Search found 624 matches

by seneca2008
Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:47 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὅτι + optative
Replies: 12
Views: 342

Re: ὅτι + optative

Again, with just a handful of examples from the same work, it's difficult to tell. Is this just a feature of Xenophon's narrative style? Perhaps it would be helpful to see the notes to 41.13 : Note 1: The optative is the more common construction throughout classical prose (discounting indicatives w...
by seneca2008
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:56 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Wilson's Odyssey - again
Replies: 16
Views: 376

Re: Wilson's Odyssey - again

Wilson or Pope can write Homer-inspired poetry, and use "voice" for αυτη, if we accept that it's not really translation. But seeing certain people, who really are capable of better if they'll put forth the effort, not notice that the Greek says something different, because apparently they are readi...
by seneca2008
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:43 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Wilson's Odyssey - again
Replies: 16
Views: 376

Re: Wilson's Odyssey - again

One of the things that makes Textkit work is a dedication to the Greek and Latin languages. Translations are a subject of commentary, but what we are here to engage with is the original language, which we try understand correctly and fluently. In furtherance of this, I sometimes try to provide a bi...
by seneca2008
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:33 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Wilson's Odyssey - again
Replies: 16
Views: 376

Re: Wilson's Odyssey - again

seanjonesbw wrote:seneca2008 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:40 am
What exactly is left to be desired here? A curious Freudian expression.
Easy tiger.
Point taken! :D
by seneca2008
Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:01 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: accusative of possession??
Replies: 4
Views: 126

Re: accusative of possession??

...."per mediam vallem ipsam" I don't know that I would ever have read that as "of the valley". I would instead have translated it: through the middle valley itself (as if there was more than two valleys to choose from). Why does valley seem to act like the genitive even though it is in the accusat...
by seneca2008
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:40 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Wilson's Odyssey - again
Replies: 16
Views: 376

Re: Wilson's Odyssey - again

I'm afraid I'm can't really engage with you on the literary merits of various English translations. I don't think that they tend to have much literary merit in general. Your second sentence contradicts your first! Sean was asking you to engage with other poetry which informs his reception of Wilson...
by seneca2008
Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:45 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140
Replies: 29
Views: 713

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140

seneca2008 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:21 am I am not objecting to any translation. There’s the difference between us. You object to none because they’re all acts of reception. I object to all because they all distort the Greek. Traduttori traditori. In general yes. But in this specific case I was ...
by seneca2008
Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:37 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Wilson's Odyssey - again
Replies: 16
Views: 376

Re: Wilson's Odyssey - again

Wilson calls attention to her gender in every interview, and specifically says that this is why we should read her translation, because she pays special attention to things that male translators miss. This is simply untrue. I have heard her complain that this is all journalists want to talk to her ...
by seneca2008
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:44 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὅτι + optative
Replies: 12
Views: 342

Re: ὅτι + optative

In English, the distinction in the Greek identified by CGCG can be approximated by shifting between direct and indirect speech: "The scouts who had been sent ahead said, 'They're not horsemen.' Rather, they said, they were yoke-animals grazing there." "The women answered he wasn't there. 'No [ἀλλ᾿]...
by seneca2008
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:02 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140
Replies: 29
Views: 713

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140

The bit just after he's boffed Polyphemus in the eye is a good example of what I mean. I would take this as an instance of laughing at the distress of one's enemies, but I can see that it can be interpreted as Odysseus being very self satisfied. Halliwell (Greek Laughter 2008) makes the point in co...
by seneca2008
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:02 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140
Replies: 29
Views: 713

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140

Of these, Wilson's error is surprising to me, given her chick thing . Thank you again for pointing it out. I don't regard it as an error and I don't like your language. You may want to be careful with that web app. It's wrong here, and misinformed you. Thank you. I fear whatever the shortcomings of...
by seneca2008
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:47 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140
Replies: 29
Views: 713

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140

Odysseus seems to me to fulfil the Jungian role of the trickster much better than that of the hero, and the Odyssey sets up a series of challenges which he overcomes through his smarts and charm, flouting normal rules of courageous action (even though he is ‘brave’ when he needs to be). I am intere...
by seneca2008
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:21 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140
Replies: 29
Views: 713

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140

Seneca was objecting to Pope's version (I think) with ἀϋτή as "voice". Unless he was thinking of another translator. I am not objecting to any translation. This is the only occurrence of ἀϋτή in the Odyssey as compared to 24 in the Iliad (according to the Chicago Homer analysis) and this informs ho...
by seneca2008
Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:00 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὅτι + optative
Replies: 12
Views: 342

Re: ὅτι + optative

This from the Cambridge Grammar might help. There is a lot more explanatory material but I won't paste it here because it takes too long to correct the Greek . 41.13 In those cases in which the reporter has a choice, there is a nuanced difference between retaining the mood of direct speech in histor...
by seneca2008
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:25 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140
Replies: 29
Views: 713

