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by jeidsath
Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:34 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Cambridge Grammar for Homeric -σαν to -ν
Replies: 1
Views: 81

Cambridge Grammar for Homeric -σαν to -ν

I looked up διέτμαγεν in Smyth this morning. It turns out to be 3rd pl. aor. pass., for διετμάγησαν, behaving like μι-verbs in Homer. See Smyth 464 e. D. As an experiment, I looked for the same information in the Cambridge Grammar. The chapter on Ionic and dialect forms includes 25.39 on -νται and -...
by jeidsath
Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:01 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Videos or audio which teach proper pronunciation and pitch?
Replies: 8
Views: 2300

Re: Videos or audio which teach proper pronunciation and pitch?

In fact, Tomin is the only person I've ever heard who is both consistent on the stress accent and vowel length. Usually stress accent people murder short stressed vowels -- you can't tell their ό from their ω from their ῶ -- but Tomin does not. Maybe because he is Czech? He is not quite as good as L...
by jeidsath
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:11 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plato dictionary
Replies: 4
Views: 314

Re: Plato dictionary

Here's a thread with a link to the history of the failed Oxford Plato Lexicon: https://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/viewtopic.php?t=68643 The last part of Whitaker's article (linked there) discusses some of what came out in the 20th century. Various concordances, but nothing like what was plann...
by jeidsath
Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:30 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 1684

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

If gore was no barrier to embraces in book 22, grime should be no barrier to slaves bathing a man under their mistress' instructions in Book 6." I think we should bring up γίγνωσκε δ’ ἄρα φρεσὶ πάσας and the context before deciding the two dramatic conceptions couldn't fit one poet. And, again, it ...
by jeidsath
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:28 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 1684

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

I never realized it was always an uncertain future time, but that makes sense, now that I think of places that I've seen it. Regardless, the reason that Odysseus vocalizes for being embarrassed to strip is that he has not cleaned or oiled himself for some time. We have to add something unstated if w...
by jeidsath
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:52 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 1684

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

I still think that the αιδως here is about dirt and grime rather than nudity. (Paul, what is Finnish etiquette about a sauna right after a workout or backpacking trip? I assume people are supposed to wash themselves off first? And if they are dirty enough, might even be a bit embarrassed about washi...
by jeidsath
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:19 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: pay tribute / οισομεν ???
Replies: 5
Views: 268

Re: pay tribute / οισομεν ???

φέρω is a bit of a wild verb. Its future is οἴσω, and it has aorists ἤνεγκα/ἤνεγκον. You'll find that the LSJ has a full discussion of its forms.
by jeidsath
Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:03 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 1684

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

Paul is correct about the two words. (I really think that Scandinavians only pretend that English is not their native language. Does a language like Finnish really exist, and can anyone really understand it? I have doubts.) A person would be ashamed of his family's slave-holding past, unless he thou...
by jeidsath
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:13 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 1684

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

The one is a feeling that makes your face red and lasts for a few minutes. (Ἀστεῖόν γε, ἦ δ᾿ ὅς, ὅτι ἐρυθριᾷς, ὦ Ἱππόθαλες, καὶ ὀκνεῖς εἰπεῖν Σωκράτει τοὔνομα) The other is a social injury which can last for a lifetime. (αἰδὼς ὦ Λύκιοι: πόσε φεύγετε). They can be caused by the same thing, but often ...
by jeidsath
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:50 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Republic 2.377a
Replies: 8
Views: 373

Re: Republic 2.377a

I recommend Goodwin's Moods and Tenses 777 instead of the LSJ ειπον article, as the LSJ doesn't do more than give the gloss for the very common ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν. No, I don't disagree that τὸ ὅλον can be taken adverbially, but it felt a little flat to do so here, and leaves the somewhat surprising "τοῦ...
by jeidsath
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:15 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Republic 2.377a
Replies: 8
Views: 373

Re: Republic 2.377a

ὡς τὸ ὅλον εἰπεῖν is an idiom, or rather two idioms: ὡς . . . εἰπεῖν -- not quite English "so to speak" but it softens a categorical statement; maybe "more or less". που also softens the expression. τὸ ὅλον -- "generally", i.e. taking it as a whole (adverbial accusative). Generally, that (τοῦτο) [i...
by jeidsath
Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:33 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Republic 2.377a
Replies: 8
Views: 373

Re: Republic 2.377a

Understanding what the passage is saying should make pretty clear whether τοῦτο is adverbial or has an antecedent, and what τὸ ὅλον is doing, or whether it is indirect discourse or not. It is hard to claim more than a general gist if we can't answer these questions. But it does seem straightforward ...
by jeidsath
Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:19 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 1684

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

ἦ γὰρ δηρὸν ἀπὸ χροός ἐστιν ἀλοιφή

It seemed to me that he was more ashamed by the built-up grime revealed by his nakedness than the nudity.

