Search found 133 matches

by Andrew Chapman
Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:24 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Help with translation: Cyril of Alexandria
Replies: 4
Views: 2025

Re: Help with translation: Cyril of Alexandria

It looks like there is no critical edition - see e.g. Hans van Loon, The Dyophisite Christology of Cyril of Alexandria, p. 93, n. 126.

Andrew
by Andrew Chapman
Mon Oct 19, 2015 11:08 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Help with translation: Cyril of Alexandria
Replies: 4
Views: 2025

Re: Help with translation: Cyril of Alexandria

Michael, thank you so much, that is a great help. Almost the whole work is made up of these ἄλλο notes - he gives one argument on a subject, and then a succession of further arguments, introduced with ἄλλο. Your suggestion about ὡσπεροῦν with a comma before seems to work well. I'll see if I can find...
by Andrew Chapman
Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:21 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Help with translation: Cyril of Alexandria
Replies: 4
Views: 2025

Help with translation: Cyril of Alexandria

I am trying to get the sense of a passage in a work by Cyril of Alexandria, Thesaurus de Sancta et Consubstantial Trinitate. It's in chapter (λόγος) 34, and goes like this (Migne 75.576-7): ΑΛΛΟ. Φησί που Χριστὸς Ἰουδαίοις προσδιαλεγόμενος· Εἰ δὲ ἐν δακτύλῳ Θεοῦ ἐγὼ ἐκβάλλω τὰ δαιμόνια, ἄρα ἔφθασεν ...
by Andrew Chapman
Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:19 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: 1Timothy 2:12 - Phil Payne and the function of "oude"
Replies: 26
Views: 16716

Re: 1Timothy 2:12 - Phil Payne and the function of "oude"

So, his argument then is that, according to Paul, a woman can teach but not be a pastor? No, I think Payne would say that a woman can serve as a pastor in the church of the Lord Jesus Christ, so long as she is properly appointed and doesn't somehow seize or assume for herself that position. Then si...
by Andrew Chapman
Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:50 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: 1Timothy 2:12 - Phil Payne and the function of "oude"
Replies: 26
Views: 16716

Re: 1Timothy 2:12 - Phil Payne and the function of "oude"

Joking aside, is Payne's idea that women can teach as long as they don't have authority? Not exactly - he finds αὐθεντεῖν to mean 'to assume authority', and claims that what Paul does not permit is the combination of teaching and assuming authority - and then to put this into a normal English sente...
by Andrew Chapman
Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:33 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: 1Timothy 2:12 - Phil Payne and the function of "oude"
Replies: 26
Views: 16716

Re: 1Timothy 2:12 - Phil Payne and the function of "oude"

This is not a question to be settled by examining the use of ουδε (or of και, its positive counterpart) but by considering how the idea of a woman/wife διδασκειν-ing and the idea of her αυθεντειν-ανδρος-ing related to each other in the writer’s mind. It can be argued that he thought of them as two ...
by Andrew Chapman
Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:30 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: 1Timothy 2:12 - Phil Payne and the function of "oude"
Replies: 26
Views: 16716

Re: 1Timothy 2:12 - Phil Payne and the function of "oude"

I think getting into complex grammatical analysis benefits such arguments, because they rely on the vagueness and confusion that such complexity can produce. No complicated arguments are needed - all one really needs to do is look up οὐδέ in a lexicon and find out that the translation equivalent is...
by Andrew Chapman
Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:20 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: 1Timothy 2:12 - Phil Payne and the function of "oude"
Replies: 26
Views: 16716

Re: 1Timothy 2:12 - Phil Payne and the function of "oude"

Stirling, I thought it was not secular feminists but christian ones who do most of the language twisting and special pleading. Isn't that what Stirling was saying: 'the secular feminists have no problem understanding Paul'. The whole Payne theory is: didaskein + authentein andros = teach men in a d...
by Andrew Chapman
Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:16 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: 1Timothy 2:12 - Phil Payne and the function of "oude"
Replies: 26
Views: 16716

Re: 1Timothy 2:12 - Phil Payne and the function of "oude"