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140

119 “ὤ μοι ἐγώ, τέων αὖτε βροτῶν ἐς γαῖαν ἱκάνω; 120 ἦ ῥ ̓ οἵ γ ̓ ὑβρισταί τε καὶ ἄγριοι οὐδὲ δίκαιοι, 121 ἦε φιλόξεινοι καί σφιν νόος ἐστὶ θεουδής; 122 ὥς τέ με κουράων ἀμφήλυθε θῆλυς ἀϋτή· 123 νυμφάων, αἳ ἔχουσ ̓ ὀρέων αἰπεινὰ κάρηνα 124 καὶ πηγὰς ποταμῶν καὶ πίσεα ποιήεντα. I don't find any trac...
by seneca2008
Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:18 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140
Replies: 29
Views: 713

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140

I don't want to seem like I'm ragging on Odysseus here. He's a rich tapestry that you find new things in whenever you return to him. It's just interesting that he seems to appeal to modern sensibilities more than to ancient ones (if Attic representations and survival of manuscripts are any yardstic...
by seneca2008
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:35 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Catilinarian Conspiracy - Did it Really Happen?
Replies: 2
Views: 135

Re: Catilinarian Conspiracy - Did it Really Happen?

It seems to me there are a few hypotheses that are at least as plausible as the Catiline's conspiracy really having happened: Although I think your post is a provocation it does raise a few interesting questions. I don't find your alternative suggestions the least bit persuasive. You would be on sa...
by seneca2008
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:19 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: JACT: Exercise 1H-J4. accents on ἐστί
Replies: 5
Views: 157

Re: JACT: Exercise 1H-J4. accents on ἐστί

I was taught Greek initially by someone who ignored the accents. This was a disaster which I never really recovered from in my formal studies. So I am using Probert to remedy this defect. I find it very clear and informative. Probert gives some other interesting info quoting Herodian, Hermann's rule...
by seneca2008
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:50 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: JACT: Exercise 1H-J4. accents on ἐστί
Replies: 5
Views: 157

Re: JACT: Exercise 1H-J4. accents on ἐστί

Probert "A new short guide to the Accentuation of Ancient Greek" p 144 says: "The form ἐστί, normally enclitic, has a fully accented variant ἔστι. This fully accented variant is used at the beginning of a verse sentence or clause and when the word expresses existence or possibility ...." Hope this h...
by seneca2008
Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:52 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Apuleius, Metamorphoses 1.16
Replies: 7
Views: 364

Re: Apuleius, Metamorphoses 1.16

The previous lines are: Iam iam, grabatule,’ inquam ‘animo meo carissime, qui mecum tot aerumnas exanclasti conscius et arbiter quae nocte gesta sunt, quem solum in meo reatu testem innocentiae citare possum, tu mihi ad inferos festinanti sumministra telum salutare.’ The subject of intextus is grabu...
by seneca2008
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:40 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118
Replies: 26
Views: 1253

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118

sean wrote:The bikini ladies are cool, though. What are they doing in the top left?
The first figure seems to have some weights. Perhaps training? The second figure has a discus.
by seneca2008
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:09 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118
Replies: 26
Views: 1253

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118

The boar is less bucolic, more threatening, and invites more questions about the power dynamic between Artemis and these animals. A good point, although I think the power dynamic is unambiguous. The threatening nature of boars, which mwh alluded to above, is a loss in this translation. Otherwise I ...
by seneca2008
Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:30 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118
Replies: 26
Views: 1253

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118

I am somewhat surprised by the language used here to describe the translation of this line by Fitzgerald. Is it really appropriate to describe it as a "grotesque misunderstanding of τερπομένη κάπροισι" or a "blunder" as if we were "Gradgrind like" marking his homework. Fitzgerald was a poet and he i...
by seneca2008
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:14 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: κατά, Meno 73d
Replies: 4
Views: 406

Re: κατά, Meno 73d

LSJ does have 7. [select] in respect of, concerning, “μὴ κατ᾽ ἀνθρώπων σκόπει μόνον τοῦτο” Pl. Phd.70d; “κ. τῶν ἄλλων τεχνῶν τοιαῦτα εὑρήσομεν” Id.Sph.253b; οἱ κ. Δημοσθένους ἔπαινοι praises bestowed on D., Aeschin.3.50; ἐρεῖν or λέγειν κατά τινος to say of one, Pl.Ap.37b, Prt.323b, etc.; “εἰ κ. θηλ...
by seneca2008
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:35 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Latin Vocabulary Books?
Replies: 9
Views: 465

Re: Latin Vocabulary Books?

I wondered if that is what you had in mind. This might be what you are looking for: Essential Latin Vocabulary: The 1,425 Most Common Words Occurring in the Actual Writings of over 200 Latin Authors Mark A. E. Williams https://www.amazon.com/Essential-Latin-Vocabulary-Occurring-Writings/dp/0615702503
by seneca2008
Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:27 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: τίς οὖν ἡ παιδεία;
Replies: 2
Views: 152

Re: τίς οὖν ἡ παιδεία;

Τίς οὖν ἡ παιδεία; ἢ χαλεπὸν εὑρεῖν βελτίω τῆς ὑπὸ τοῦ πολλοῦ χρόνου ηὑρημένης;

Plat. Rep. 2.376e

What is this education then? Or is it difficult to find anything better than what has been discovered over many years?

