Search found 2875 matches

by mwh
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:22 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Aeschylus Fragment Pl.Rep.383
Replies: 1
Views: 41

Re: Aeschylus Fragment Pl.Rep.383

It’s not known what play it’s from, though modern scholars have made various guesses. It’s fr.350 Radt, the standard edition of Aeschylus’ fragments, with commentary in Latin. Used to be fr.189; an old translation online at https://www.theoi.com/Text/AeschylusFragments3.html. Lloyd-Jones discusses i...
by mwh
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:17 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Herodotus, 3/98: "tuderuntque"?
Replies: 7
Views: 124

Re: Herodotus, 3/98: "tuderuntque"?

It’s really not that complicated. In extant classical literature the perfect of the simplex happens not to be found (except that the reduplicated form tetudi is once adduced in Varro’s linguistic work on Latin as analogous to pepugi), but as anphph indicates it’s well attested in the compounds, cont...
by mwh
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:14 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Translation of the Word ἤγγικεν at Jas 5:8 and 1Pe 4:7
Replies: 8
Views: 192

Re: Translation of the Word ἤγγικεν at Jas 5:8 and 1Pe 4:7

It can be translated “is at hand” (= “is nigh” = is imminent) because that’s what it means, not because it’s “equivalent to an action in the present tense.” Don’t try to explain Greek tense use until you’ve learnt Greek. As for παρουσια, your obsession, think about what I said: “if he ever arrives h...
by mwh
Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:32 pm
Forum: Medieval and Neo-Latin
Topic: Help needed: errors in "Fratris Felicis Fabri Evagatorium"
Replies: 9
Views: 102

Re: Help needed: errors in "Fratris Felicis Fabri Evagatorium"

So Aliu/Alliiu will be Venetian? St.Nick-on-the-Lido, perhaps?

Edit. You beat me to it. Is it still there? — Yes! San Nicolò al Lido. It's famous.
by mwh
Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:52 pm
Forum: Medieval and Neo-Latin
Topic: Help needed: errors in "Fratris Felicis Fabri Evagatorium"
Replies: 9
Views: 102

Re: Help needed: errors in "Fratris Felicis Fabri Evagatorium"

In the first passage, in liberis Testimonialibus meis should surely be not libris but literis or litteris. Glancing through the rest I’d say that most of your proposed corrections are obviously right. Additionally: p.65 spepsaret: spectare?? p.239 inmorierati: inmoderati? p.292 gnoscoa: gnosco or ag...
by mwh
Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:33 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Herodotus, 3/98: "tuderuntque"?
Replies: 7
Views: 124

Re: Herodotus, 3/98: "tuderuntque"?

Surely tuderunt is correct, used as the perfect (unreduplicated). It's the perfect that's called for, so present-stem *tunderunt is out of the question, while tuderunt is morphologically unexceptionable. Cf. e.g. fundo, fudi.
by mwh
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:47 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Participles and middle/passive
Replies: 5
Views: 131

Re: Participles and middle/passive

Here are those participles more literally translated and with the superfluous bits cut out: ἐλθόντων μὲν γὰρ Περσῶν ὡς ἀφανιούντων τὰς Ἀθήνας, ὑποστῆναι Ἀθηναῖοι τολμήσαντες ἐνίκησαν αὐτούς. καὶ εὐξάμενοι τῇ Ἀρτέμιδι … “The Persians having come” (gen.absol., aorist participle) “as being about to wip...
by mwh
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:35 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ἁσμένως
Replies: 2
Views: 59

Re: ἁσμένως

Yes it’s because ασμενος was taken (rightly or wrongly) to be cognate with ἡδομαι. It’s a very trivial matter. A less trivial question is whether the adverb has displaced the adjective. I have little doubt that it has. Attic often uses adjectives where later Greek uses adverbs. In Thucydides, for ex...
by mwh
Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:12 pm
Forum: Composition Board
Topic: Elegiac couplets
Replies: 11
Views: 344

