Search found 1724 matches

by Hylander
Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:58 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Secular uses of εις.
Replies: 24
Views: 642

Re: Secular uses of εις.

So what does the Greek really mean? I'm at a loss.
by Hylander
Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:05 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 20, Part III. #11
Replies: 17
Views: 411

Re: Unit 20, Part III. #11

I've exhumed my copy of Mastronarde, which was interred in the clutter, so I'll try to help when I can. I didn't use Mastronarde: in fact, I probably started learning Greek before he did. Crosby and Schaefer was the text we used.
by Hylander
Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:07 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 20, Part III. #11
Replies: 17
Views: 411

Re: Unit 20, Part III. #11

Don't be too hard on Lukas. Mastronarde is a dense, highly concentrated and difficult textbook. It's designed for mature students in a classroom setting. I'm sure that using it without a teacher to whom questions can be directed, and who can intervene orally when students flounder, as all of us did ...
by Hylander
Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:55 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 20, Part III. #11
Replies: 17
Views: 411

Re: Unit 20, Part III. #11

1. ἀλλ᾽ ἄλλοι μενέουσι κάρη κομόωντες Ἀχαιοὶ εἰς ὅ κέ περ Τροίην διαπέρσομεν. εἰ δὲ καὶ αὐτοὶ φευγόντων σὺν νηυσὶ φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν: νῶϊ δ᾽ ἐγὼ Σθένελός τε μαχησόμεθ᾽ εἰς ὅ κε τέκμωρ Ἰλίου εὕρωμεν: σὺν γὰρ θεῷ εἰλήλουθμεν. This is Iliad 9.45 ff. αὐτοὶ does not mark a subject shift here -- it re...
by Hylander
Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:48 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 20, Part III. #11
Replies: 17
Views: 411

Re: Unit 20, Part III. #11

As I mentioned above, αυτος in the nominative is generally not used as a simple personal pronoun (i.e., he, she it, they). So if αὐτοὶ in this sentence referred to the Athenians, you would need a pronoun signalling that αὐτοὶ did not refer to the original subject of the sentence, namely, οἰ σύμμαχοι...
by Hylander
Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:34 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 20, Part III. #11
Replies: 17
Views: 411

Re: Unit 20, Part III. #11

In this sentence, you do have a definite article: οἰ σύμμαχοι. αὐτοὶ is not inside the article + noun phrase. That shows that its use here is as an intensifier.

Atrributive position: οἰ αὐτοὶ σύμμαχοι = the same allies

Predicate position: οἰ σύμμαχοι αὐτοὶ = the allies themselves
by Hylander
Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:22 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 20, Part III. #11
Replies: 17
Views: 411

Re: Unit 20, Part III. #11

Predicate position: outside the article + noun phrase.
by Hylander
Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:21 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 20, Part III. #11
Replies: 17
Views: 411

Re: Unit 20, Part III. #11

Lukas originally wondered whether αυτοι could refer to the Athenians, "and they themselves". That's not a natural reading of the Greek. To express that idea, Greek would use και ουτοι or και ουτοι αυτοι instead of just και αυτοι. But I think Lukas' puzzlement was understandable. The important points...
by Hylander
Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:08 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 20, Part III. #11
Replies: 17
Views: 411

Re: Unit 20, Part III. #11

Think about what και means here, Does it just mean "and"?

And think about what is happening. The allies marched into Athenian territory, where the plague was raging. You got that much, didn't you? What happened to the allies when they entered the plague-ridden territory?
by Hylander
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:02 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Imperfect v. Aorist
Replies: 7
Views: 261

Re: Imperfect v. Aorist

One way of thinking about it, using English equivalents (more or less):

ἔδοξε -- they decided

ἐδόκει -- it seemed like a good idea (at the time)

This is more or less consistent with what Paul wrote, I believe.
by Hylander
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:55 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 20, a Word from Clearchus
Replies: 7
Views: 246

Re: Unit 20, a Word from Clearchus

εκεινου -- "of that man", "of him", i.e. of Clearchus. "The soldiers of Clearchus" is equivalent to Clearchus' own soldiers in this context, where the idea is that not only his [own] soldiers but the rest of the Greek soldiers approved his speech. The τ᾽ . . . και particles, by linking the two group...
by Hylander
Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:20 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 20, a Word from Clearchus
Replies: 7
Views: 246

Re: Unit 20, a Word from Clearchus

The last sentence: οι δε στρατιωται οι τ ᾽εκεινου και οι αλλοι -- "The soldiers, both his own and the others," ταυτ᾽ επηνεσαν -- "praised/approved these things", less literally, "approved this". και επειτα ελιπον μεν τους Ελληνας την δε των βαρβαρβν φιλιαν ειλομην -- you need to capture the force of...
by Hylander
Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:24 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 20 Part IV #6
Replies: 3
Views: 132

Re: Unit 20 Part IV #6

Also note γυνή. The word order of the answer book, by separating the subject from the predicate, makes the structure of the sentence clearer. Your word order, while not wrong, juxtaposes two accusative noun phrases, making it difficult to tell which is subject and which is object, or perhaps suggest...
by Hylander
Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:05 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Future of πυνθάνομαι?
Replies: 9
Views: 359

Re: Future of πυνθάνομαι?

