1 Penteconters

Yes, that's what the Greek seems to say, but in Herodotus I think penteconters and "long ships" were, if I remember correctly, the same thing. We're emptying our apartment to make some renovations, so most of my books are in cardboard boxes, and I can't check anything up. But I guess this kind of th...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:09 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Thucydides 1.14.1 Penteconters
Replies: 9
Views: 2695

Thucydides 1.14.1 Penteconters

δυνατώτατα γὰρ ταῦτα τῶν ναυτικῶν ἦν. φαίνεται δὲ καὶ ταῦτα πολλαῖς γενεαῖς ὕστερα γενόμενα τῶν Τρωικῶν τριήρεσι μὲν ὀλίγαις χρώμενα, πεντηκοντόροις δ᾽ ἔτι καὶ πλοίοις μακροῖς ἐξηρτυμένα ὥσπερ ἐκεῖνα. I've been reading somewhat lazily the first pages of Thucydides, without looking very deep into mat...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:55 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ΤΙΣ as self reference?!
Replies: 3
Views: 1551

Re: ΤΙΣ as self reference?!

I don't really know these law terms or the context, but I don't think that τις refers to Demosthenes. Here's how I understand this: καὶ κατηγορήσων, ἐπειδή τις εἰσάγει, πάρειμι... "Now that some one is bringing (=has brought) [this matter before the court], I am here to accuse him (Meidias? Not "som...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:13 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Μάλα / despite
Replies: 10
Views: 2876

Re: Μάλα / despite

Thanks, Bartek! I'm going to need it (good luck, I mean). Feel free to ask for help any time with the Anabasis! If you feel more comfortable with French than English, I think you can use that as well (Others will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we have a strict "English only" policy here ...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:32 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: OCT font
Replies: 14
Views: 3416

Re: OCT font

What surprises me with this papyrus is that the characters have serifs. I knew inscriptions in Latin had them, but I didn’t know they’d been copied into Greek as well.
by Paul Derouda
Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:36 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Μάλα / despite
Replies: 10
Views: 2876

Re: Μάλα / despite

I read the whole Anabasis in the Budé edition, so I think it's quite good. It was the first prose text of any length that I have read, and a good choice I think. For additional help, you could try Goodwin's commentary First Four Books of Xenophon’s Anabasis , available here on Textkit: http://www.te...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:20 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: color in Homer and Ancient Greek
Replies: 4
Views: 3217

Re: color in Homer and Ancient Greek

I think many of the Greek-English correspondences for color in the Odyssey as given in the video were wrong, and there are some missing like χλωρός yellow/green. I haven't read Gladstone though, so I don't know if these correspondences come from there or from somewhere else. I think the so-called co...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:43 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: What was the name of the Spartan education system?
Replies: 20
Views: 4751

Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

I know, the part where Leonidas yells "This is Sparta" was always the weak spot in this otherwise painstakingly accurate film adaptation. Just look for instance at the famous Spartan combat attire consisting of swim trunks and a cloak, widely attested on pottery and other pictographic evidence, or t...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:28 am
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: What was the name of the Spartan education system?
Replies: 20
Views: 4751

Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Note LSJ on ὅδε , especially: III. in sentences beginning this is . . , the Engl. this is freq. represented by nom. pl. neut. τάδε; ἐπεὶ οὐκ ἔρανος τάδε γ’ ἐστίν this is not an ἔρανος, Od.1.226; ἆρ’ οὐχ ὕβρις τάδ’; is not this insolence? S.OC883; of persons, Ἀπόλλων τάδ’ ἦν this was A., S. OT1329 (l...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:20 am
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: What was the name of the Spartan education system?
Replies: 20
Views: 4751

Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Perhaps that wasn't laconic enough... Maybe μανία; ἀλλ᾽ Σπάρτη γε τάδε.
by Paul Derouda
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:05 am
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: What was the name of the Spartan education system?
Replies: 20
Views: 4751

Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Of course, how you translate "this" depends on the context and I suppose you can render it in different ways. I took it that Bedwere was referring to the historically well-informed scene in Zack Snyder's film 300 . (Notice also the woman nodding assent to Leonidas: she's Gorgo, the same person recen...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:48 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: What was the name of the Spartan education system?
Replies: 20
Views: 4751

Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

If you want to say ”This is Sparta”, wouldn’t you rather use some form of οδε instead of ουτος? Ουτος often refers to something pertaining to the person addressed, while οδε is something close to the person speaking. And perhaps you would also use a particle, perhaps μεν or γαρ? So I would say οδε μ...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:02 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Thucydides - good translation
Replies: 34
Views: 8510

Re: Thucydides - good translation

The reason why I want another translation beside de Romilly's Budé (which I don't have but I can get) is that I like to have a couple different translations when I read a text, especially when it's as difficult as Thucydides. It's especially helpful to have translations into different languages, as ...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:08 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: the most essential Ancient Greek text poll
Replies: 18
Views: 4785

Re: the most essential Ancient Greek text poll

The foremost reason why the Iliad should be on the top of the list is that it's the one that was by far the most read in antiquity and later. There are more medieval manuscripts of the Iliad than of any other Greek text except the New Testament. If I understand you correctly you are saying that the...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:01 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Thucydides - good translation
Replies: 34
Views: 8510

Re: Thucydides - good translation

I've just cut open the pages about halfway in my copy of Alberti vol 1 By the way, this is the right way to do it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU7lqM6NfQo. Don't use a knife! Last time I cut the pages open with a knife (a Budé edition of Aristophanes) and they look pretty ugly now. I have two c...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:42 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Thucydides - good translation
Replies: 34
Views: 8510

Thucydides - good translation

I've decided to take a decisive step in my life. I'm going to start reading Thucydides with the objective of finishing it. I've just cut open the pages about halfway in my copy of Alberti vol 1 (unfortunately, I've been unable to get a hold of the hardback version) and I'm ready. I've already receiv...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:00 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: the most essential Ancient Greek text poll
Replies: 18
Views: 4785

Re: the most essential Ancient Greek text poll

...the Illiad...glorifies the invasion and prolonged occupation of an eastern country by a western one... It glorifies it only so as to condemn it. γλυκὺς ὁ πόλεμος τοῖς Ὁμήρου ἀπείροις. I would disagree with both assessments, but especially the first one. I think the author of the Iliad stays clea...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:08 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 1.189 νηυσιπέρητος
Replies: 9
Views: 2944

Re: Herodotus 1.189 νηυσιπέρητος

Thanks. I agree with you, and the reason why I was doubting my interpretation in the first place was that some quite reliable translations like Macauley and Waterfield give "navigable". But I guess Macauley started it and the others got it from him. Aristogoras seems to me just the kind guy you don'...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:27 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Homeri opera vs. Loeb vs. ??
Replies: 20
Views: 5057

Re: Homeri opera vs. Loeb vs. ??

I have a copy of the reprint of Willcock linked by Hylander. While the book is good, the binding of this reprint is awful. It fell apart immediately. I strongly suggest an older second hand non-reprint copy.
by Paul Derouda
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:50 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: How many eyes did the Cyclops have?
Replies: 12
Views: 5432

Re: How many eyes did the Cyclops have?

Doesn't this strongly suggest that "Homer" appropriated pre-existing legends about one-eyed monsters, and shaped it to the story-line of the Odyssey (motivating Poseidon's nearly implacable opposition to Odysseus)? If that's the case, then perhaps the blinding is "Homer's" invention. And isn’t it p...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:06 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: How many eyes did the Cyclops have?
Replies: 12
Views: 5432

Re: How many eyes did the Cyclops have?

The folk-tale is so widespread that it's unlikely that all of them are derived from the Odyssey. A short treatment can conveniently be found in West's Making of the Odyssey . (It's a bit lame though to refer to West all the time, since here at least he is basically summarizing what others have found...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:29 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Homeri opera vs. Loeb vs. ??
Replies: 20
Views: 5057

Re: Homeri opera vs. Loeb vs. ??

Basically I agree with what Hylander says. Don’t get an OCT, the new reprints are illegible. An old OCT printed in the 70s or earlier would be ok. And as far as the apparatus is concerned, the OCT is worthless. So if you want a scholarly Greek text with just an apparatus, get West (two volumes, very...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:11 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: How many eyes did the Cyclops have?
Replies: 12
Views: 5432

Re: How many eyes did the Cyclops have?

