Search found 2862 matches

by mwh
Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:55 pm
Forum: Latin Poetry
Topic: Latin translation by T.S.Evans of an English poem
Replies: 9
Views: 1214

Re: Latin translation by T.S.Evans of an English poem

As you can see, I implored Anthony to “please correct the absurd heading” and when he replied as he did (above) I let it go, thinking everyone could have a good laugh. But apparently no-one even noticed.

I won't take you up on Prufrock (though I'm tempted) and I hope no-one else will either.
by mwh
Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:50 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plato Rep. 361e middle for passive futures
Replies: 3
Views: 56

Re: Plato Rep. 361e middle for passive futures

More directly, Smyth 1737-38, making a semantic distinction that doesn't always (or often) apply, certainly not in verse.
by mwh
Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:48 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Some questions for Demosthenes, Against Aristogiton 1.
Replies: 13
Views: 169

Re: Some questions for Demosthenes, Against Aristogiton 1.

I have no time to deal with these, but I’ll note that your last question, as is all too often the way with your questions, has a false premise. The adjectives are not accusative but nominative. And on the οσῳ … question, see the pinned Conditionals thread, esp. “this system applies not only to if-cl...
by mwh
Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:15 am
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Questions on the "Greek Anthology"(espec. Loeb and "others?")
Replies: 5
Views: 103

Re: Questions on the "Greek Anthology"(espec. Loeb and "others?")

Paton’s old Loeb may be your best bet. For scholarly commentary you should use Gow&Page’s The Greek Anthology (2 vols.), supplemented by their Garland of Philip. These cover the Anthology’s older strata, down to about 50 CE. Vol.1 gives the text and translation (organized differently from the transm...
by mwh
Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:59 am
Forum: Composition Board
Topic: Elegiac couplets
Replies: 8
Views: 158

Re: Elegiac couplets

The take-away on this particular point: You should not have used perula to mean a pearl. See the entry in the Oxford Latin Dictionary, which it looks as if you should make more use of. More substantively, your idiosyncratic imagery (e.g. lumina blanda pluunt, which admittedly sounds lovely) is fuzzi...
by mwh
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:55 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: 'nullus' in Greek
Replies: 3
Views: 113

Re: 'nullus' in Greek

In translating you shouldn’t be looking for word-by-word equivalents but for something that renders the sense as exactly as possible. Here you’d simply use a negative. E.g. εν ταυτη γε τη οικια ουχ ευρεθησεται οπλα. That corresponds well. You could strengthen the negative by using ουδαμως (ουχ ευρεθ...
by mwh
Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:38 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: A sentence from Athenaze
Replies: 12
Views: 557

Re: A sentence from Athenaze

For me it’s less a matter of analyzing ωστε as a word than of recognizing its syntactically subordinating function in actual use, even when the leading verb is without a correlative ουτως or τοσουτον or the like. That other post seems fine to me. Of course there’s no way of telling whether αν ειναι ...
by mwh
Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:37 pm
Forum: Composition Board
Topic: Elegiac couplets
Replies: 8
Views: 158

Re: Elegiac couplets

A very promising attempt. First line is nice, but supra has heavy first syllable (it’s really supera, so the lengthening is compensatory). Try super? 2nd is hard to understand. And what’s perula? If a diminutive of pera (a loanword from Gk. πηρα) it doesn’t scan and with magna is kinda contradictory...
by mwh
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:37 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Another Mistake by a German Professor?
Replies: 5
Views: 154

Re: Another Mistake by a German Professor?

And that’s not all. συμβέβηκεν ἄν?! ἐνδεδυμένοι ἦεν?! Not even on textkit have I seen such atrocious Greek.

The Greek equivalent of https://www.exclassics.com/espoke/espk6.htm?
by mwh
Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:41 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὁσάκις ἂν
Replies: 30
Views: 424

Re: ὁσάκις ἂν

Yes. Case in point: it wasn’t till 1802 that Porson’s law was discovered! Before that scholars had been happily perpetrating multitudes of verses a single one of which would have had an ancient Greek audience on its feet hissing and yelling and hurling things.
by mwh
Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:36 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: A sentence from Athenaze
Replies: 12
Views: 557

Re: A sentence from Athenaze

Thanks for conceding, Hylander. It’s true that editors do sometimes start a new sentence with ωστε + indicative, even if I don’t think they should.
And of course it doesn’t have to be indicative. E.g. Soph.El.333 ὥστ’ αν … δηλωσαιμ’ αν οἷ’ αυτοις φρονῶ.
by mwh
Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:20 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὁσάκις ἂν
Replies: 30
Views: 424

Re: ὁσάκις ἂν

To sum up (again). Opt.+αν here is highly anomalous. I can find no parallel to it, or nothing closer than the quote I gave from Smyth 2406. It betrays an inadequate grasp of ancient Greek. bedwere proposes to normalize it by changing the optative to the subjunctive. That’s what it ought to have been...
by mwh
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:58 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὁσάκις ἂν
Replies: 30
Views: 424