Loeb translation.
by seneca2008
Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:27 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Prot 323a
Replies: 3
Views: 252

Re: Prot 323a

This looks fairly straightforward unless I am missing something?

as it is held that (plus dat and infinitive)..., or (sc. if it is not) states can't exist.
by seneca2008
Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:25 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: long alpha/short alpha
Replies: 10
Views: 436

Re: long alpha/short alpha

I must have read the paragraph on p. 39 that you are talking about a long time ago (I am VERY slow), at a time where it was "over my head" and didn't register. It's not because I don't read the book with attention: up to my current unit (17) the pages are falling out, dirty, full of my notes, etc. ...
by seneca2008
Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:40 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92
Replies: 37
Views: 1323

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92

mwh I respect your opinion but I disagree. I don't think its as clear cut as you present it. In the present passage we have "δμώς" which is generally translated as a slave. As there is no evidence in the text (I stand ready to be corrected) that what some call "slaves" were in fact "free people" I a...
by seneca2008
Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:07 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92
Replies: 37
Views: 1323

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92

I hadn't considered how the the way I was taught to translate certain words (ancilla as handmaiden, servus as servant, to use Latin examples) glosses over the real status of the people in the text before, so that's a new perspective for me. This the most rewarding piece of feedback I have received ...
by seneca2008
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:27 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: long alpha/short alpha
Replies: 10
Views: 436

Re: long alpha/short alpha

How can I know, when looking at any word containing alpha, whether the alpha is short or long? This is a matter of memorising the lengths of vowels as you go and re-memorising when you have forgotten. Textbooks often specify long vowels which might be doubtful. Even Probert's guide to accentuation ...
by seneca2008
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:30 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92
Replies: 37
Views: 1323

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92

I am sure Aetos is right. The Greek given in Dindorf is what appears in the manuscript. Don't forget that when the manuscripts were copied so too were the scholia. I was having a quick look at H in the British library. I am not which of the Harleianus Musei Britannici manuscripys has this particular...
by seneca2008
Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:10 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: when ı learn latin declensions should ı write their meanings?
Replies: 5
Views: 187

Re: when ı learn latin declensions should ı write their meanings?

It depends what you find most helpful. When I learned declensions I would write eg port-a -ae -ae -am -a (although not being American I put the accusative second). "Of, to and by" are going to be the same in every declension you learn so you can probably drop them as soon as you are familiar with th...
by seneca2008
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:51 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Compounds of cado and caedo
Replies: 3
Views: 169

Re: Compounds of cado and caedo

The handbook of Latin homonyms is available here on line https://archive.org/details/handbookofl ... _0/page/n4
by seneca2008
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:00 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92
Replies: 37
Views: 1323

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92

I'm hoping this is the week that someone explains to me what on earth I'm supposed to do with Homeric scholia. I think Wikipedia might be a good starting point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_scholarship it adds a bit of detail to the list given by Aetos. More generally "Brill's Companion to...
by seneca2008
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:37 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92
Replies: 37
Views: 1323

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92

This group is only a few weeks old, but the focus so far has been on the Greek and on wider problems of interpretation, so I'd be very keen to get a bit more translation going on. I think its useful that people contribute translations as a means of trying to understand the Greek but a more efficien...
by seneca2008
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:43 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92
Replies: 37
Views: 1323

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92

As I have said before I find this passage amusing and a parody of heroic action. 3.475-481 is a parallel passage describing the departure of Telemachus from Nestor's palace to Sparta. “παῖδες ἐμοί, ἄγε Τηλεμάχῳ καλλίτριχας ἵππους ζεύξαθ᾿ ὑφ᾿ ἅρματ᾿ ἄγοντες, ἵνα πρήσσῃσιν ὁδοῖο.” ὣς ἔφαθ᾿, οἱ δ᾿ ἄρα ...
by seneca2008
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:41 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: long alpha/short alpha
Replies: 10
Views: 436

Re: long alpha/short alpha

I cannot off hand think of a Greek verb that begins with a long alpha. My guess is that such a verb would be marked as long in the dictionary. Smyth gives a helpful table of augments but doesn’t list any verbs beginning with a long alpha. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3...
by seneca2008
Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:18 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Learning Latin only to understand Classics.
Replies: 20
Views: 1114

Re: Learning Latin only to understand Classics.

Amazingly, they have kept the Greek program alive to this day!
Excellent news.
by seneca2008
Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:01 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Crit 44d
Replies: 7
Views: 388

Re: Crit 44d

"But you see, Socrates, that you have to consider the opinion of the crowd." Or "But you see Socrates, that the opinion of the crowd must be considered." There is a difference, and in other contexts, it could be a decisive difference. It's incorrect to dismiss the question as meaningless. I am not ...