Search found 1483 matches

by Hylander
Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:30 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Some questions for Demosthenes, Against Aristogiton 1.
Replies: 7
Views: 85

Re: Some questions for Demosthenes, Against Aristogiton 1.

I haven't looked up the sentence yet, but δεικνυμι typically takes an accusative + participle when it introduces indirect discourse, and that appears to be what ὄντα τὰ τῶν νόμων δίκαια is doing here.
by Hylander
Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:05 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plato Rep. 361e middle for passive futures
Replies: 3
Views: 44

Re: Plato Rep. 361e middle for passive futures

Regarding future middle vs passive, see Smyth 807. γνώσεται is future middle with active meaning. γνώσεται ὅτι οὐκ εἶναι δίκαιον ἀλλὰ δοκεῖν δεῖ ἐθέλειν. "He will learn that one [not 'he'] must wish not to be just but rather to seem just". δεῖ is impersonal. It would take a dative of the person if i...
by Hylander
Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:18 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Questions on the "Greek Anthology"(espec. Loeb and "others?")
Replies: 5
Views: 100

Re: Questions on the "Greek Anthology"(espec. Loeb and "others?")

You can rest assured that the new Loeb Greek Anthology is not, and subsequent volumes will not be, bowdlerized. That was one reason for the new series. Even by the 1960s, Fordyce's Catullus was greeted with scorn (even though it was apparently not his idea to omit poems deemed unsuitable for young r...
by Hylander
Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:02 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Philoctetes, questions.
Replies: 9
Views: 269

Re: Philoctetes, questions.

Neoptolemus is reminding the audience of the back-story of Philoctetes' wound. P. unwittingly stumbled into the sacred place of the nymph Chryse on the island of Chryse, and it was she who caused a serpent to bite him. Or something like that. And there was a prophecy that Troy could not be taken unt...
by Hylander
Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:46 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: How is the declension of ἠχώ categorised?
Replies: 2
Views: 38

Re: How is the declension of ἠχώ categorised?

3rd (consonant) declension. Stem originally in -οι. See Smyth 279: 279. Stems in οι, with nominative in -ώ, turn ι into unwritten ι-glide (y) before the endings beginning with a vowel. ἡ πειθώ persuasion is thus declined: N. πειθώ. G. πειθοῦς (πειθό-ος). D. πειθοῖ (πειθό-ι). A. πειθώ (πειθό-α). V. π...
by Hylander
Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:02 am
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Questions on the "Greek Anthology"(espec. Loeb and "others?")
Replies: 5
Views: 100

Re: Questions on the "Greek Anthology"(espec. Loeb and "others?")

The old 1917 five-volume Loeb edition is about as complete as it can be. The English translations are somewhat fustian and the good stuff is translated into Latin or Italian in order to spare youthful innocence. The commentary is minimal. A new Loeb edition consisting of an extensive revision of the...
by Hylander
Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:31 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Philoctetes, questions.
Replies: 9
Views: 269

Re: Philoctetes, questions.

shouldn't τί be heavy, since it is followed by two consonants? Mute (π, τ, κ, φ, θ, χ) + liquid (λ, ρ, sometimes μ, ν) clusters are sometimes but not always treated as making the preceding syllable heavy/long even if it contains a short vowel.. Really the underlying issue is whether the syllable in...
by Hylander
Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:51 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Iliad B353
Replies: 4
Views: 92

Re: Iliad B353

Thanks. Your citations clearly show that 353 is built around the formulaic σήματα φαίνων, which is associated with both ἐπι-/εν-δέξια and ἐναίσιμα. And again, with Zeus as logical (if not strictly syntactic) agent in 353, and the antecedent three lines earlier, the nominative is natural and the anac...
by Hylander
Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:12 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: 'nullus' in Greek
Replies: 3
Views: 111

Re: 'nullus' in Greek

Does this mean there just isn't a nullus equivalent in Greek? Nothing that is exactly equivalent in all situations. οπλων ουχ ευρεθησεται ουδ’ ἕν is more emphatic than nulla arma . Also, is it really fine to use εἰ μή without a verb? Yes, but a verb is more or less "understood" -- the main verb of ...
by Hylander
Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:58 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Hello from Corpus Christi (TX)
Replies: 4
Views: 157

Re: Hello from Corpus Christi (TX)

Hello, Terry! As a retired professor of theater, have you thought of learning Greek instead of or in addition to Latin, to gain access to what is one of the pinnacles of Greek and indeed world literature, namely, Greek drama? I would say that Greek is more difficult than Latin in the learning phase,...
by Hylander
Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:50 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Iliad B353
Replies: 4
Views: 92

Re: Iliad B353

Call it a lapse, call it an anacoluthon, call it a metrical fudge, it's all the same. The two intervening lines make the audience/reader and possibly the poet too forget that syntactically the two participles should be unmetrical accusatives. It would not be the only departure from strict syntax in ...
by Hylander
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:49 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Another Mistake by a German Professor?
Replies: 5
Views: 151

Re: Another Mistake by a German Professor?