Re: ὁσάκις ἂν

msw - Is it a "slip"? If this is addressed to me: Yes it is, though it may not have been recognized as such in 1731, any more than it was by you and Aetos in 2018. Even Germans have been known to make mistakes. To sum up. Opt.+αν here is highly anomalous. I can find no parallel to it, or nothing cl...
by mwh
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:41 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὁσάκις ἂν
Replies: 30
Views: 424

Re: ὁσάκις ἂν

As I suggested, I think the only way one could possibly make a case for opt.+αν here is by comparing επιχειρεῖ, ἡνικ’ αν ημεις μη δυναιμεθα … (Smyth 2406), and that is not really comparable. So it’s untenable (illegal, invalid, incorrect, wrong, ...). Plain opt. would be fine if εκκορουμεν were a hi...
by mwh
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:32 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: A sentence from Athenaze
Replies: 12
Views: 557

Re: A sentence from Athenaze

My own disagreement with Hylander would be with his denying that ωστε+indic. is a subordinate clause. But I don’t want to argue the point.
by mwh
Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:57 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: ἀθανασία
Replies: 27
Views: 533

Re: ἀθανασία

Time to remove this undying (but not uncorrupted) thread from the Learning Greek forum? It’s quite enough to have it here.

Or start a new topic on the immortality of the nightingale?
by mwh
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:47 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὁσάκις ἂν
Replies: 30
Views: 424

Re: ὁσάκις ἂν

I'm with Hylander on this. As I put it more widely in the pinned Conditionals thread, “A main clause is not affected at all by whether or not there’s an if-clause with it.” As for bedwere’s original query, the subjunctive is certainly what you’d expect (and that’s what you’d naturally use to transla...
by mwh
Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:16 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Septuaginta Reader's Edition
Replies: 16
Views: 1537

Re: Septuaginta Reader's Edition

Sorry, only just spotted this. I only meant that if you want to improve your Greek, reading the LXX is one of the worst ways to go about it, because its language is tainted to various degrees by the syntax and forms of expression of the Hebrew that it aims to translate. But I expect you know that, a...
by mwh
Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:06 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Philoctetes, questions.
Replies: 9
Views: 273

Re: Philoctetes, questions.

Just to add a little. Ἀχιλλέως παῖ Νεοπτόλεμε, τὸν Μηλιᾶ Νεο- must have been slurred to produce a long vowel, probably something like νου-, cf. e.g. νουμηνία, or φιλεοντα>φιλουντα. Neoptolemus is not an easy name to fit into iambics! and Sophocles does it only when it’s absolutely necessary—here and...
by mwh
Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:01 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens
Replies: 69
Views: 2931

Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

You don’t need Latin for Brasidas and Strepsiades. And actually, you can always just transliterate the Greek. Kleon not Cleon, etc. etc. That’s become rather fashionable in fact. So it’s even ok to write Thoukudides, though with familiar names it’s still customary to use the familiar latinized forms...
by mwh
Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:50 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens
Replies: 69
Views: 2931

Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

First Brasidus (where I actually mentioned –ιδης), now Strepsiadus. Joel, you can’t realize how cringemaking these are. I enjoyed dikaiopolis’ What does it signify? note, once I’d seen Joel’s translation. Yes, τί δῆτα moves straight on to Streps’s next Socratic-type question. First he posed the rain...
by mwh
Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:42 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: What is the joke? (Aelianus De Natura Animalium)
Replies: 4
Views: 202

Re: What is the joke? (Aelianus De Natura Animalium)

Hylander: Hor.Od.3.16 Inclusam Danaen … | si non Acrisium …!
by mwh
Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:02 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens
Replies: 69
Views: 2931

Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Eileithuia is the goddess of childbirth, and that's all that τοκος means here, there's no play on words. A οσιον χωριον is (despite appearances) a non-sacred place, one where it's OK to give birth, as distinct from a ιερον place such as a sanctuary, where it's not. It's a quote from the Lysistrata.
by mwh
Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:21 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Ask through where? "per quem locum?"
Replies: 8
Views: 226

Re: Ask through where? "per quem locum?"

Interesting, Miguel, thanks. I like the way Italian does it myself—none of this “etymological” nonsense, just spell it as it sounds and say it as it’s spelled. Impossible in English of course, and would be barbaric in French (thanks to the Académie francaise?) though I gather there have been a few (...
by mwh
Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:05 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: What is the joke? (Aelianus De Natura Animalium)
Replies: 4
Views: 202

Re: What is the joke? (Aelianus De Natura Animalium)

It’s certainly not much of a joke. I guess he’s just excusing his flippancy in pointing out the analogy with the famous myth.

Gilgamesh as Perseus. Hmm…
by mwh
Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:44 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens
Replies: 69
Views: 2931

Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Brasidas, not Brasidus. He’s a Spartan, consistently with the Doric ending of his name, -ίδας not –ίδης. I’ll comment on the trickiest part of this, οὐκ ἂν ἡγεῖτο μᾶλλον περιγενέσθαι ἢ ἄνευ προόψεώς τε αὐτῶν καὶ μὴ ἀπὸ τοῦ ὄντος καταφρονήσεως. ἡγεῖτο is “he thought”—it’s not passive. The αν (as well...
by mwh
Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:32 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Ask through where? "per quem locum?"
Replies: 8
Views: 226

Re: Ask through where? "per quem locum?"

