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by seneca2008
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:48 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 78-102
Replies: 21
Views: 479

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 78-102

"And to think someone actually had to move all these stones!" At archaeological sites this comment along with "how did they get x there" makes me wince. I suppose its a fair enough question its just not something I find very interesting. The usual answer is they had slaves to do it for them and no ...
by seneca2008
Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:18 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 78-102
Replies: 21
Views: 479

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 78-102

I've included the quote from Hix, who you will no doubt be shocked to hear is not an expert in the Homeric manuscript tradition, because he provides the reminder that, even if we don't know who they are, someone wrote down these tens of thousands of words and that's an amazing thing in itself. Than...
by seneca2008
Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:02 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader
Replies: 53
Views: 2951

Re: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader

Seneca - I haven't read Gadamer, but since you seem to like him (and since this thread is wildly off in a direction I never ever would have imagined!), I'm curious if you've read his The Beginning of Philosophy (or perhaps that is indeed the book you are referring to?). This summer I read André Lak...
by seneca2008
Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:39 am
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Ancient Greek Plays
Replies: 2
Views: 210

Re: Ancient Greek Plays

Off the top of my head. Michael Cacoyannis directed Iphigenia, The Trojan women, Electra and these are available on DVD (In Greek with subtitles). Pasolini did a version of Medea with la Callas. It's compulsive viewing. (Did you read Medea in Greek? Our friend Mastronarde has written a very helpful ...
by seneca2008
Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:13 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader
Replies: 53
Views: 2951

Re: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader

Callisper In much of this thread I have argued against points of view which people have put forward. My own positive point of view is Gadmar's which is loosely that we are trapped in out own time and that our interpretations depend on that fact. we are incapable of stepping outside our own time. We ...
by seneca2008
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:42 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 22, Part II #5
Replies: 6
Views: 293

Re: Unit 22, Part II #5

“ concerning the things of life we will become wealthy” is an example of translationese. huh???????????????????????? Translationese is when people write unidiomatic English trying to show they understand the Original language. Get into the habit of writing translations which are idiomatic. τοῦτον τ...
by seneca2008
Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:20 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 22, Part II #5
Replies: 6
Views: 293

Re: Unit 22, Part II #5

What does the idiomatic expression “ τοῦτον τὸν τρόπον” mean? If stuck look in unit 17. “ concerning the things of life we will become wealthy” is an example of translationese always aim to write good idiomatic English. It wouldn’t have required much to reorder this sentence. We will become rich in ...
by seneca2008
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:54 pm
Forum: Greek Textbooks and Study Groups
Topic: Teaching Ancient Languages: A selected guide to available material
Replies: 1
Views: 393

Teaching Ancient Languages: A selected guide to available material

In the learning greek thread Lukas asked about alternatives to Mastronarde.

This guide seems balanced and covers both latin and Greek.

http://coderch-greek-latin-grammar.weeb ... guages.pdf
by seneca2008
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:31 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 22, Part IV, #3
Replies: 23
Views: 937

Re: Unit 22, Part IV, #3

"They accused him falsely" vs. "They accused him of false things." The Greek theoretically could be read either way, but the English original makes clear that an adverbial accusative was intended, and that would be the normal preference. And at least you didn't quote a Latin grammar in response to ...
by seneca2008
Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:54 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 22, Part IV, #3
Replies: 23
Views: 937

Re: Unit 22, Part IV, #3

Any preference between JACT, Athenaze, Crosby, (or Thrasymachus!)? I think that if you were to start on book one of Athenaze you would have a happier experience. You could probably progress quite rapidly. JACT is good but I think would requires a lot of additional external help. These are the textb...
by seneca2008
Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:45 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 22, Part IV, #3
Replies: 23
Views: 937

Re: Unit 22, Part IV, #3

Wow. I missed the other two, but they are neuter. I give up on this sentence. I think this underlines the fact that you are going too fast through this book. The idea is that you should learn by heart the paradigms M. gives before you attempt the exercises. Its a very unglamorous part of learning G...
by seneca2008
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:24 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 22, Part IV, #3
Replies: 23
Views: 937

Re: Unit 22, Part IV, #3

One other question: Should ψευδῆ be in the plural? You are guessing. Try to work it out. What case number and gender is ψευδῆ? Hint if you can't work it out look on p. 181. You have to learn the endings! So what do you know about the cases taken by κατηγορέω? Accusations (accusative ) are made agai...
by seneca2008
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:00 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Possessive Adjectives?
Replies: 12
Views: 608

Re: Possessive Adjectives?

Since you asked... :) b. A few adjectives are indeclinable: as, damnās, frūgī (really a dative of service, see § 382. 1. N.2), nēquam (originally an adverb), necesse, and the pronominal forms tot, quot, aliquot, totidem. Potis is often used as an indeclinable adjective, but sometimes has pote in th...
by seneca2008
Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:43 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Possessive Adjectives?
Replies: 12
Views: 608

Re: Possessive Adjectives?

