Search found 680 matches

by seneca2008
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:28 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294
Replies: 22
Views: 796

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

I have now looked at Garvie, Odyssey, Books VI-VIII Cambridge University Press 1994 (Green and yellow series) on line 288. He notes "Nausicaa means that it is wrong for a girl to have dealings with a man before she is publicly married to him, but for the ambiguity in these words [ἀνδράσι μίσγηται] s...
by seneca2008
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:04 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader
Replies: 33
Views: 698

Re: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader

Bart I can see your point of view. I think the answer is that we proceed by trying to be transparent about what we are saying, accepting that this often (always) is going to involve contradictions. We need to question our "judgements" to see in what way they are a product of a particular way of thin...
by seneca2008
Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:19 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader
Replies: 33
Views: 698

Re: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader

Your dislike of judgement instead of understanding doesn’t seem to stop you from making judgements yourself. I am sure you make a fair point. Just like Keller my enthusiasm leads me to make more forceful statements than are perhaps warranted. My intention is to be polemical and provide an alternati...
by seneca2008
Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:08 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader
Replies: 33
Views: 698

Re: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader

Regarding Thyestes, so far I see there are editions by Boyle (very expensive), Tarrant and Guth (German). Any suggestions? I used Tarrant as Boyle had not appeared when I read it. If you can't get it from a University library I agree it is very expensive. Boyle is an ardent champion for Senecan Tra...
by seneca2008
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:35 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader
Replies: 33
Views: 698

Re: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader

That's only because I'm just not there yet! I feel I need a lot more work in Attic prose before I'll be ready for tragedy. I am sure with your experience you would not find tragedy particularly hard. Medea would be a good introduction and there is an excellent commentary by Mastronarde. Reading at ...
by seneca2008
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:42 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader
Replies: 33
Views: 698

Re: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader

My understanding is that Keller is saying something subtler. I don't necessarily detect hostility towards the (first kind of) commentaries you mention. Thats a fair point. I really only used Keller's piece as a hook to hang my thoughts about those on this board who think (as Keller undoubtedly also...
by seneca2008
Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:12 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader
Replies: 33
Views: 698

Re: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader

I think you might be referring to my Odyssey read-through, and my aside there that "language errors are self-correcting and commentary errors are self-perpetuating"? It was a true statement; though I wouldn't decry commentaries, if you mean 'decry' as in coinage. I've used them frequently enough. A...
by seneca2008
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:32 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 62
Views: 2384

Re: Vacation reading

Paul Derouda wrote:αὐτοκασιγνήτη is a full sister (same mother and father) while κασιγνήτη is any sister, full or half (similarly for ((αὐτο)κασίγνοτος "brother").
This reminds me of the first line of Antigone:

‘Ὦ κοινὸν αὐτάδελφον Ἰσμήνης κάρα“
by seneca2008
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:34 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader
Replies: 33
Views: 698

Re: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader

I feel sorry for picking on the poor blind girl now. Blind and deaf. Take a little time to think about that. I think the personal story of great courage shown in the face of what to me would have been insuperable obstacles should not insulate the opinions offered as beyond criticism. There are too ...
by seneca2008
Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:39 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader
Replies: 33
Views: 698

Re: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader

As superficially attractive as these warm words might be, you will not be surprised that it is a position that I have little sympathy with. Whilst a love for the subject is perhaps something that we can all endorse, it is no substitute for rigorous argument and analysis. Keller's preference for the ...
by seneca2008
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:10 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294
Replies: 22
Views: 796

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

I find Wilson's "got too intimate" better than many other renditions. But why are you saying that she "deliciously fudges the issue", if you don't think there's any issue at all ("I don't find it plausible that anyone reading 288 could take it in a sexual way")? It seems to me that she has found th...
by seneca2008
Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:04 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294
Replies: 22
Views: 796

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Not to throw a wrench in the works, but Hainesworth says that μίσγεσθαι as an euphemism for having sex, is a later usage and speculates that it must have "sounded odd to the Classical Age". In "later usage" a euphemism? I disagree. The word (with or without ἐν φιλότητι) is very common in this sense...
by seneca2008
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:37 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Trip to Greece - advice?
Replies: 13
Views: 576

Re: Trip to Greece - advice?