Zero grade -bd- apparently shows up in Russian bditel'nyj, "vigilant". Correction: bditel'nyj is probably from earlier bъditel'nyj, where ъ is an older short u that disappeared in modern Russian, leaving consonant clusters that look strange to English speakers (e.g., m(ъ)gnovenje, "moment"), but ar...
by Hylander
Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:52 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Future of πυνθάνομαι?
Replies: 9
Views: 359

Re: Future of πυνθάνομαι?

But there's no etymological relation between бдительный and vigilo? That's surprising to me. Why? How do you get from b-d to w-g? uigil , uigeo and uegeo are ultimately connected to a different PIE verbal root weg- , from which English "wake" is apparently derived. See OLD and Sihler, p. 44, sec. 4...
by Hylander
Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:30 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Future of πυνθάνομαι?
Replies: 9
Views: 359

Re: Future of πυνθάνομαι?

Menoeceus: I think your derivations are generally correct, but as a total amateur in this area, I wonder whether the future stem πευσ- isn't derived from the alternative form πευθομαι/πευθω, and not a proto-Indo-European (PIE) development. The sigmatic future is a Greek development, and a fairly lat...
by Hylander
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:59 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Articular Infinitive
Replies: 3
Views: 195

Re: Articular Infinitive

μηδὲ should come before the verb. After the verb it seems strange and un-Greek, at least to me. τοὺς παῖδας would also be better before the verb, but putting it after the verb is not quite as jarring. You shouldn't be afraid of "splitting" articular infinitives in Greek, any more than you should be ...
by Hylander
Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:17 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Future of σπένδω?
Replies: 26
Views: 699

Re: Future of σπένδω?

your post was very helpful.

Well, now that mwh has prompted me to think it through more carefully, it looks like I was a bit misleading.
by Hylander
Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:06 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Future of σπένδω?
Replies: 26
Views: 699

Re: Future of σπένδω?

the *σπενδσω > *σπενσω > σπεισω morphological development was phonologically immediate, instantaneous, unmediated, spontaneous. You're probably right about this. There are many instances where *δσ > σ and *νσ > σ with compensatory lengthening of the preceding vowel. But *νδσ > σ with compensatory l...
by Hylander
Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:25 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Future of σπένδω?
Replies: 26
Views: 699

Re: Future of σπένδω?

when we see a sound change diagrammed as *σπενδσω > *σπενσω > σπεισω, do you take that to mean that at some point in time people actually said "σπενδσω" and then "σπενσω" and finally (in the historical period) "σπεισω"? I have no way of knowing this, and maybe no one else does either. But I suspect...
by Hylander
Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:29 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Future of σπένδω?
Replies: 26
Views: 699

Re: Future of σπένδω?

My quibble with “euphony” is that it suggests that adding σ to the root to form the future stem and then applying the rules to reduce the consonants and lengthen the vowel were a productive process operative in the minds and on the lips of Ancient Greek speakers in the classical period as they spoke...
by Hylander
Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:40 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Future of σπένδω?
Replies: 26
Views: 699

Re: Future of σπένδω?

My post was perhaps a bit too technical for someone learning Greek, and maybe confusing, and I should apologize for that. But I think students of ancient Greek should be encouraged to learn something of the historical processes that led to the bewildering proliferation of Greek verb forms, if only t...
by Hylander
Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:04 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Future of σπένδω?
Replies: 26
Views: 699

Re: Future of σπένδω?

At the risk of adding to the confusion, I think the term "euphony" is somewhat outdated and not the best word to describe the formation of the future stem of σπενδω -- It's best to think of it as the application in succession of two low-level phonological rules of Greek that reflect historical proce...
by Hylander
Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:06 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Future of σπένδω?
Replies: 26
Views: 699

Re: Future of σπένδω?

*σπενδσω > *σπενσω > σπεισω with compensatory lengthening of ε to ει.
by Hylander
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:26 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Third Declension
Replies: 5
Views: 340

Re: Third Declension

Sorry. I misread the original post. Lukas and mwh set me straight.
by Hylander
Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:35 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: What subjunctive is this? (from Livy)
Replies: 9
Views: 1412

Re: What subjunctive is this? (from Livy)

Experirer is potential subjunctive in Allen & Greenough's terminology (sec. 445 ff.), subjonctif de possibilité in Ernout & Thomas (sec. 254, p. 236)

It has already been established that ne is an emphatic affirmative particle, not a negative. Something like English 'indeed".
by Hylander
Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:29 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Third Declension
Replies: 5
Views: 340

Re: Third Declension

Don't worry about vocatives too much. When would anyone use the vocative for "water"? Neuter vocatives are usually the same as nominatives, but most neuter nouns (except diminutives) are inanimate and don't often find themselves in the vocative case. Otherwise, you'll recognize vocatives when you se...
by Hylander
Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:18 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Looking for Principle Parts Catalogs
Replies: 8
Views: 368