Page 187 is clear to you but not to me. I was clueless whether the possessive adjectives were declined or not. Sometimes I have to approach this board and find out what the author means. Perhaps the way I put it was unhelpful. What I meant was that M. simply lists the adjective with masc, fem and n...
by seneca2008
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:03 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Possessive Adjectives?
Replies: 12
Views: 608

Re: Possessive Adjectives?

You are right with that example. It still left me wondering if possessive adjectives are declined. I think I have an answer by this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lN5DpANGFBM Lukas I am glad you managed to sort this out. It is clear from the list in Mastronade on p 187 that possessive adjec...
by seneca2008
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:30 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 21, Part II, Number 4
Replies: 9
Views: 697

Re: Unit 21, Part II, Number 4

So do you now understand what is going on in this sentence? It doesn't matter that δεῖ is impersonal.
by seneca2008
Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:23 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 21, Part II, Number 4
Replies: 9
Views: 697

Re: Unit 21, Part II, Number 4

An infinitive is not a finite form. So which word is the finite verb in your direct statement? “ The infinitive, a nonfinite form of the verb (see Unit 5 Prelim.), is a verbal noun. As a verb form it has tense (or aspect) and voice and can govern noun complements and adverbial modifiers. As a noun, ...
by seneca2008
Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:52 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 21, Part II, Number 4
Replies: 9
Views: 697

Re: Unit 21, Part II, Number 4

So what is the finite verb which needs to be put into the infinitive?
by seneca2008
Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:15 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 21, Part II, Number 4
Replies: 9
Views: 697

Re: Unit 21, Part II, Number 4

The old men said that the women must obey the laws This is indirect speech. What is the corresponding direct statement ? Which finite verb has to be written as an Infinitive when the direct speech is turned into indirect speech? Do I need to place μέν in the first phrase? The old men said ......, w...
by seneca2008
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:08 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 48-77
Replies: 9
Views: 1000

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 48-77

Sean thanks also. But don't abandon this project so quickly. I have had little time for this recently but will aim to put some time aside this week.
by seneca2008
Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:50 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 21, Part II, Number 2
Replies: 12
Views: 996

Re: Unit 21, Part II, Number 2

2. What if someone wrote, "death of good men from the plague." Would plague be in the genitive or would it also be in the accusative? Go back to your original sentence "Strife and violence are harmful to a city in the same way: each is responsible for the death of good men". In your new phrase you ...
by seneca2008
Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:33 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 21, Part II, Number 2
Replies: 12
Views: 996

Re: Unit 21, Part II, Number 2

1. The dative of advantage seems quite close to the accusative of result. I don't know what you mean by the accusative of result. Can you point to where in M you got this term? Do you mean that the (transitive) verb acts on an object and produces some result? Of course direct and indirect objects a...
by seneca2008
Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:59 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 21, Part II, Number 2
Replies: 12
Views: 996

Re: Unit 21, Part II, Number 2

1. I was uncertain for a long time whether to put πόλις in the accusative or dative. "Strife and violence are harmful to a city" The meaning of this is Strife and violence are harmful for a city. And this is clearly the dative. I suppose if you put city into the accusative that could mean "in respe...
by seneca2008
Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:48 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 21, Part II
Replies: 6
Views: 694

Re: Unit 21, Part II

I was having trouble with "would" I have not given a good explanation on this. Do you understand why there is an infinitive in this sentence "ἡγοῦντο γὰρ ῥᾳδίως αὐτοὺς κρατήσειν."? This is an example of indirect discourse. In direct speech what they believed was that "they will easily defeat them"....
by seneca2008
Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:52 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 21, Part II
Replies: 6
Views: 694

Re: Unit 21, Part II

The answer book wrote, Εκεὶνην μὲν τὴν ἠμέραν οἱ ῾ιππῆς τὸ στρατόπεδον ἐφθύλλατον, τῆ δὲ ὔτερᾳ ἠμέρᾳ πρὸς τοὺς πολεμίους ἤλάσαν. ἡγοῦντο γὰρ ῥᾳδίως αὐτοὺς κρατήσειν. "For that day the cavalry guarded the camp, but on the next day they rode against the enemy, for they believed they would easily defe...
by seneca2008
Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:28 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unemphatic v. Emphatic
Replies: 5
Views: 607

Re: Unemphatic v. Emphatic

OK, so it sounds like emphasis. Perhaps it is similar to italics in English? The Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek 29.1 uses the terms "contrastive" and "non-contrastive" as an alternative to the traditional "emphatic" and "unemphatic". "29.4 For the first- and second-person personal pronouns, t...
by seneca2008
Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:42 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unemphatic v. Emphatic
Replies: 5
Views: 607

Re: Unemphatic v. Emphatic

Lukas if you look at the examples under the chart I think the distinction will become clearer. "The singular unemphatic forms (oblique cases only) are enclitic, and these are in fact the forms more commonly used. Unemphatic pronouns tend to come second in their clause or phrase. The nominative forms...
by seneca2008
Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:11 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 20, Part III. #11
Replies: 17
Views: 1047