αἰδέομαι γὰρ γυμνοῦσθαι κούρῃσιν ἐυπλοκάμοισι μετελθών

It would be rather difficult to imagine Rhett Butler delivering this line to Scarlett's house-slaves.
by jeidsath
Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:53 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: trouble finding digital images of two codices in Greek (philos. gr. 202, Wien; I R 14 Escorial)
Replies: 2
Views: 172

Re: trouble finding digital images of two codices in Greek (philos. gr. 202, Wien; I R 14 Escorial)

The first is "Prolegomena in Aelium Aristidem". I don't know if there is an online version. Here is the catalogue record: http://data.onb.ac.at/rec/AC14451964 Does your reference for #2 have anything to do with this "Catalogue des manuscrits grecs de la bibliothèque de l'Escurial"? https://archive.o...
by jeidsath
Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:38 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: PRAYER FOR LIGHT IN ILIAD
Replies: 2
Views: 175

Re: PRAYER FOR LIGHT IN ILIAD

The quote is not from the Iliad, but from Ajax' suicide speech in Sophocles. Lines 856 - 858. σὲ δ᾽, ὦ φαεννῆς ἡμέρας τὸ νῦν σέλας, καὶ τὸν διφρευτὴν Ἥλιον προσεννέπω, πανύστατον δὴ κοὔποτ᾽ αὖθις ὕστερον. You may have better luck posting to our Open Board or Learning Greek. The Academy is usually wh...
by jeidsath
Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:23 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Through the Bosphorus in a reed boat
Replies: 3
Views: 536

Through the Bosphorus in a reed boat

All to prove Herodotus right. https://i.imgur.com/RfKty1c.png https://phys.org/news/2019-07-ancient-egypt-to-black-sea-route-adventurers.html Were the ancient Egyptians able to use reed boats to travel as far as the Black Sea thousands of years ago? A group of adventurers believe so, and will try to...
by jeidsath
Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:37 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: τίς οὖν ἡ παιδεία;
Replies: 5
Views: 512

Re: τίς οὖν ἡ παιδεία;

Contra the Loeb and Philo, I don't really think the articles are captured quite correctly. παιδεια has the article because it's "the education" they are inventing for their guardians. And I think πολλου χρονου is a definite period? Not any education invented after a long search. "this long time". Tr...
by jeidsath
Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:35 am
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Visit to Greece, especially Aegina
Replies: 11
Views: 1889

Re: Visit to Greece, especially Aegina

No. I meant that the German team simply shined ultraviolet lights on the statues to do the reconstruction, and there was no chemical reconstruction of the pigments. William Gladstone was not aware of the cell mechanics of color vision because he lived in the late 19th century. We can be fairly sure,...
by jeidsath
Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:02 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Long vowels ᾱῑῡ
Replies: 9
Views: 700

Re: Long vowels ᾱῑῡ

Sorry about that. I finally did it on a computer and fixed my code: grep -F -A2 '******' lsj.txt | cut -d ',' -f1 | grep $'\xcf\x85\xcc\x84' grep -F -A2 '******' lsj.txt | cut -d ',' -f1 | grep $'\xce\xb1\xcc\x84' grep -F -A2 '******' lsj.txt | cut -d ',' -f1 | grep $'\xce\xb9\xcc\x84' It would prob...
by jeidsath
Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:33 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Long vowels ᾱῑῡ
Replies: 9
Views: 700

Re: Long vowels ᾱῑῡ

Oh, change that to '-f1'. Newer versions of coreutils correctly flag '-f0' as an error, which bites old engineers like me used to it getting silently accepted.
by jeidsath
Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:06 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Long vowels ᾱῑῡ
Replies: 9
Views: 700

Re: Long vowels ᾱῑῡ

And it finds the long vowels anywhere. If you would only like to find it only on the headword line, notice that this is the format: ************************************************************ <headword>, <body> <body cont.> So you can use grep -A2 '*************************************************...
by jeidsath
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:33 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Long vowels ᾱῑῡ
Replies: 9
Views: 700

Re: Long vowels ᾱῑῡ

Download the .txt file from here and do a file search: https://archive.org/details/Lsj--LiddellScott There are different unicode combining character encoding schemes, and to get vim search for ᾱ to work for me, I found that instead of searching for the version that my keyboard makes, I needed to cop...
by jeidsath
Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:18 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Roman stylus (c. AD 70) from London
Replies: 2
Views: 228

Re: Roman stylus (c. AD 70) from London

Maybe it's meant to be a simple joke. I think that's an easy conclusion to jump to in our hyper-literate society, with printed text on everything. Aculeatum is an interesting word choice though. I wonder if it's meant to be a reminder about a debt.
by jeidsath
Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:06 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Roman stylus (c. AD 70) from London
Replies: 2
Views: 228

Roman stylus (c. AD 70) from London

Image

Code: Select all

ab urbe v[e]n[i] munus tibi gratum adf(e)ro
acul[eat]um ut habe[a]s memor[ia]m nostra(m)
rogo si fortuna dar[e]t quo possem
largius ut longa via ceu sacculus est (v)acuus
by jeidsath
Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:21 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Movable ν
Replies: 4
Views: 306

