Search found 3061 matches

by mwh
Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:13 pm
Forum: Latin Poetry
Topic: Reading early fragments
Replies: 5
Views: 97

Re: Reading early fragments

Why not Plautus indeed? But if you set out to read all the surviving Plautine plays you will certainly get surfeited well before you finish them. The same goes for Cicero and Caesar, and Livy, and others. And I can only pity people who can bring themselves to read all of Silius Italicus. I recommend...
by mwh
Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:11 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: omission of εἴναι? Meno 76c
Replies: 2
Views: 47

Re: omission of εἴναι? Meno 76c

I wouldn’t say εἴναι is omitted. You can think of it like that if you want, but remember λέγειν (and dicere) can mean “speak of” without an infinitive. “Ascertain” is wrong.
by mwh
Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:15 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 24-47
Replies: 16
Views: 395

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 24-47

I should have said “further realism.” Such basic human things as emotions and reactions are remarkably realistic, even when it’s clear that it’s the poet who’s in control.
by mwh
Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:11 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Ar.Arch.947 Bœotian θερίδδειν
Replies: 2
Views: 106

Re: Ar.Arch.947 Bœotian θερίδδειν

No it’s just the “Boeotian” rendering of Attic θερίζειν, however problematic the imagery might seem.
by mwh
Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:25 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 24-47
Replies: 16
Views: 395

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 24-47

I’d say it’s “convincing” enough. Having had such a dream, she acts on it. That’s an experience I dare say most of us have had. And it’s the standard Homeric pattern, so we shouldn’t really expect anything else. The prominent marriage motif sufficiently explains why she needs her clothes to be clean...
by mwh
Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:18 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ἀλλά Meno 71c
Replies: 1
Views: 73

Re: ἀλλά Meno 71c

It’s a normal enough use of ἀλλά, in that it contrasts one thing with another. If it helps, you can think of it as elliptical: “but instead (of learning what you say arete is), are we to report …?” The use in the Medea passage is somewhat comparable: “but instead (of my persuading you), will you dri...
by mwh
Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:00 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Cic. de natura deorum, book i, ch. 31
Replies: 13
Views: 324

Re: Cic. de natura deorum, book i, ch. 31

As I read it, Velleius is meant to represent a dogmatic fathead Euripidean. Obviously you meant “Epicurean.” But I would take exception to your characterization. Dogmatic maybe—that’s in the nature of the whole dialogue—but there’s nothing fatheaded about Velleius, nor does Cicero represent his vie...
by mwh
Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:56 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 3.134
Replies: 3
Views: 110

Re: Herodotus 3.134

Is it a sort of mild injunctive, more polite than an imperative? "For you should accomplish some deed now, as long as you are young"? I think this is exactly right. It’s a particular species of potential optative, fairly common in tragedy, which I’ve seen referred to (in an old article by Richmond ...
by mwh
Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:27 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: JOSEPHUS' ANTIQUITIES (Books I-XVI) 4 Questions
Replies: 7
Views: 592

Re: JOSEPHUS' ANTIQUITIES (Books I-XVI) 4 Questions

… τὰς δύο πλάκας, ἐν αἷς τοὺς δέκα λόγους συγγεγράφθαι συμβεβήκει ἀνὰ πέντε μὲν εἰς ἑκατέραν ἀνὰ δύο δὲ καὶ ἥμισυ κατὰ μέτωπον. This says that the ten commandments were split between the two slabs, five on each (ἀνὰ πέντε μὲν εἰς ἑκατέραν), two and a half commandments per column (ἀνὰ δύο δὲ καὶ ἥμισ...
by mwh
Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:02 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Ανάγκη
Replies: 34
Views: 1181

Re: Ανάγκη

I wonder how you arrive at that conclusion. Unless you explain your understanding of the passage you will get no more answers from me.
by mwh
Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:25 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Absence of αν, Symp 198c
Replies: 1
Views: 135

Re: Absence of αν, Symp 198c

αν in the apodosis, i.e. with ᾠχόμην, would mean “I would be all but running away,” but that wouldn’t make sense here. He’s saying he was all but running away. (Note ὀλίγου "all but," "almost.") It’s factual, not “unreal."

He is not, of course, sincere.
by mwh
Mon May 13, 2019 8:14 pm
Forum: Composition Board
Topic: The Road to Serfdom in Cartoons
Replies: 11
Views: 955

Re: The Road to Serfdom in Cartoons

Ἡ πρὸς δουλείαν ὁδὸς ἐν εἴκοσιν
"in 20 <steps>"? :twisted:

i.e. correct the accent.
by mwh
Sat May 04, 2019 1:56 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Classical Greek texts with macrons?
Replies: 21
Views: 1661

Re: Classical Greek texts with macrons?

Eta and o-mega were latecomers into the Greek alphabet; in early days all five vowels went without long/short differentiation in writing, and separate letters were never invented for long alpha iota upsilon. Readers normally had no need of makron marking, any more than we feel the need to mark long ...
by mwh
Sat May 04, 2019 1:48 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Classical Greek texts with macrons?
Replies: 21
Views: 1661

Re: Classical Greek texts with macrons?