Worse than pedantic, phonologically false. But I hope you’ll share more of your humanistic knowledge.
by mwh
Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:19 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: translation question
Replies: 6
Views: 245

Re: translation question

But we do have indirect discourse here, acc.&inf. dep. on demonstratum est in the relative clause. Cf. e.g. flumen iam demonstravi esse post nostra castra, “I’ve already shown that the river is/was behind our camp.”
by mwh
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:56 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Grouping the genitives in Longus 3.9.1
Replies: 12
Views: 700

Re: Grouping the genitives in Longus 3.9.1

Alternatively, someone might ignore the oral nature of the language and claim it is just a written language, as texts written in classical style during the Hellenistic and Byzantine periods may have been. By definition, however, a text written in the venacular - such as this one written in Koine Gr...
by mwh
Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:44 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens
Replies: 69
Views: 2931

Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Joel, I’m not surprised either, and I’m sorry if I sounded too harsh. Think of it as a good cop bad cop routine, with me as the bad cop. But how could you have thought that γέγηθά σ’ ὡς γέγηθ’ ὁρῶν meant “I rejoice in you as you I see you rejoicing " (my italics)?—but if that was your worst avoidabl...
by mwh
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:21 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens
Replies: 69
Views: 2931

Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Musgrave’s emendation is palmary (ϲωϲ misread at εωϲ, σε then added to provide the requisite object for ορων), and we should regard it as certain. Joel, it’s shocking that you wanted to take τεκνον as accusative, which is almost as bad as your previous ungrammatical interpretation (perhaps your wors...
by mwh
Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:03 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Datives singular as υι or υϊ as the υ became /y/ then /i/
Replies: 18
Views: 434

Re: Datives singular as υι or υϊ as the υ became /y/ then /i/

@jeidsath How you do like "to complicate matters." In my first post I didn’t see fit to muddy the already muddied waters by mentioning the tellingly few Homeric instances of monosyllabic –υι that you have found, for there the anomaly is to be accounted for in much the same way as many of the other m...
by mwh
Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:29 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Datives singular as υι or υϊ as the υ became /y/ then /i/
Replies: 18
Views: 434

Re: Datives singular as υι or υϊ as the υ became /y/ then /i/

Enough already. Even a semi-educated reader is expected to realize that terminal –υι would not be diphthongal. Adding a diaeresis sign (outside of an elementary grammar book) would imply that it sometimes is.
by mwh
Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:31 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Datives singular as υι or υϊ as the υ became /y/ then /i/
Replies: 18
Views: 434

Re: Datives singular as υι or υϊ as the υ became /y/ then /i/

Oh dear. This thread seems to have gone badly off track. The diphthong υι, as in υιος, which was pronounced in various ways at various times and in various places,, is not to be confused with –υι as a dat.sing. termination (as in πιτυι, gen. πιτυος), which was consistently disyllabic (both vowels sh...
by mwh
Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:18 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Datives singular as υι or υϊ as the υ became /y/ then /i/
Replies: 18
Views: 434

Re: Datives singular as υι or υϊ as the υ became /y/ then /i/

-υι in this declensiοn never contracts to a single syllable so far as I know, so πιτυι will be three shorts. (There's no need to mark the diaeresis.) –υες and-υας may of course contract to –υς (long υ). Cf. e.g. ὑς.
by mwh
Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:26 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens
Replies: 69
Views: 2931

Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

By Plutarch’s time μη is often used where earlier Greek would use ου, particularly in indirect speech. It’s just a shift in usage over time, nothing to do with emphasis. K-G II 511.3c, Mayser Gr.Gr. II ii 551, 562. πλοίου προσφερομένου etc. is gen.abs. The set-up comes first. “No surprise that the C...
by mwh
Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:59 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens
Replies: 69
Views: 2931

Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Well no I didn’t. I spend too much of my time correcting mistakes as it is, my own among them. I just happened to notice this at the top of your post. I’d be surprised if there were any more.
by mwh
Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:38 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Archilochus fr. 3
Replies: 5
Views: 228

Re: Archilochus fr. 3

I suppose it’s the Iliad’s mention of them as αιχμηται, “spearmen,” coupled with the fact that δουρικλυτος in this position is Iliadic, that saves the epithet from being intolerably jarring in this context of sword-fighting. Still, it offends delicate sensibilities like mine. But why I’m posting is ...
by mwh
Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:36 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens
Replies: 69
Views: 2931

Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

τῶν ἐκτὸς Ἑλλήνων -- "those outside the Greeks/the Greek nation", rather than "outside Greece", but this is strange to me at least because I would have thought that Greek colonies outside Greece would be considered Hellenes . Isn’t it “the outside Greeks" (gen. of οι εκτος Ελληνες), as distinct fro...
by mwh
Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:29 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Thucydides - good translation
Replies: 34
Views: 5782

Re: Thucydides - good translation

I don’t like to say so, but that pair of speeches is boilerplate rhetoric, and it leaves me cold.