Re: Movable ν

According to Allen, the more "official" and less "popular" an inscription, the more it tends to indicate hiatus. Hiatus and the addition of moveable nu could both point to deliberate speech. But I've never really noticed much rhyme or reason to the exceptions to the normal rules while reading OCT te...
by jeidsath
Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:34 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Movable ν
Replies: 4
Views: 306

Re: Movable ν

But you aren’t an ancient greek, and modern habits are unlikely to help us in figuring out ancient meters, where moveable nu often matters.
by jeidsath
Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:38 am
Forum: Composition Board
Topic: greek elegiac couplets
Replies: 6
Views: 646

Re: greek elegiac couplets

It’s one thing to avoid errors, another to produce something that reads like Greek, and frankly, without the English I don’t think I’d have been able to understand much of this. I read the Greek a few times until I understood it, and felt that it might have been more straight-foward than the Hardy....
by jeidsath
Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:06 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Finished books I-IV of Anabasis
Replies: 3
Views: 302

Re: Finished books I-IV of Anabasis

In addition to re-reading, the last few chapters of the Anabasis are even more interesting than the first four.
by jeidsath
Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:23 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: No Such Thing as a Stupid Question
Replies: 29
Views: 1456

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: No Such Thing as a Stupid Question

But vowel lengthening is certainly wrong, for the reason mwh gives above. It’s only happening with certain following consonants.
by jeidsath
Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:30 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: No Such Thing as a Stupid Question
Replies: 29
Views: 1456

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: No Such Thing as a Stupid Question

Monro, dreadful? You may find that he is more enjoyable in hardcover or with a decent pdf. (The edited claim for the link is a lie.)

The question about how Odysseus would recognize Artemis might occur to a Jew, Muslim, or Protestant, but never to a Hindu, Catholic, or pagan Greek.
by jeidsath
Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:59 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: No Such Thing as a Stupid Question
Replies: 29
Views: 1456

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: No Such Thing as a Stupid Question

(As to τε μέγεθός, surely it’s better to say that the mu is doubled. An episilon can’t be long.) Sorry I'm pretty lax when I talk about syllables - in this case the "final vowel lengthening" was referring specifically to Monro's "this power of lengthening a preceding vowel", which I suppose is just...
by jeidsath
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:03 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Digamma in Plato (?) Euthyphro 12a - Burnett
Replies: 3
Views: 586

Re: Digamma in Plato (?) Euthyphro 12a - Burnett

it seems post-Homeric, given the article What if that's actually demonstrative? But Zeus having worked that, even he who made all things was not willing to contend against him. For since fear was there, shame also. Referring to Zeus' castration of his father, I imagine. Which would make the rest of...
by jeidsath
Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:04 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Exodus 3:14 LXX and John 1:18
Replies: 6
Views: 719

Re: Exodus 3:14 LXX and John 1:18

For a more detailed version of the argument, see Hort's Two Disserations . Here he is on the possibility of a transcriptional error. https://i.imgur.com/PiSnhFN.png https://i.imgur.com/9uthCwK.png https://i.imgur.com/XChst2Q.png Basically, the riddle has been, why would υιος have been changed to θεο...
by jeidsath
Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:11 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Exodus 3:14 LXX and John 1:18
Replies: 6
Views: 719

Re: Exodus 3:14 LXX and John 1:18

Philo and the Septuagint uses ὁ ὢν consistently to mean God. Paul too, though not quite the same way. But there is one exception, which the TLG tells me that I was miss-remembering. Not 2 John, but the Gospel of John itself (was I thinking "secundum"?): John 3:31: Ὁ ἄνωθεν ἐρχόμενος ἐπάνω πάντων ἐστ...
by jeidsath
Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:03 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Exodus 3:14 LXX and John 1:18
Replies: 6
Views: 719

Re: Exodus 3:14 LXX and John 1:18

Does the world really need another thread about this?

I think that you may be right about ὁ ὢν but its usage in 2 John should give you some pause about being certain about anything.
by jeidsath
Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:49 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Wilson's Odyssey - again
Replies: 16
Views: 900

Re: Wilson's Odyssey - again

he mentions that she has worked hard to avoid importing "contemporary sexism" into the poem. This is a good thing, of course, and she does not say that she is able to do this because she is a woman, whatever the NYT may say. The example she gives however, leaves something to be desired : Many conte...
by jeidsath
Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:26 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Wilson's Odyssey - again
Replies: 16
Views: 900

Re: Wilson's Odyssey - again

Better to make several points in few words than no point in many. This thread was a topic split, because Seneca deserved a reply, but it wasn't right to muddy the other thread. One of the things that makes Textkit work is a dedication to the Greek and Latin languages. Translations are a subject of c...
by jeidsath
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:10 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Wilson's Odyssey - again
Replies: 16
Views: 900

Re: Wilson's Odyssey - again

I'm afraid I'm can't really engage with you on the literary merits of various English translations. I don't think that they tend to have much literary merit in general. Pope's Rape of the Lock is better than any of his Homer. And thank god that A. E. Housman wrote A Shropshire Lad instead of trying ...