Duplicate deleted.
by mwh
Thu May 02, 2019 7:50 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Χριστὸς ἀνέστη?
Replies: 9
Views: 1066

Re: Χριστὸς ἀνέστη?

Not true. Most "second" aorists are transitive. And Constantin, So far today you have posted at least thirteen posts, and not a single one is helpful or consequential. Might I suggest you post only when you have a thoughtful question to ask or when you have a substantive contribution to make? There ...
by mwh
Thu May 02, 2019 6:46 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Délibération subj
Replies: 3
Views: 287

Re: Délibération subj

You should think twice before disagreeing with Burnet—or simply think. προσθῇς ἢ ἀφέλῃς is clearly dependent on ἵνα, just as μή τι διαφύγῃ ἡμᾶς is. You failed to take τε “and” into account, which links the two parts of the ἵνα clause, the one negative, the other positive. Your suggestion was nonsens...
by mwh
Wed May 01, 2019 9:07 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Il 362
Replies: 5
Views: 611

Re: Il 362

Constantin’s method of scanning is just as good as Barry’s, if not better (less question-begging). But both are badly inadequate, inasmuch as they fail to recognize the caesura, here coinciding with the syntactical structure. There’s only one break in the line, and it comes after κλαιεις. Scanning f...
by mwh
Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:18 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Empta intercessione
Replies: 5
Views: 508

Re: Empta intercessione

He's claiming the intercession was “bought” i.e. procured by bribery. Vote buying is not a new practice.
by mwh
Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:12 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: The Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek
Replies: 22
Views: 4207

Re: The Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek

Many copies of the grammar have been distributed, unsolicited and gratis, to classicists in the US, and perhaps in the UK and elsewhere too. (Not, of course, to their students.) So I was wrong to say it’s not well positioned to gain much traction. Cambridge is really keen to establish this as the st...
by mwh
Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:29 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Elision in Greek Prose
Replies: 3
Views: 334

Re: Elision in Greek Prose

In antiquity elided vowels were often written in full (“scriptio plena”), as likewise in our modern printed prose texts, but it’s safe to assume that elision was normally effected, except at a break such as the end of a clause. No-one will have said δὲ ἄρχεται, for instance.
by mwh
Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:25 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series
Replies: 45
Views: 4081

Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

We live and learn. And there’s a difference between singing someone and singing about them. The Homeric hymn to Demeter starts Δήμητρ᾽ ἠύκομον, σεμνὴν θεόν, ἄρχομ᾽ ἀείδειν, and Vergil’s Aeneid (where you will again encounter Palinurus) starts arma virumque cano.
by mwh
Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:38 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Supter with acc
Replies: 7
Views: 585

Re: Supter with acc

I find it more rewarding to read Latin than grammars. supter: I think not only of Lucretius’ proemium but also of Catullus’ pathetic poem on the death of his brother, Cat.66: Troia Rhoeteo quem supter litore tellus, a line that Vergil would have been proud of. There supter is no different from sub, ...
by mwh
Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:34 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series
Replies: 45
Views: 4081

Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

In chapter XX.3 of Fabellae Latinae, "absentem cantat amīcam" was surprising to me. I had only seen the verb used transitively before this. Is "absentis amica" a specific song? Not sure I follow this. cantat is being used transitively. (Cf. μῆνιν ἄειδε.) And his amica is not absentis (genitive) but...
by mwh
Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:53 am
Forum: Composition Board
Topic: Lyric Poetry in Attic?
Replies: 2
Views: 300

Re: Lyric Poetry in Attic?

As you realize, there are generic proprieties, dialectal and other. The lyric parts of Attic drama are composed in a dialectally much watered-down version of “Doric” lyric poetry (Stesichorus, Bacchylides, etc.). Their vocabulary is significantly more elevated than the non-lyric parts and is specifi...
by mwh
Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:32 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Supter with acc
Replies: 7
Views: 585

Re: Supter with acc

No you have not understood. In the Lucretius there is motion, as I explicitly said and explained.
by mwh
Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:35 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Ώσπερ έχει ουτως
Replies: 2
Views: 258

Re: Ώσπερ έχει ουτως

ὥσπερ and οὕτως are correlative. ὥσπερ ἔχει, οὕτως ἂν ἡγήσατο “just as it is, so would he have thought," i.e. “he would correctly have thought …” or “he’d have thought, as is in fact the case, …,”
by mwh
Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:34 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Supter with acc
Replies: 7
Views: 585

Re: Supter with acc

But there is motion. Just as the constellations slide over the earth and ocean (from a terrestrial viewpoint), so earth and ocean correspondingly slide beneath them. Nothing stands still in Lucretius. Besides, this is a highly poetic passage.
by mwh
Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:19 am
Forum: Latin Poetry
Topic: Introduction to Latin poetry
Replies: 22
Views: 2384

Re: Introduction to Latin poetry

jeidsath, Two things on these early Latin iambic meters (and analogously on the trochaic ones). # These three verse forms, corresponding respectively to the Greek iambic trimeter and the catalectic and acatalectic iambic tetrameter, show only the basic structure, which admits of multiple variations—...
by mwh
Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:30 pm
Forum: Latin Poetry
Topic: Introduction to Latin poetry
Replies: 22
Views: 2384