I will venture this with considerable trepidation and uncertainty: Isn't it an unreal condition in the past time? "The same thing would perhaps have happened . . . " You probably want the aorist συνεβη. See Smyth 2305, 2306. Or is it "the same thing would be happening"? But it's hard for me to read ...
by Hylander
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:07 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὁσάκις ἂν
Replies: 30
Views: 412

Re: ὁσάκις ἂν

Yes, Bedwere's emendation is palmary.
by Hylander
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:15 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: A sentence from Athenaze
Replies: 12
Views: 555

Re: A sentence from Athenaze

I see what you mean. ωστε is a fossilized form: the relative adverb ως + τε épique, isn't it?

By the way, mwh, did you see my post in this thread?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68752

I'm still debating with myself whether it's right.
by Hylander
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:11 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: A sentence from Athenaze
Replies: 12
Views: 555

Re: A sentence from Athenaze

I don't think the subject of a clause of natural result has to be indefinite. E.g., I've seen such clauses refer to specific persons. The subject doesn't have to be indefinite but in this case, τὸν ἀκούοντα is indefinite in the sense that there is no specific hearer in mind. I should have made it c...
by Hylander
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:54 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὁσάκις ἂν
Replies: 30
Views: 412

Re: ὁσάκις ἂν

Joel, I added my post after mwh's summation because I thought it would be a good idea to alert readers of this thread to the possibility that 18th century textbooks may not be entirely reliable as to the fine points of Greek grammar. I think that's what mwh was alluding to when he wrote that "it may...
by Hylander
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:01 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὁσάκις ἂν
Replies: 30
Views: 412

Re: ὁσάκις ἂν

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that Greek syntax (as well as other aspects of Greek grammar and lexicography and Latin grammar, too) was placed on a much sounder footing over the course of the 19th century by many specialized studies that took a minutely detailed, and laborious, look ...
by Hylander
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:21 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὁσάκις ἂν
Replies: 30
Views: 412

Re: ὁσάκις ἂν

It's not ὁσάκις/τοσάκις. It's not a numerical comparison. ὁσάκις here is simply equivalent to οποτε. A numerical comparison -- a focus on the actual number of times rather than just the repetitive action -- would require the correlative τοσάκις.
by Hylander
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:56 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὁσάκις ἂν
Replies: 30
Views: 412

Re: ὁσάκις ἂν

Would the optative without ἄν, a sort of protasis, be acceptable? With a main verb in the past tense it would be not just acceptable but wholly correct, but not with the main verb in the present tense. See Smyth above. An indefinite/general relative clause is essentially equivalent to the protasis ...
by Hylander
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:47 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὁσάκις ἂν
Replies: 30
Views: 412

Re: ὁσάκις ἂν

Optative is not correct here. See Smyth 2567: 2567. Present general conditional relative clauses have ἄν with the subjunctive. The main clause has the present indicative or an equivalent. νέος δ᾽ ἀπόλλυθ᾽ ὅντιν᾽ (= εἴ τινα) ἂν φιλῇ θεός ‘he dieth young, whome'er a god doth love’ Stob. Flor. 120.13, ...
by Hylander
Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:26 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Latin for "patrol"
Replies: 2
Views: 110

Re: Latin for "patrol"

Perhaps circitores or circumitores. http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.2:2186.lewisandshort Here is a description of Roman practice from Vegetius 3,8, cited in the L&S entry above: ac de singulis centuriis quaterni equites et quaterni pedites excubitum noctibus faciunt. Et...
by Hylander
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:00 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὁσάκις ἂν
Replies: 30
Views: 412

Re: ὁσάκις ἂν

The apodosis of a “future less vivid” condition is essentially a “potential” optative. No difference. These are just pigeonholes that are sometimes useful in analyzing Greek syntax.
by Hylander
Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:19 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὁσάκις ἂν
Replies: 30
Views: 412

Re: ὁσάκις ἂν

I don't see it as potential optative, and I think present subjunctive is right--an indefinite clause in the present.
by Hylander
Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:33 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Philoctetes, questions.
Replies: 9
Views: 269

Re: Philoctetes, questions.

line 4: Νεοπτ- can't be resolved into two short syllable because the syllable -οπτ- is long/heavy. Accommodating proper names often requires metrical license. Synizesis is a license that's fairly frequent in such situations. Pronounce it by articulating -εο- quickly. 86-7: οὓς ἂν introduces a "gener...
by Hylander
Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:15 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: ἀθανασία
Replies: 27
Views: 525

Re: ἀθανασία

Can someone who died and is resurrected be described by this term if it means deathless, negation of death? Or would ἀφθαρσίαν describe such a being in terms of life immortal after already dying and having a resurrection? I doubt you'll ever find a clear answer to your questions about the meanings ...
by Hylander
Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:51 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Question of time or place
Replies: 7
Views: 182