My original study of every instance of οὐδέ in the Pauline corpus argued as its central thesis that the vast majority of Paul’s οὐδέ clauses combine two elements to express a single idea. None of the responses I have seen to my original οὐδέ study challenge this central thesis. I find it a little s...
by Andrew Chapman
Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:40 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: At the mountain of Galilee (Mt. 28:16-17)
Replies: 28
Views: 15037

Re: At the mountain of Galilee (Mt. 28:16-17)

If we say 'they worshipped, but some doubted', does this mean that they all worshipped, but some of these also doubted; or does it mean that as a group (ie the majority), they worshipped, but that there some who didn't worship but rather doubted? This latter possibility is proposed by Meyer: οἱ δὲ ἐ...
by Andrew Chapman
Wed May 27, 2015 3:02 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: ἤ in 1Corinthians 14:36
Replies: 40
Views: 23067

Re: ἤ in 1Corinthians 14:36

36 follows on very comfortably, and makes particularly good sense of εἰς ὑμᾶς μονους there, after the ἐν πάσαις of 33. (26)Τί οὖν ἐστιν, ἀδελφοί; ὅταν συνέρχησθε, ἕκαστος ψαλμὸν ἔχει, διδαχὴν ἔχει, ἀποκάλυψιν ἔχει, γλῶσσαν ἔχει, ἑρμηνείαν ἔχει· πάντα πρὸς οἰκοδομὴν γινέσθω. (27) εἴτε γλώσσῃ τις λαλ...
by Andrew Chapman
Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:18 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: hendiadys with οὐδέ and 1Tim 2:12
Replies: 5
Views: 4225

Re: hendiadys with οὐδέ and 1Tim 2:12

Do you have a source which explicitly negates the existence of a verb + verb hendiadys? No, on the contrary, Denniston sees a phenomenon with verbs similar to what is normally thought of as the Greek hendiadys with substantives: http://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Denniston-hen...
by Andrew Chapman
Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:44 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: hendiadys with οὐδέ and 1Tim 2:12
Replies: 5
Views: 4225

Re: hendiadys with οὐδέ and 1Tim 2:12

Since this a clear example of an hendiadys with οὐδέ I wonder why 1Tim 2:12 cannot be a hendiadys as well. A Greek hendiadys, as described in the literature and the grammars, consists of two substantives placed side by side, joined by καί or τε. I found Sansone's article very helpful: http://womeni...
by Andrew Chapman
Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:22 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Origen on 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
Replies: 40
Views: 35518

Re: Origen on 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Thanks, Michael, I appreciate that. With regard to Markos's example, I think I might distinguish between the scripture and what is said in the scripture, but as Michael also has said, I had come to the conclusion that it was probably immaterial in this passage. I have been wondering, though, if I we...
by Andrew Chapman
Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:15 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Origen on 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
Replies: 40
Views: 35518

Re: Origen on 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Andrew, Forgive me if I bow out of this now. You have my two posts, and three's a crowd. Michael I am most grateful for your help with this, Michael. I don't yet understand why, if εκεινο refers to a passage of scripture, why it is the subject of a passive verb. I would have thought that a scriptur...
by Andrew Chapman
Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:22 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Origen on 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
Replies: 40
Views: 35518

Re: Origen on 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Thanks a lot, Michael, I get it now. I had got it into my head that this was Origen's paraphrase, rather than direct quotation, plus interspersed very cursory remarks. Sorry to be slow. "αἰσχρὸν γὰρ γυναικὶ λαλεῖν ἐν ἐκκλησίᾳ", καὶ "διδάσκειν δὲ γυναικὶ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω" ἁπλῶς ἀλλ’ "οὐδὲ αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρό...
by Andrew Chapman
Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:50 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Origen on 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
Replies: 40
Views: 35518

Re: Origen on 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

See also, earlier in the same passage of Origen's commentary: δεύτερον δὲ Εἰ καὶ προεφήτευον αἱ θυγατέρες Φιλίππου, ἀλλ’ οὐκ ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις ἔλεγον· οὐ γὰρ ἔχομεν τοῦτο ἐν ταῖς Πράξεσι τῶν Ἀποστόλων. ἀλλ’ οὐδ’ ἐν τῇ παλαιᾷ· ἀλλ’ οὐδ’ seems here to be without much or any sense of contrast. 'We don...
by Andrew Chapman
Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:32 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Origen on 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
Replies: 40
Views: 35518