There is so much to see the difficulty is how to prevent a holiday turning into a route march, fine if one is on one’s own or with like minded friends not so acceptable with family. Sounion was magical when I saw it in the evening but this is a long time ago and I don’t know how much more built up i...
by seneca2008
Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:32 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: exercise in Morwood, query
Replies: 16
Views: 698

Re: exercise in Morwood, query

I make many mistakes of this kind, because self-instruction is less vivid than face-to-face teaching. Morwood's explanation includes exactly this point, with an example, but I missed it. I make lots of mistakes and I have a classics degree. its just hard work learning Latin and Greek. Have you read...
by seneca2008
Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:06 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: exercise in Morwood, query
Replies: 16
Views: 698

Re: exercise in Morwood, query

I am not sure your translation is quite right because you have ignored the force of the second τὰς. Something like "pursue the pleasures which are of/ go along with/ accompany [a] good reputation". The way you have it seems to me to say that pleasures and a good reputation are separate objects of pu...
by seneca2008
Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:39 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 62
Views: 2384

Re: Vacation reading

But I meant something different: I challenge you to find one single instance in Homer where a character says or does something to another character just in order to provoke an emotional response without immediate external repercussions. It seems to me that Homer simply has no way to say "he didn't ...
by seneca2008
Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:45 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 62
Views: 2384

Re: Vacation reading

jeidsath wrote: the Iliad and Odyssey have had far more secondary literature written about them than they really deserve,
I nearly ignored this but I thought I can't let it pass. Perhaps its a joke?
by seneca2008
Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:57 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 62
Views: 2384

Re: Vacation reading

Menelaus wants to go home and Agamemnon wants to delay the departure to make a sacrifice to Athena to appease her (ἐξακέομαι heal completely - make amends). ἐρυκακέειν is aor inf of ἐρύκω curb, keep back.
by seneca2008
Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:39 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 62
Views: 2384

Re: Vacation reading

It's interesting how often in Homer whenever there is question of how people treat each other, the focus is on outward reactions rather than emotions. Here Laertes (not Odysseus!) avoided the anger of his wife by not sleeping with Eurycleia, while we would say that he didn't want to hurt her feelin...
by seneca2008
Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:02 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 62
Views: 2384

Re: Vacation reading

@Aetos Thanks for the link to the video. Very atmospheric, and Bach is always welcome. I once went to a modern Greek class but it was full of women who were learning Greek so that they could work out what their Cypriot mother-in-laws were saying. My classical pronunciation and their Cypriot accent d...
by seneca2008
Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:00 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 62
Views: 2384

Re: Vacation reading

Paul Derouda wrote:Here Laertes (not Odysseus!) avoided the anger of his wife by not sleeping with Eurycleia, while we would say that he didn't want to hurt her feelings.
Ouch! I tried to post too many things in a rush. There is a moral here. Apologies.
by seneca2008
Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:26 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 62
Views: 2384

Re: Vacation reading

jeidsath wrote:Maybe I'm being prurient, but what does 433 χολον δ αλεεινε γυναικος mean? I don't recognize αλεεινε.
Odysseus avoided the anger of his wife by not sleeping with Eurycleia (εὐνῇ δ᾿ οὔ ποτ᾿ ἔμικτο).
by seneca2008
Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:13 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 62
Views: 2384

Re: Vacation reading

The only issue has been that my daughter asked me where Ithaca was, and when I told her Greece, and that we could fly there in about 16 hours, she informed me that she would like us to "go there tomorrow." It's great that you use Homer as a bedtime story for your daughter. You might read her this a...
by seneca2008
Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:07 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 62
Views: 2384

Re: Vacation reading

No, the point is that the correct procedure for the suitors would be to go to Icarius and have him arrange the marriage. I thought the point being made here is that if the suitors are serious about marriage they should offer Icarius bride-gifts rather than consume Telemachus' patrimony. Having now ...
by seneca2008
Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:24 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 62
Views: 2384

Re: Vacation reading

It gives prominence to the small things in life and many of the central characters are women or humble people like slaves, Interesting juxtaposition! :D ps I disagree with what you say about the "Big Questions of Life". The Odyssey is very focussed on Heroism, Honour and Death - the Dead even make ...
by seneca2008
Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:56 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 62
Views: 2384

Re: Vacation reading

Good. At its best this board makes it possible for a bunch of scattered people to be digitally in the same room together, and imagine if we were all resorting to the LSJ or Google in a conversation This is pretty much what can happen in a seminar. I really see no problem with using digital resource...
by seneca2008
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:45 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 62
Views: 2384