Re: Introduction to Latin poetry

Sorry Hylander, that won't wash. The stress patterns are a port of the poetry, a highly significant part, as you must be aware. Features that are killed stone dead by bashing the beat come to life when so-called ictus ("ictus fictus," as I think you once quipped) is simply ignored. Ictus inheres in ...
by mwh
Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:41 pm
Forum: Latin Poetry
Topic: Introduction to Latin poetry
Replies: 22
Views: 2384

Re: Introduction to Latin poetry

What I actually meant about elision as opposed to correption was not orthographical practice with regard to elision (that’s merely superficial) but the fact that word-final long vowels in classical Latin verse, when followed by a word beginning with a vowel, are normally fully elided (that is, they ...
by mwh
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:20 am
Forum: Latin Poetry
Topic: Introduction to Latin poetry
Replies: 22
Views: 2384

Re: Introduction to Latin poetry

A few fundamentals. 1. Latin takes over the Greek stichic meters (dactylic hexameter, elegiac; iambic and trochaic in various lengths). Catullus and Horace introduce the Lesbian meters too. 2. Archaic Latin comedy (esp. Plautus) is very different from classical Latin, both in its patterns of stress ...
by mwh
Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:20 pm
Forum: Composition Board
Topic: iambic practice
Replies: 5
Views: 620

Re: iambic practice

Well, you won’t improve on Euripides and I won’t comment on your attempt beyond saying that your best line is κοὐδείς κάτοιδεν εἰ μενεῖ τὸ ζῆν ἔτι and your worst probably οὔ μοι δοκεἶ. πῶς γὰρ ἂν; μου δέ συ κλύῃς, which doesn’t come close to being metrical. Incidentally, Heracles’ little disquisitio...
by mwh
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:18 pm
Forum: Composition Board
Topic: Latin for lollies?
Replies: 5
Views: 635

Re: Latin for lollies?

Very nicely done. ros tuum flebit, periture, lapsum nocte cadente is excellent (though the imagery is hardly Latin). In the final stanza tellus fit mage tota is I suppose defensible (since much of the earth already is coal) but mage is jarring with tota. I think the postponed ut with pyxidem is unob...
by mwh
Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:56 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Dubious construction
Replies: 4
Views: 470

Re: Dubious construction

This is an artificially contrived ambiguity. In context (Plato’s version of Socrates’ defense speech) there’s not the slightest doubt as to the meaning. Besides, in the original sentence isn’t there a ἑκών too? That makes it absolutely clear (as if there could be any doubt) that the speaker is the s...
by mwh
Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:05 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plutarch, Agis, 17.2 placing the verb inside the subject
Replies: 18
Views: 1372

Re: Plutarch, Agis, 17.2 placing the verb inside the subject

I wouldn't speak of reasons but of functions. And I'd deconstruct your tripartition.
That's all from me for now.
by mwh
Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:35 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille
Replies: 48
Views: 51617

Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Time magazine described Winnie Ille Pu on first publication as “a Latinist's delight, the very book that dozens of Americans, possibly even 50, have been waiting for.” But it sold a little more widely than that, and I was one who found it a delight, and very clever. Obviously it’s no way to learn La...
by mwh
Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:34 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Hæc enim sanctarum Scripturarum editio, cum Sixto v regnante patrata fuisset
Replies: 1
Views: 265

Re: Hæc enim sanctarum Scripturarum editio, cum Sixto v regnante patrata fuisset

“Pope Clement VIII's name is attached (“adhaeret”) to the Vulgate by happenstance. For while this edition of the holy Scriptures was prepared in the reign of Sixtus V, on his death it was published under Clement's pontificate.” The reference is to a revision of Jerome’s Vulgate overseen by Sixtus. C...
by mwh
Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:31 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plutarch, Agis, 17.2 placing the verb inside the subject
Replies: 18
Views: 1372

Re: Plutarch, Agis, 17.2 placing the verb inside the subject

(@ ἑκηβόλος. Written earlier but not posted) δεῖ με … ἐγκαταβιῶναι ταύταις ταῖς συμφοραῖς. Your proffered alternative, δεῖ με … καταβιῶναι ταύταις ταῖς συμφοραῖς would scarcely make sense. He could have written δεῖ με καταβιῶναι ἐν ταύταις ταῖς συμφοραῖς, but the preposition was already incorporated...
by mwh
Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:51 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Aorist /pres inf not in oration obliqua
Replies: 5
Views: 558

Re: Aorist /pres inf not in oration obliqua

The pres./aor. aspectual distinction, which I tried to explain in terms of “process” vs. “event” in response to the OP’s difficulty, doesn’t only apply in the infinitive, but much more broadly, across all moods. Xenophon says “We were willing to make him king,” using the present infinitive καθιστανα...
by mwh
Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:28 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Two More Unit 10 Questions
Replies: 15
Views: 1166

Re: Two More Unit 10 Questions

There was actually a thread about that.. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61883. (If Qimmik sounds awfully much like Hylander, there's a reason for that.)