Re: Origen on 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Thanks, all. With regard to οὐχ ἁπλῶς ἵνα διδάσκωσιν, it looks like Michael is taking ἁπλῶς more with ἵνα διδάσκωσιν. Reference of τουτο and εκεινο. τουτο refers to the 1 Tim. passage, the closer, and εκεινο to the 1 Cor. one, the more distant, which is said to be ασφαλεστερον (safer in the sense of...
by Andrew Chapman
Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:43 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Origen on 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
Replies: 40
Views: 35518

Re: Origen on 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

ὅτε ἐλάλησε Μαριὰμ ἡ προφῆτις ἄρχουσα ἦν τινων γυναικῶν· αἰσχρὸν γὰρ γυναικὶ λαλεῖν ἐν ἐκκλησίᾳ, (20) καὶ διδάσκειν δὲ γυναικὶ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω ἁπλῶς ἀλλ’ οὐδὲ αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός. Καὶ ἄλλοθεν δὲ τοῦτο παραστήσω, εἰ καὶ ἐκεῖνο ἀσφαλέστερον εἴρηται περὶ τοῦ μὴ τὴν γυναῖκα ἡγεμόνα γίνεσθαι τῷ λόγῳ τοῦ ἀνδρός...
by Andrew Chapman
Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:43 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: αὐθέντης in Alexander Rhetor.
Replies: 18
Views: 11172

Re: αὐθέντης in Alexander Rhetor.

Hainsworth on Iliad 9.694: Zenodotus (Did/AT) did not read this verse but, as usual, it was read but athetized by Aristophanes and Aristarchus. Their objection was that κρατερῶς described the manner of Akhilleus, not that of Odysseus: true, but the objection fails to take account ot the habits of fo...
by Andrew Chapman
Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:48 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: αὐθέντης in Alexander Rhetor.
Replies: 18
Views: 11172

Re: αὐθέντης in Alexander Rhetor.

Thanks very much, Bill. I will dip into Kennedy and Lausberg today and see if there is perhaps a short introduction that would fill in some of the background. I gather from what you say that Alexander's reference may not be to the real-life decision-making of his day but to ancient forms, as practis...
by Andrew Chapman
Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:24 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: αὐθέντης in Alexander Rhetor.
Replies: 18
Views: 11172

Re: αὐθέντης in Alexander Rhetor.

Alexander is discussing "symbouleutic" rhetoric here. That was a conventional category of rhetoric involving speeches addressing policy issues delivered before deliberative bodies, not dialogues among the members. He's discussing the audience of the rhetor--he observes that in the context of delibe...
by Andrew Chapman
Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:22 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: αὐθέντης in Alexander Rhetor.
Replies: 18
Views: 11172

Re: αὐθέντης in Alexander Rhetor.

Thanks, Qimmik. The one commentator I found who defends the verse is Hainsworth. Do you think this kind of meaning - author, agent, doer - is a possibility in the Alexander text: τοῖς δὲ ἀκροαταῖς, ὅτι ἐν μὲν ταῖς συμβουλαῖς αὐθένται εἰσὶν οἱ ἀκροώμενοι· βουλεύονται γάρ, τί αὐτοῖς πρακτέον ἐκείνοις ...
by Andrew Chapman
Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:35 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: αὐθέντης in Alexander Rhetor.
Replies: 18
Views: 11172

Re: αὐθέντης in Alexander Rhetor.