Re: Vacation reading

If I run into lines that I don't understand after a few passes, I will ask about them in this thread, rather than looking them up or searching through notes. I would appreciate it if people would reply in the same spirit. If you know the answer off the top of your head, then put in a note, otherwis...
by seneca2008
Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:54 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 239-261
Replies: 5
Views: 647

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 239-261

Popping in here to say that I'm away on holiday this week but please talk amongst yourselves. Any takers on Nausicaa's moral judgement (or not) in μοι ἀεικέλιος δέατ ̓ εἶναι? Your question does raise the connection between the moral worth of individuals and their physical appearance in judgements m...
by seneca2008
Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:13 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 3092

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

Well, when Jones writes "The conclusion must be that it was not modesty on Nausicaa's part that prevented her bathing Odysseus", the way I understand this is specifically that he is referring to why Nausicaa didn't personally wash Odysseus but gave the task to the slave girls. For those who have no...
by seneca2008
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:56 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 3092

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

I read Jones' article, which has some interesting insights, and his idea that Odysseus is refusing the bath to save Nausicaa's face is attractive. But in the same time I think Jones is not giving proper consideration to the context where the washing takes place. He says: "The conclusion must be tha...
by seneca2008
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:10 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 3092

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

Regardless, the reason that Odysseus vocalizes for being embarrassed to strip is that he has not cleaned or oiled himself for some time. We have to add something unstated if we think he's worried about his nudity. Well you are in good company as this is the view taken by Stanford and Hainsworth. Jo...
by seneca2008
Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:55 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 3092

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

In support of this, are ἀπολούσομαι and χρίσομαι really future? If they are aorist subjunctive, then Odysseus is saying "stay back until..." not "stay back in order that..."? I thought that they are subjunctive with ὄφρα in a purpose clause. LSJ says the following about temporal ὄφρα: “until: 1 wit...
by seneca2008
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:42 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 3092

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

Thank you Sean for your impressive and eclectic references. It has increased the range of my reading! Although in English a clear distinction can be drawn between "embarrassment" and "being ashamed" its not easy and people will want to draw the line between meanings in different places, according to...
by seneca2008
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:56 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: pay tribute / οισομεν ???
Replies: 5
Views: 484

Re: pay tribute / οισομεν ???

Joel is right. Edit: on p. 140 you will see the following, so you don't need to look anything up in a dictionary, although it is always interesting to do so: iii). ... φόρον φέρουσιν. They pay tribute. The principle parts of φέρω are given on page 52 unit 5. φέρω, οἴσω, ἤνεγκον or ἤνεγκα (stem ἐνεγκ...
by seneca2008
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:07 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Ablative of place without preposition?
Replies: 16
Views: 1271

Re: Ablative of place without preposition?

And the reason why I want to know the many uses of the ablative is because I’m learning to write Latin as well, not just read it. Which I believe are (the uses of the ablative) indispensable to know if one wants to master the art of writing in Latin because apparently you don’t have to use a prepos...
by seneca2008
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:36 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 3092

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

If you were really pushing the reading, you could even say that Odysseus' reaction isn't just to save Nausicaa's blushes but to save face for δῖος Ὀδυσσεύς himself after being refused a bath by slaves. Thank you for your summary and for you additional ideas which I think show the richness of this e...
by seneca2008
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:21 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: The Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek
Replies: 29
Views: 6294

Re: The Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek

I don't think the writer deserves to be defended, but apparently, if I understand correctly, he is trying to make the following point: In all other moods except the active, the distinction between different tenses is only aspectual, but in the indicative, the distinction is temporal as well as aspe...
by seneca2008
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:25 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Ablative of place without preposition?
Replies: 16
Views: 1271

Re: Ablative of place without preposition?

So, of the four possibilites, 1. she was mocked by death (means) 2. she was mocked with respect to death (specification) 3. she was mocked because of death (cause) 4. she was mocked by death (agent) #1 and #4 would seem to be the best choices. #4 requires a preposition, however, so we are left with...
by seneca2008
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:33 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 3092

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

@mwh Forgive my ignorance αἰσχύνη is a word I am familiar with in Tragedy I didn't realise it occurred in Homer. I will investigate further. We will just have to agree to differ on slaves. But many scholars do regard amphipoloi as slaves. Jones says at the conclusion of his article that the "real pr...
by seneca2008
Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:13 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 3092

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

I haven't read the article, but I don't think the reflexive reading of the middle here is right. I think they're inviting him to bathe (possibly/probably with them helping), not to wash himself . Jones accepts that "λοῦσθαι at 216 cannot be forced of itself to bear the meaning "wash himself". But λ...