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by jeidsath
Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:45 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Seven Against Thebes 628
Replies: 3
Views: 67

Seven Against Thebes 628

κλύοντες θεοὶ δικαίας λιτὰς
ἁμετέρας τελεῖθ᾽, ὡς πόλις εὐτυχῇ,
δορίπονα κάκ᾽ ἐκτρέποντες ἐς γᾶς
ἐπιμόλους· πύργων δ᾽ ἔκτοθεν
βαλὼν Ζεύς σφε κάνοι κεραυνῷ.

Is ἐς γᾶς ἐπιμόλους a poetic inversion? Should it be understood as “onto the invaders of our land” or “into the land of the invaders”?
by jeidsath
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:32 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Long and superlong syllables (ει vs ῃ), and word order question
Replies: 9
Views: 183

Re: Long and superlong syllables (ει vs ῃ), and word order question

Perhaps of interest to you though is Martin West's calculation that a long syllable/position is 5/6 the length of two short syllables. I find it unlikely that vowel length was ever so regular. Modern languages are not. There's a base length from the mechanics of your mouth and larynx, but there is ...
by jeidsath
Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:27 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Long and superlong syllables (ει vs ῃ), and word order question
Replies: 9
Views: 183

Re: Long and superlong syllables (ει vs ῃ), and word order question

But ῃ must be even longer than ει, or else there wouldn't be a difference. Metrically there is no difference, and it's hard to know more. Some languages (e.g., Hawaiian) have extra long vowels/diphthongs distinguished only by length, but Allen suggests a quality difference as more likely for Greek....
by jeidsath
Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:27 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: EPISTLE OF BARNABAS (1st-mid-2nd c.) on Christ "in the flesh in/and a figure" (SOLVED)
Replies: 3
Views: 206

Re: EPISTLE OF BARNABAS (1st-mid-2nd c.) on Christ "in the flesh in/and a figure" (SOLVED)

"a figure but in flesh"

No. τύπῳ is dative, not nominative. You're going to have to learn some Greek if you want to tackle these questions.
by jeidsath
Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:09 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Ανάγκη
Replies: 34
Views: 1097

Re: Ανάγκη

I also agree with ἑκηβόλος - I too read Smyth section a. which you quoted as an exception. I think that the Cambridge Grammar is clearer on δοκῶ/δοκεῖ personal/impersonal use and I refer you to 51.30. Smyth 1983 a. does not read like an exception at all, and in fact the Cambridge Grammar at 51.30 e...
by jeidsath
Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:25 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Sanskrit OCR in 1980
Replies: 2
Views: 146

Re: Sanskrit OCR in 1980

Fixed
by jeidsath
Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:37 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Sanskrit OCR in 1980
Replies: 2
Views: 146

Sanskrit OCR in 1980

Sanskrit and OCR A talk given by Dan Ingalls and his father at Xerox PARC in 1980. It describes a project to determine authorship of various sections of the great Indian epic, the Mahabharata. Dan Sr introduces the Sanskrit language and talks about the traits of oral and written authorship. Dan Jr ...
by jeidsath
Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:23 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Ανάγκη
Replies: 34
Views: 1097

Re: Ανάγκη

That seems persuasive to me, but I don't know if ὡς would separate a subject from its verb like that.
by jeidsath
Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:22 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Ανάγκη
Replies: 34
Views: 1097

Re: Ανάγκη

σκόπει δή, εἰπεῖν τὸν Σωκράτη, ἀντὶ τοῦ εἰκότος εἰ ἀνάγκη οὕτως, τὸ ἐπιθυμοῦν ἐπιθυμεῖν οὗ ἐνδεές ἐστιν, ἢ μὴ ἐπιθυμεῖν, ἐὰν μὴ ἐνδεὲς ᾖ; ἐμοὶ μὲν γὰρ θαυμαστῶς δοκεῖ, ὦ Ἀγάθων, ὡς ἀνάγκη εἶναι: σοὶ δὲ πῶς; κἀμοί, φάναι, δοκεῖ. As mentioned before, there is an idiom in this passage, See the adverb ...
by jeidsath
Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:51 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: JOSEPHUS' ANTIQUITIES (Books I-XVI) 4 Questions
Replies: 7
Views: 580

Re: JOSEPHUS' ANTIQUITIES (Books I-XVI) 4 Questions

Well, that was the point of the question, Barry. I would understand a neuter substantive for something like this:

ἀνὰ δύο δὲ καὶ ἥμισυ [σπιθαμῶν] κατὰ μέτωπον

But would he say " ἀνὰ δύο δὲ καὶ ἥμισυ λόγων"? Does it make as much sense to mark out laws like that?
by jeidsath
Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:20 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: JOSEPHUS' ANTIQUITIES (Books I-XVI) 4 Questions
Replies: 7
Views: 580

Re: JOSEPHUS' ANTIQUITIES (Books I-XVI) 4 Questions

Why is ἥμισυ neuter? Looking through all of Josephus' uses of μέτωπον, which he uses to mean geometric "face" or "front" a great number of times -- unlike the Septuagint or NT, which do not ever use it that way -- I can't convince myself that he means "columns." There's nothing comparable that I cou...
by jeidsath
Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:45 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: JOSEPHUS' ANTIQUITIES (Books XVI-XX) 4 Questions
Replies: 9
Views: 596

Re: JOSEPHUS' ANTIQUITIES (Books XVI-XX) 4 Questions

There are examples in ancient literature where castration was an attempt to reassign gender, for example Nero's castration of Sporus prior to a "marriage". Puerum Sporum exsectis testibus etiam in muliebrem naturam transfigurare conatus cum dote et flammeo per sollemnia nuptiarum celeberrimo offici...
by jeidsath
Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:36 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: LatinDiscussion forum down
Replies: 3
Views: 152

Re: LatinDiscussion forum down

It looks like it's back up. http://latindiscussion.com/forum/
by jeidsath
Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:55 am
Forum: Open Board
Topic: LatinDiscussion forum down
Replies: 3
Views: 152

Re: LatinDiscussion forum down

https://i.imgur.com/MvY0HHe.png Domain name: latindiscussion.com Registry Domain ID: 1557609093_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.namecheap.com Registrar URL: http://www.namecheap.com Updated Date: 2018-05-01T06:18:26.00Z Creation Date: 2009-05-31T06:09:34.00Z Registrar Registration Exp...
by jeidsath
Sun May 26, 2019 6:51 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right
Replies: 18
Views: 1532

Re: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right

There's a passage in Xenophon, I forget where just now, where the claim is made that the Greek mercenaries are self-evidently hardier than the Persians. Perhaps it was just chauvinism, which there is some amount of in the Anabasis. However, the area of Iran in modern times, like California, seems to...
by jeidsath
Thu May 23, 2019 3:58 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Most literal translations with facing texts?
Replies: 22
Views: 1051

Re: Most literal translations with facing texts?

And yet I do all right somehow. It’s truly a mystery. You’ll notice that the method that I recommended is no different than using a lexicon, except with less time wasted page flipping. If you are following it, you will only be getting English input on words you would have to look up anyway. In fact,...
by jeidsath
Thu May 23, 2019 3:40 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Most literal translations with facing texts?
Replies: 22
Views: 1051

Re: Most literal translations with facing texts?

I really like that format, actually. It's easy to only read the Greek, skipping the English, and then pause to check your understanding if you strike on a word you're unsure of. Very similar to Ilya Frank's method, which is worth looking up. My own recommendation for using it would be: First pass: r...
by jeidsath
Tue May 21, 2019 12:34 pm
Forum: Wheelock's Latin
Topic: Ch. 2 Wheelock's Sentence Translation
Replies: 7
Views: 824

Re: Ch. 2 Wheelock's Sentence Translation

The endings of the words provide some information about them: San am form am vit ae conserv ate English signals "direct object of the verb" by putting the word after the verb. "Maintain a ... form..." Latin signals it with an accusative ending, here form am . English puts an adjective before a noun ...
by jeidsath
Tue May 21, 2019 11:57 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: JOSEPHUS' ANTIQUITIES (Books XVI-XX) 4 Questions
Replies: 9
Views: 596

Re: JOSEPHUS' ANTIQUITIES (Books XVI-XX) 4 Questions

It doesn't feel right lumping gender reassignment surgery in with the ancient practice of (usually child) castration. People with gender dysphoria deserve enormous sympathy, having a mental condition that very frequently leads to disastrous outcomes (50% or higher risk of suicide or violence against...
by jeidsath
Tue May 21, 2019 12:24 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: JOSEPHUS' ANTIQUITIES (Books XVI-XX) 4 Questions
Replies: 9
Views: 596

Re: JOSEPHUS' ANTIQUITIES (Books XVI-XX) 4 Questions

If that's the context, then it would be extremely suggestive, yes. Whether an accusation that Alexander’s sexual relations with Eunuchs could be described as “gay sex” seems to me wrongheaded. I wonder in what Sexual category BrianB would put the Eunuchs. If “gay” is to mean sexual attraction for th...
by jeidsath
Mon May 20, 2019 7:30 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Pindar, Pythian 1
Replies: 4
Views: 339