Thanks, Qimmik, and thanks for further explaining mwh's point that the division of encomium was only for the sake of consistency with the other two types of speech. With regard to αὐθέντης, I can seen now that it could refer to someone with authority to decide. But it can also refer to someone who a...
by Andrew Chapman
Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:23 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Inspecting 1 John 1:1
Replies: 514
Views: 194926

Re: Inspecting 1 John 1:1

You now seem to be doing an about turn and denying that λόγος τῆς ζωῆς is a reference to ὃ in 1 John 1:1. Is that correct ? You had said that: Meyer is correct that the antecedent of ὃ in 1 John 1:1 is ὁ λόγος τῆς ζωῆς. I was pointing out that he never said that it was the grammatical antecedent. H...
by Andrew Chapman
Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:08 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Inspecting 1 John 1:1
Replies: 514
Views: 194926

Re: Inspecting 1 John 1:1

Hi Andrew, Why would the apostle use the neuter form of the pronoun to refer to ὁ λόγος (masculine) / Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ (masculine) ? Here is Meyer: ὃ ἦν ἀπʼ ἀρχῆς] This thought, indefinite in itself, is more fully explained by the following relative clauses to this extent, that “that which was from th...
by Andrew Chapman
Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:00 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Inspecting 1 John 1:1
Replies: 514
Views: 194926

Re: Inspecting 1 John 1:1

Why would the apostle use the neuter form of the pronoun to refer to ὁ λόγος (masculine) / Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ (masculine) ? Here is Meyer: ὃ ἦν ἀπʼ ἀρχῆς] This thought, indefinite in itself, is more fully explained by the following relative clauses to this extent, that “that which was from the beginning...
by Andrew Chapman
Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:33 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: αὐθέντης in Alexander Rhetor.
Replies: 18
Views: 11172

Re: αὐθέντης in Alexander Rhetor.

Much appreciated, Michael. I have incorporated your changes, as best I can. I will have a look at Kennedy and Lausberg (who I see has been translated, and has an index to Greek terms). I have just seen that Liddell and Scott give 'general question: special case' for 'θέσις: ὐπόθεσις, which also make...
by Andrew Chapman
Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:34 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: αὐθέντης in Alexander Rhetor.
Replies: 18
Views: 11172

αὐθέντης in Alexander Rhetor.

αὐθέντης occurs near the beginning of a text by Alexander Rhetor (2nd century AD), so I thought I would try reading from the beginning, to see if I could get the gist at least of what he was saying. The text reads [Leonardi Spengel, Rhetores Graeci (Lipsiae: Teubneri 1856), Chapter 18]:  Ὁ Ἀλέξανδρό...
by Andrew Chapman
Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:26 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Inspecting 1 John 1:1
Replies: 514
Views: 194926

Re: Inspecting 1 John 1:1

The referent of the second ὅ (in ὅ ἀκηκόαμεν), for example, is what they heard. They heard something, right? And it was about the word of life, as we are told later in the verse. This is the referent - it's what they heard. Taking this a bit further, consider being having been a witness to a murder....
by Andrew Chapman
Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:00 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Inspecting 1 John 1:1
Replies: 514
Views: 194926

Re: Inspecting 1 John 1:1

ὃ λέγω ὑμῖν ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ, εἴπατε ἐν τῷ φωτί· καὶ ὃ εἰς τὸ οὖς ἀκούετε, κηρύξατε ἐπὶ τῶν δωμάτων. You have provided a good example yourself of this very common use of the relative pronoun. Changing the word order around, in the same way as you want to do, we would have: εἴπατε ἐν τῷ φωτί, ὃ λέγω ὑμῖ...
by Andrew Chapman
Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:19 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Inspecting 1 John 1:1
Replies: 514
Views: 194926

Re: Inspecting 1 John 1:1

Consider : "The thing which was from the beginning, which we heard (or have heard), which we saw with our own eyes , which we beheld and our hands touched, [I'm writing ] concerning the Word , the Life." A little bit choppy, but by no means ungrammatical even in English, as is. Excellent, you have ...
by Andrew Chapman
Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:07 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Inspecting 1 John 1:1
Replies: 514
Views: 194926

Re: Inspecting 1 John 1:1

Do you have any examples of an adjectival relative clause being situated so far prior to its antecedent as it is in your understanding of 1 John 1.1 : [adjectival clause(s) modifying λόγου] (γράφω) περὶ τοῦ λόγου τῆς ζωῆς. You could not write, say: τοῦ ἁγίου (γράφω) περὶ τοῦ λόγου τῆς ζωῆς. And I v...
by Andrew Chapman
Sun Oct 05, 2014 12:39 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Inspecting 1 John 1:1
Replies: 514
Views: 194926