Re: Looking for Principle Parts Catalogs

For anyone intent on memorizing principal parts, I think, Smyth provides too much information about alternative and dialect forms, and doesn't provide the basic information in a convenient format. Otherwise, Smyth is very useful if not indispensable for Greek verb forms. And, as mwh notes, it's usef...
by Hylander
Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:20 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Looking for Principle Parts Catalogs
Replies: 8
Views: 368

Re: Looking for Principle Parts Catalogs

You will never find a table of every last verb, but Morwood’s Oxford Grammar of Classical Greek has extensive lists of just about aa those you really need to know, along with allthe essential grammar, in a very reasonably priced package.
by Hylander
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:27 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: What's the function of this subjunctive?
Replies: 14
Views: 1637

Re: What's the function of this subjunctive?

Officium est ejus qui praeest, iis, quibus praesit, prodesse. Where is this from? Is it really out of a genuine Latin text, or is it just made-up Latin? It's not the subjunctive praesit that calls for an explanation: it's the indicative praeest. praesit is subjunctive because the relative clause, i...
by Hylander
Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:20 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Clarification on the use of ind./subj. in Seneca's "De brevitate vitae", IV
Replies: 3
Views: 707

Re: Clarification on the use of ind./subj. in Seneca's "De brevitate vitae", IV

Potentissimis et in altum sublatis hominibus excidere voces videbis, quibus otium optent, laudent, omnibus bonis suis praeferant. Here quibus is an instrumental ablative, the antecedent of which is voces , not hominibus . hominibus is an "ethical" dative or dative of "disadvantage": the words slip ...
by Hylander
Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:30 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: To be or not to be?
Replies: 4
Views: 348

Re: To be or not to be?

There are no guidelines. I suspect it’s omitted more often than not unless there’s a specific reason to emphasize it. I think you’ll get to be more comfortable with its omission the more you read. It’s a weak and in most contexts unimportant verb in the present indicative. But when you’re doing exer...
by Hylander
Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:22 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: exercise in Morwood, query
Replies: 16
Views: 863

Re: exercise in Morwood, query

τὰς ἡδονας θὴρευε τὰς μετὰ δὸξης.

I hope it didn't escape attention that this is a line of verse: the meter is dogmatic trimeter.
by Hylander
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:27 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 71
Views: 3370

Re: Vacation reading

Joel, you need to look up words in the dictionary: μεταδόρπιος,, ἠριγένεια, νεμεσσῶμαί, πότμον, ἐπίσπηι (hint: εφεπω), γέρας, ὀϊζυροῖσι. I don't think you can expect to pick up Homer and read with comprehension without doing some heavy lifting at first to solidify your command of the grammatical for...
by Hylander
Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:08 pm
Forum: Latin Poetry
Topic: Horace Odes I.24
Replies: 8
Views: 828

Re: Horace Odes I.24

Just to put in my two cents/tuppence worth. I love Horace's metrical mastery and his concision -- his ability to pack in a lot of meaning into just a few words and, in the Odes, short verses, using the resources of Latin poetry: the choice and artful collocation of words. Some of his short poems are...
by Hylander
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 71
Views: 3370

Re: Vacation reading

ἀπεῖπον - "forbid", "deny", "renounce"

LSJ glosses this line: "give them full notice". Honestly, I'm not going to post an answer on the internet without checking to make sure I'm not utterly wrong.

Homeric 2d aorist infinitive in -έμεν.
by Hylander
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:50 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Attested Latin words with three vowels in a row?
Replies: 13
Views: 965

Re: Attested Latin words with three vowels in a row?

You're not alone in feeling out of one's league when addressing textual problems, but at least (unlike me) you're adept at composing Latin verse, which undoubtedly helps. Check out the OLD for minitor . Paragraph 2 gives as a meaning "To hold out as a threat, threaten (an ill)," with a number of exa...
by Hylander
Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:07 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Attested Latin words with three vowels in a row?
Replies: 13
Views: 965

Re: Attested Latin words with three vowels in a row?

A conjecture of Scaliger's is what got me thinking about this topic to begin with: cieat for amiciat in a line of very mangled classical poetry. In its restored context I find cieat very attractive, but its complete absence from the record of Latin literature is crushing my hopes. I don't think the...
by Hylander
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:12 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Attested Latin words with three vowels in a row?
Replies: 13
Views: 965

Re: Attested Latin words with three vowels in a row?

Would praeeunte be treated as trisyllabic with correption of ae, or as disyllabic with synizesis of praee?
by Hylander
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:05 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Republic 2.377a
Replies: 8
Views: 796

Re: Republic 2.377a

τοῦτο because ψεῦδος -- disdainfully lumping together the μυθοι told to children: "all that stuff is generally, just about all of it, a bunch of lies". That why τοῦτο and ψεῦδος are singular, and why τοῦτο is neuter singular and not masculine plural in agreement with μῦθοι. τὸ ὅλον is better explain...