Re: Pindar, Pythian 1

Btw, can someone explain why, in the first line, " καὶ " is scanned short? Epic correption. Very common in Homer, which you may wish to tackle before Pindar. A long vowel at the end of a word before another word beginning with a vowel, will often (though not always) scan as short. I've just correct...
by jeidsath
Mon May 20, 2019 6:45 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: JOSEPHUS' ANTIQUITIES (Books XVI-XX) 4 Questions
Replies: 9
Views: 596

Re: JOSEPHUS' ANTIQUITIES (Books XVI-XX) 4 Questions

Tentative answers to two of your four questions. (1) In Whiston’s eighteenth-century English, “criminal conversation” is a euphemism equivalent to “illicit intercourse”. So, yes, Herod’s son was paying for gay sex. Whiston's translation of this or what Whiston meant hardly matters. This was written...
by jeidsath
Sat May 18, 2019 10:19 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: HELLENISTIC SYNAGOGAL PRAYERS (100 - 380 AD) Question on "Positive Law"
Replies: 1
Views: 208

Re: HELLENISTIC SYNAGOGAL PRAYERS (100 - 380 AD) Question on "Positive Law"

In the first link you give, the Greek is νομικὴ παραίνεσις. From the words, I would think that meant "legal exhortation." (And that's what you got independently for the Russian now that I scroll down.) But I don't know anything about the general use or context. Lampe quotes this section in his entry...
by jeidsath
Thu May 16, 2019 2:03 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Did the Ancient Greeks Know They Were Greek
Replies: 9
Views: 813

Re: Did the Ancient Greeks Know They Were Greek

I don’t understand how anyone reading the first section of Herodotus could think that the Greeks had no sense of particular Greek identity. They were slightly more pluralistic than the Japanese or Jews, perhaps, and perhaps not quite as nationalistic about their city-states as 20th century Europeans...
by jeidsath
Wed May 15, 2019 4:31 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Greek third declension nouns
Replies: 6
Views: 461

Re: Greek third declension nouns

No worries. I've been using language for most of my life, and still have plenty of problems with it. The dative plural endings often show transformation due to the sigma. The ending is -σι, and different stems change differently when they come into contact with it. Things to watch out for are πσ = ψ...
by jeidsath
Wed May 15, 2019 3:58 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Greek third declension nouns
Replies: 6
Views: 461

Re: Greek third declension nouns

"Third person plural" is for verbs. Nouns don't have "person". In English, the person in "I go, you go, he goes, we go, you go, they go" is "I, you, he, we, you, they". Nouns have case and number instead. Singular/Dual/Plural and Nominative/Accusative/Dative/Genitive/Vocative. To find the plural for...
by jeidsath
Wed May 15, 2019 11:57 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Mathew 6:13 accent
Replies: 6
Views: 467

Re: Mathew 6:13 accent

τοῦς occurs 342 times in the TLG, always in later Greek. It's possible that it comes from the pronunciation confusion between final circumflex and final grave in stress-based Greek. But unless we can find some manuscripts that support that, it's as likely to come from bad digitization.
by jeidsath
Tue May 14, 2019 5:25 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Pl Symp 174b
Replies: 2
Views: 201

Re: Pl Symp 174b

From Dover: πῶς ἔχεις...b1 ἰέναι lit. 'in what condition are you with regard to being willing ἄν to go...?', i.e. 'how do you feel' (cf. 176b7) 'about possibly being willing...?'. ἄν is odd, but serves to make Socrates' question tentative and diffident. The manuscripts actually have not ἂν ἰέναι but...
by jeidsath
Mon May 13, 2019 8:04 pm
Forum: Composition Board
Topic: The Road to Serfdom in Cartoons
Replies: 10
Views: 881

Re: The Road to Serfdom in Cartoons

Is a serf a δοῦλος or servus? What about θής? (Εἵλως seems wrong). Or mancipium for the Latin?
by jeidsath
Sun May 12, 2019 8:06 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: 2 years of Greek
Replies: 11
Views: 6064

Re: 2 years of Greek

So do you use them primarily as an aid to reading fluency, and then translate once you've been through it a few times and feel like you have the sense of the passage, or do you recommend a line-by-line approach with editing later on if it's not making sense? All I can tell you is what I did in that...
by jeidsath
Sat May 11, 2019 1:34 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: diachronic syllabificiation of ἐξακολουθῶ
Replies: 17
Views: 1874