It is true that it’s never said explicitly in the Odyssey, so it must have been common knowledge when the story was told. The part where Odysseus slinks out of the cave hidden under sheep certainly requires that the Cyclops is blind. The story of a one-eyed evil giant who is blinded recurs in folkta...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:26 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: John 6:4 τὸ πάσχα
Replies: 29
Views: 5265

Re: John 6:4 τὸ πάσχα

I'm over in Wisconsin nowadays. Paul might appreciate knowing that where I'm at, it's 30 degrees (Fahrenheit) colder than Helsinki today. The lakes all froze over last week. But in California there was an earthquake this morning, centered under my old apartment, which I missed. For those of you who...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:12 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: John 6:4 τὸ πάσχα
Replies: 29
Views: 5265

Re: John 6:4 τὸ πάσχα

Just to make it clear, I have zero actual experience on manuscripts. Greek is my hobby and textual transmission is one of the subject I've studied, especially as far as it concerns Homer (Was there a Homer?! Who, why, when wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey!? That sort of thing...). Mwh is the real exp...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:17 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: John 6:4 τὸ πάσχα
Replies: 29
Views: 5265

Re: John 6:4 τὸ πάσχα

What mwh means, is that if the text originally had ἦν δὲ έγγύς ἡ ἑορτὴ τῶν Ἰουδαίων, someone would have added τὸ πάσχα in the margin as an explanatory gloss. The person who made the next copy of the text would have then thought that the word in the margin was a correction for a word that had acciden...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:52 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Greek reader reviews
Replies: 101
Views: 62748

Re: Greek reader reviews

Don't take me wrong: I didn't think you'd never heard about Thucydides, that was a rhetorical move :D , and I don't think he was a charlatan, he wrote to say something – but he could have made his points more plainly. I'm sure he wrote the way he did to seem ever smarter and more important than he w...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:35 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Greek reader reviews
Replies: 101
Views: 62748

Re: Greek reader reviews

Modern languages have in their corpus lots of texts that are written to be easy to read. If these ever existed in Ancient Greek they no longer do. On the other hand, no ancient Greek or Latin author that I am aware of wrote with the intention of being difficult to read. Ever heard about Thucydides....
by Paul Derouda
Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:30 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Lead us not into temptation
Replies: 27
Views: 6004

Re: Lead us not into temptation

I’d never thought that it might be anything but the abstract idea of evil, and thus neuter. But indeed, why not masculine? ”Do not take/lead/force us into trial, but save us from the bad guy.” This reminds me of the passage where Satan abducts Jesus and tempts him in various ways. I’m nit familiar w...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:38 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Lead us not into temptation
Replies: 27
Views: 6004

Re: Lead us not into temptation

What is the article doing in τοῦ πονηροῦ? Couldn't it be a class referent, a referent back to πειρασμός, or a referent to a known individual (Matthew 13:19)? Save us from evil Save us from the evil trial/temptation Save us from the evil one Smyth 1023. Neuter, when the substantive idea is thing in ...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:37 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 1.189 νηυσιπέρητος
Replies: 9
Views: 2944

Re: Herodotus 1.189 νηυσιπέρητος

The river doesn't look very large on the photo, but nowadays it must be different than it used to be, as Cyrus punished the river by dividing it into 360 channels!
by Paul Derouda
Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:48 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 1.189 νηυσιπέρητος
Replies: 9
Views: 2944

Herodotus 1.189 νηυσιπέρητος

ἐπείτε δὲ ὁ Κῦρος πορευόμενος ἐπὶ τὴν Βαβυλῶνα ἐγίνετο ἐπὶ Γύνδῃ ποταμῷ, τοῦ αἱ μὲν πηγαὶ ἐν Ματιηνοῖσι ὄρεσι, ῥέει δὲ διὰ Δαρδανέων, ἐκδιδοῖ δὲ ἐς ἕτερον ποταμὸν Τίγρην, ὁ δὲ παρὰ Ὦπιν πόλιν ῥέων ἐς τὴν Ἐρυθρὴν θάλασσαν ἐκδιδοῖ, τοῦτον δὴ τὸν Γύνδην ποταμὸν ὡς διαβαίνειν ἐπειρᾶτο ὁ Κῦρος ἐόντα νηυσ...