Re: Inspecting 1 John 1:1

I cited 1 John 2:8 earlier in this regard, but since memories are short, I shall do so again : πάλιν ἐντολὴν καινὴν γράφω ὑμῖν, ὅ ἐστιν ἀληθὲς ἐν αὐτῷ καὶ ἐν ὑμῖν, ὅτι ἡ σκοτία παράγεται καὶ τὸ φῶς τὸ ἀληθινὸν ἤδη φαίνει. Do you have any examples of an adjectival relative clause being situated so f...
by Andrew Chapman
Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Inspecting 1 John 1:1
Replies: 514
Views: 194926

Re: Inspecting 1 John 1:1

Also notice that sometimes a verbal idea is implied in a construction with conjunction and relative pronoun as in 1 Cor. 10:20 -- ἀλλ’ ὅτι ἃ θύουσιν, δαιμονίοις καὶ οὐ Θεῷ θύουσιν· οὐ θέλω δὲ ὑμᾶς κοινωνοὺς τῶν δαιμονίων γίνεσθαι. King James 2000 Bible But I say , that the things which the Gentiles...
by Andrew Chapman
Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:19 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Inspecting 1 John 1:1
Replies: 514
Views: 194926

Re: Inspecting 1 John 1:1

That's her problem, isn't it , which she has now been urged to acknowledge and [hopefully] confront. OK fine, I think that may be possible grammatically. I would be interested to know if there is another person on the planet who agrees with you (that Jesus is telling her to call some other man than...
by Andrew Chapman
Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:48 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Inspecting 1 John 1:1
Replies: 514
Views: 194926

Re: Inspecting 1 John 1:1

That's her problem, isn't it , which she has now been urged to acknowledge and [hopefully] confront. OK fine, I think that may be possible grammatically. I would be interested to know if there is another person on the planet who agrees with you (that Jesus is telling her to call some other man than...
by Andrew Chapman
Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:22 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Inspecting 1 John 1:1
Replies: 514
Views: 194926

Re: Inspecting 1 John 1:1

What I'm trying to point out to the two of you is that νῦν ὃν ἔχεις [The man you have now] οὐκ ἔστιν [is not] σου ἀνήρ [ your husband] means the same thing as σου ἀνήρ [Your husband] οὐκ ἔστιν [is not] νῦν ὃν ἔχεις [the man you have now]. I don't think that's right. ' Your husband is not the man yo...
by Andrew Chapman
Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:22 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: ἢ παισὶν αὐθένταισι κοινωνῇ δόμων (Euripides)
Replies: 43
Views: 23930

Re: ἢ παισὶν αὐθένταισι κοινωνῇ δόμων (Euripides)

Ἀλλ` εἰ δε[ῖ τἀληθῆ κα[ὶ γι]νόμενα [λέγειν, οἱ ῥ[ήτ]ορες καὶ μ[εγάλα βλάπτ[ουσι] πολλοὺς [καὶ μεγάλους καὶ περὶ τῶν [„δει]νοῖς ἔρωσι το[ξ]ευομένων“ πρὸς τοὺς ἐπιφαν[εστάτους ἐκάστοτε διαμάχονται καὶ „σὺν αὐθεντ[οῦ]σιν ἄν[αξιν]“ ὑπὲρ τῶν ὁμοίων ὡσ[αύτως. 'But to tell the truth and the actualities, th...
by Andrew Chapman
Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:39 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: ἢ παισὶν αὐθένταισι κοινωνῇ δόμων (Euripides)
Replies: 43
Views: 23930

Re: ἢ παισὶν αὐθένταισι κοινωνῇ δόμων (Euripides)

Wonderful, thanks a lot, Bill, that's all clear now. σὺν end of first half of dactylic hexameter αὐ/θεν _ _ τοῦ/σιν/ ἄ _ v v να(κ)/(σ)ιν _ b 3 iambic metrons to 1 trimeter 6 dactylic feet to 1 hexameter. This thread has gone in several different, and, to me at least, interesting, directions. I hope ...