Re: diachronic syllabificiation of ἐξακολουθῶ

I plead guilty to having many misunderstandings and understanding all of this imperfectly. However, I'd like to link to a discussion at the beginning of West's review of Allen's Accent And Rhythm about their differences in the matter of syllabification, and his objections to Allen's motor theory exp...
by jeidsath
Sat May 11, 2019 1:30 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: 2 years of Greek
Replies: 11
Views: 6064

Re: 2 years of Greek

Well, I had two kids over the 3 years since then, and was busy during update time for two of those years. My Greek has improved enough that I can read Plato well enough without looking up words or using notes. Homer is still hard. If I'm not using a dictionary, I have to read a passage 5 or 6 times ...
by jeidsath
Sat May 11, 2019 1:11 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Ϝ in Homer
Replies: 32
Views: 13885

Re: Ϝ in Homer

The language change wouldn't have been uniform either. Not geographically, not temporally. Especially in the generations around the change, Homeric bards would have had the chance to hear Ϝ pronounced during their travels, and from old people. There are a million stories that could be spun here: ima...
by jeidsath
Fri May 10, 2019 11:24 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Ibycus 282 (a).40-48
Replies: 5
Views: 434

Re: Ibycus 282 (a).40-48

I'll need to look up Budelmann's notes, but reading this through, I thought that κλεος was directed towards the τοις. κλεος is fame/glory, but it's something capable of being sent or reported. Compare: ἀλλ᾿ ἦ τοι τάδε πάντα καταφλέξω πυρὶ κηλέῳ, οὐδὲν σοί γ᾿ ὄφελος, ἐπεὶ οὐκ ἐγκείσεαι αὐτοῖς, ἀλλὰ π...
by jeidsath
Thu May 09, 2019 3:27 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: A beginner’s question about breathings
Replies: 2
Views: 247

Re: A beginner’s question about breathings

One is a transliteration from the Hebrew/Aramaic, and the other is a folk etymology from Greek ἱερός, holy.
by jeidsath
Thu May 09, 2019 2:27 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: family vs. relatives? οἰκία, οἰκεῖος, συγγένεια, συγγενής
Replies: 14
Views: 965

Re: family vs. relatives? οἰκία, οἰκεῖος, συγγένεια, συγγενής

συγγενεῖς applies more widely than οἰκεῖοι
I didn't take that from the first Ammonius quote. It looks like he is saying that συγγενεῖς are out of the same family, though not quite as closely related as ἀγχιστεῖς, but that οἰκεῖοι include relatives by marriage.
by jeidsath
Thu May 09, 2019 12:29 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: family vs. relatives? οἰκία, οἰκεῖος, συγγένεια, συγγενής
Replies: 14
Views: 965

Re: family vs. relatives? οἰκία, οἰκεῖος, συγγένεια, συγγενής

οἰκεῖος is pretty loose. Here's Andocides 4.15:

καίτοι ὅστις ὑβρίζει γυναῖκα τὴν ἑαυτοῦ καὶ τῷ κηδεστῇ θάνατον ἐπιβουλεύει, τί χρὴ προσδοκᾶν τοῦτον περὶ τοὺς ἐντυχόντας τῶν πολιτῶν διαπράττεσθαι; πάντες γὰρ ἄνθρωποι τοὺς οἰκείους τῶν ἀλλοτρίων ποιοῦνται περὶ πλείονος.
by jeidsath
Thu May 09, 2019 2:06 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Classical Greek texts with macrons?
Replies: 21
Views: 1597

Re: Classical Greek texts with macrons?

I've heard the same from a diverse group. Nothing English-specific about it. The only way to learn the vowel quantities of a language is to actually learn the vowel quantities. If you spend a long time with a language without doing this, you won't get them right. There is nothing surprising about th...
by jeidsath
Thu May 09, 2019 12:06 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Classical Greek texts with macrons?
Replies: 21
Views: 1597

Re: Classical Greek texts with macrons?

How so? Obviously you won't have learnt correct quantities but why should you have learnt wrong ones? Why? I would think it's obvious. But before speaking of reasons, if you'd like to see the effect for yourself, go ask someone who has studied Greek (or Latin) this way to read a line of prose aloud...
by jeidsath
Wed May 08, 2019 2:42 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: The TLG all the way through. Anyone?
Replies: 10
Views: 831

Re: The TLG all the way through. Anyone?

There are only 110 million words in the TLG. If you can work yourself up to a good reading pace, say 100 words/min, and devote your working days to it, you'll be done in 6 years.