Re: Question of time or place

One point that you may or may not be aware of is that παρουσια is a noun derived from the verb παρειμι, which itself is a compound composed of a verbal prefix παρα (also a preposition) plus the verb ειμι, "be". -ουσια is a nominal form derived from -ειμι, which you may or may not recognize but will ...
by Hylander
Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:09 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Question of time or place
Replies: 7
Views: 182

Re: Question of time or place

As you probably know, Greek words and expression don't necessarily map precisely onto English words and expressions; Greek words usually have a range of meanings; and the range of a particular Greek word's meaning is not necessarily identical to the range of meaning of the English word that is conve...
by Hylander
Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:10 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens
Replies: 69
Views: 2926

Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

you can’t realize how cringemaking these are. To get a sense of the cringeworthiness, try saying Thucydidus, Euripidus. Α propos of nothing: When our Greek driver/guide, who generally spoke very English well, referred to Thoo-kee-THEE-thees, I had to translate for the four other members of our part...
by Hylander
Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:07 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Visit to Greece, especially Aegina
Replies: 1
Views: 118

Visit to Greece, especially Aegina

I posted some of this (about the modern Greek pronunciation of Thucydides' name) in the Learning Greek/Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens thread. When our Greek driver/guide referred to Thoo-ki-'thee-thees, I had to translate for the four other members of our party. They thought the modern Greek pronunc...
by Hylander
Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:14 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Conditionals embedded in a result clause
Replies: 1
Views: 109

Re: Conditionals embedded in a result clause

Why not use αν with the infinitive? οι ανδρες ουτω ανδρειοι ωστε μη αοπλοι/γυμνοι οντες ικανοι αν ειναι την πολιν ελειν. Or . . . ωστε ει μη αοπλοι/γυμνοι ησαν . . . See Smyth 2270. The infinitive doesn't "represent" a potential optative, as in Smyth's examples, but in indirect discourse, αν + prese...
by Hylander
Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:24 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens
Replies: 69
Views: 2926

Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

StrepsiadES!
by Hylander
Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:06 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: What is the joke? (Aelianus De Natura Animalium)
Replies: 4
Views: 201

Re: What is the joke? (Aelianus De Natura Animalium)

"Joke" is probably not quite the right word. He's just being less than wholly serious. "He became an Acrisius to his daughter." The Greek Acrisius-Danae-Perseus myth bears a resemblance to the Seuchorus-Gilgamos story: an oracle tells a king (Seuchorus/Acrisius) that his daughter's son (Gilgamos/Per...
by Hylander
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:09 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens
Replies: 69
Views: 2926

Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Before I had read ως γεγηθ’ ορων τεκνον as “as I/one rejoices seeing a child”. You should ask yourself how that would make sense and how it would fit in this dialogue. These aren't one-off, atomistic sentences from an elementary textbook. I think that if you try to make sense of these passages set ...
by Hylander
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:41 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens
Replies: 69
Views: 2926

Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Joel, I'm not surprised that you found this line puzzling, because I did too. I even looked at a couple of translations before I realized what is going on.
by Hylander
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:12 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens
Replies: 69
Views: 2926

Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Yes, the correction is attributable to Musgrave (1778). The first accusative σ’ is the object of ὁρῶν..
by Hylander
Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:11 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens
Replies: 69
Views: 2926

Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

If that were possible, it would eliminate the dramatic ambiguity and turn the line into mere padding at a moment of high tension.. These one-line exchanges, stichomythy, occur at highly charged moments like this.

But LSJ doesn't cite any instance of γηθέω with a person as an accusative object.
by Hylander
Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:41 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens
Replies: 69
Views: 2926

Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Surgery has been done on the passage set for sight translation.
Is that second comma misplaced?
No, τέκνον is vocative. "I'm as happy as I am happy seeing you, my child." "I'm happy to the extent I'm happy seeing you,, my child." Deliberately obscure and evasive and ambiguous.
by Hylander
Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:18 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens
Replies: 69
Views: 2926

Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

γέγηθά σ’ ὡς γέγηθ’ ὁρῶν. It took me a while to see what was going on here. "I''m as happy to see you as I am happy." The ambiguity: "I'm so happy to see you." vs. "I'm really not happy at all to see you, because I'm going to have to slaughter you." Is it just me, or is there a larger than usual num...
by Hylander
Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:40 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens
Replies: 69
Views: 2926

Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

τὸ θέλειν has to be the object of ἔχων I suppose.
Yes. This is poetry, not prose. It pushes syntax to the limits; it's compressed and epigrammatic; and precisely because it's not "normal" (whatever that is), it's poignant and striking and effective.
by Hylander
Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:31 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens
Replies: 69
Views: 2926

Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

πολλῷ χρόνῳ -- "with much time." This means "after a long time" τόδ’ ἴσον ὑπὲρ ἀμφοῖν λέγεις.-- not sure from your translation whether you see how this fits together: "You say this equal(ly) on behalf of both (of us). ὅπως φῶ τοῦτο καὶ μὴ φῶ - "I don't know how I am to say yes to/agree with this and...