Re: Unit 20, Part III. #11

Don't be too hard on Lukas. Mastronarde is a dense, highly concentrated and difficult textbook. I am sorry if my contributions to this thread were a bit terse. In no way do I want to deter Lukas from asking questions. His questions are of course legitimate and the only way to make progress is to as...
by seneca2008
Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:47 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 20, Part III. #11
Replies: 17
Views: 1047

Re: Unit 20, Part III. #11

I'm sorry, but it isn't helpful to the OP to cite examples that are not pertinent and in fact actually illustrate the opposite point. I endorse and underline this. There is a lot of material in Mastronarde and I try to frame my responses using this textbook. Often Lukas has simply not revised the m...
by seneca2008
Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:33 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Museo Archeologico Nazionale Firenze
Replies: 9
Views: 1273

Re: Museo Archeologico Nazionale Firenze

Thanks to everyone for suggestions. As ever there is far too much to do and even in a week too little time. Sean When I was younger I was on holiday in Italy with my parents and we got lost in Naples and ended up in some dodgy area with kids throwing stones (half heartedly I think) at our car. Subse...
by seneca2008
Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:12 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 20, Part III. #11
Replies: 17
Views: 1047

Re: Unit 20, Part III. #11

was wondering if position alone of αὐτοὶ tells me if it goes with σύμμαχοι or ᾿Αθηναίων? Or do I need to take the second step of deciding who it is who gets sick? You need to follow the grammar and pay attention to the cases. οἰ σύμμαχοι , ἐπεὶ εἰς τὴν τῶν ᾿Αθηναίων χώραν ἦλθον, καὶ αὐτοὶ ἐνόσησαν ...
by seneca2008
Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:07 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 20, a Word from Clearchus
Replies: 7
Views: 695

Re: Unit 20, a Word from Clearchus

Lukas wrote: Yes, I was not sure of how to translate the phrase and the literal was all I could think of, but it seemed awkward.
We spoke about this and you now recognise that this phrase is in the vocative case. The giveaway is “ ὦ”.
by seneca2008
Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:25 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 20, a Word from Clearchus
Replies: 7
Views: 695

Re: Unit 20, a Word from Clearchus

I think you are also having trouble with “ ὦ ἄνδρες στρατιῶται,”. Do you recognise the case? It’s a formula for example in Lysias on the murder of Eratosthenes you have “ὦ ἄνδρες”, in Plato Apology “ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι” and in Lysias 12 “ ὦ ἄνδρες δικασταί“. This last one has an old fashioned but idio...
by seneca2008
Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:05 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Imperfect v. Aorist
Replies: 7
Views: 731

Re: Imperfect v. Aorist

I might be wrong, but it seems to me that the aorist would be more likely used about a decision that is final, whereas the imperfect would be more appropriate in a context where the selected course of action is open to revision if the circumstances change. This is how I see the Thucydidean passages...
by seneca2008
Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:14 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Imperfect v. Aorist
Replies: 7
Views: 731

Re: Imperfect v. Aorist

I am not sure whether to put the verbs into the imperfect or aorist tense. On the one hand, someone may resolve but fail to do something, so it would not be just a one time act. On the other hand, one could be successful and it would be a one time event. I think this is not the way to look at it. I...
by seneca2008
Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:40 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: What Latin words could I use or make up to mean "pan-causal temporal loop"
Replies: 9
Views: 836

Re: What Latin words could I use or make up to mean "pan-causal temporal loop"

I think you first need to work out what if anything this means in English.
by seneca2008
Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:17 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ..., ὁ δὲ σοφόν τι ἐζήτει καὶ ἐλθεῖν οὐκ ἤθελεν.
Replies: 5
Views: 631

Re: ..., ὁ δὲ σοφόν τι ἐζήτει καὶ ἐλθεῖν οὐκ ἤθελεν.

Who is the subject and what is the object? You correctly worked out that “Therefore, it seems that the gender or case of the adjective and of the indefinite do not match the definite article's gender or case.” So what does that tell you? The sentence is “τὸν Σωκράτη εἰς τὸν οἶκον πολλάκις ἐκαλοῦμεν,...
by seneca2008
Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:48 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Museo Archeologico Nazionale Firenze
Replies: 9
Views: 1273

Re: Museo Archeologico Nazionale Firenze

Thank you to all for your helpful replies. I have been to Florence several times before but never to this museum. I will read mwh's article when I am there. It looks very interesting. I too loved Florence from the first although I think that's true of almost every place I have been in Italy. I have ...
by seneca2008
Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:02 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26
Replies: 15
Views: 1253

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26

My printed Allen has ὣς. Perseus and the Loeb have ὧς.

Probert says ὧς "thus" (after καί or οὐδ') otherwise it's ὣς . She notes that this derives from Apollonius Dyscolus and other grammarians but that modern editors do not always follow this rule.

Strange.
by seneca2008
Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:55 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Velar with Strong Aorist?
Replies: 2
Views: 524

Re: Velar with Strong Aorist?

Page 156 states that a stem ending with a velar in a weak (sigma) aorist changes a velar plosive to a ξ. It did not mention the strong aorist, so I guess a velar stays as is with a strong aorist? I do not see a sigma being added to a strong aorist either, but I wanted to make sure. Take this one st...