Re: Elegiac couplets

The hexameter is excellent, but cancel the commas. The pentameter is not good. The worst of it is eius, with bad stress and bad meter and anyway it’s too prosaic a word for this kind of verse. Did you not think of ending the first half with fulgida lux (preceded by e.g. et nunc, or iam iam)? The sec...
by mwh
Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:55 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Participles and middle/passive
Replies: 5
Views: 131

Re: Participles and middle/passive

Other textbooks might offer more help. And here's what I suggest. Take any passage in Xenophon, look for the participles in it (if you're able to recognize them), and observe how they’re used. Points of difficulty can be dealt with here. Most participles don’t have the article; watch out for those t...
by mwh
Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:48 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Translation of the Word ἤγγικεν at Jas 5:8 and 1Pe 4:7
Replies: 8
Views: 192

Re: Translation of the Word ἤγγικεν at Jas 5:8 and 1Pe 4:7

That’s as may be, but the archaism persists to the present day in this particular phrase, see the Google images for “the end is nigh” (some terrific images there). It’s become entrenched, even if often in a Monty Pythonesque kind of way. The online Oxford dictionary gives “The end is nigh!” as its o...
by mwh
Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:13 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Translation of the Word ἤγγικεν at Jas 5:8 and 1Pe 4:7
Replies: 8
Views: 192

Re: Translation of the Word ἤγγικεν at Jas 5:8 and 1Pe 4:7

“The end is nigh” endures as the canonical translation (see Google images), and is forever topical (currently applied to Brexit and to the Trump presidency). To quote a Nobel prize winner, “Oh, Mama, can this really be the end?” Given the US’s withdrawal from the Paris agreement on climate change, I...
by mwh
Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:29 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Some questions for Demosthenes, Against Aristogiton 1.
Replies: 23
Views: 538

Re: Some questions for Demosthenes, Against Aristogiton 1.

With reference to your parable: When a relentlessly demanding diner shows no appreciation of any of the gourmet meals he is served, and only asks for more, it’s understandable if the generous cook who took such painstaking care over their preparation becomes a little exasperated with him. In section...
by mwh
Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:55 pm
Forum: Latin Poetry
Topic: Latin translation by T.S.Evans of an English poem
Replies: 9
Views: 1277

Re: Latin translation by T.S.Evans of an English poem

As you can see, I implored Anthony to “please correct the absurd heading” and when he replied as he did (above) I let it go, thinking everyone could have a good laugh. But apparently no-one even noticed.

I won't take you up on Prufrock (though I'm tempted) and I hope no-one else will either.
by mwh
Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:50 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plato Rep. 361e middle for passive futures
Replies: 3
Views: 110

Re: Plato Rep. 361e middle for passive futures

More directly, Smyth 1737-38, making a semantic distinction that doesn't always (or often) apply, certainly not in verse.
by mwh
Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:48 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Some questions for Demosthenes, Against Aristogiton 1.
Replies: 23
Views: 538

Re: Some questions for Demosthenes, Against Aristogiton 1.

I have no time to deal with these, but I’ll note that your last question, as is all too often the way with your questions, has a false premise. The adjectives are not accusative but nominative. And on the οσῳ … question, see the pinned Conditionals thread, esp. “this system applies not only to if-cl...
by mwh
Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:15 am
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Questions on the "Greek Anthology"(espec. Loeb and "others?")
Replies: 5
Views: 144

Re: Questions on the "Greek Anthology"(espec. Loeb and "others?")

Paton’s old Loeb may be your best bet. For scholarly commentary you should use Gow&Page’s The Greek Anthology (2 vols.), supplemented by their Garland of Philip. These cover the Anthology’s older strata, down to about 50 CE. Vol.1 gives the text and translation (organized differently from the transm...
by mwh
Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:59 am
Forum: Composition Board
Topic: Elegiac couplets
Replies: 11
Views: 344

Re: Elegiac couplets

The take-away on this particular point: You should not have used perula to mean a pearl. See the entry in the Oxford Latin Dictionary, which it looks as if you should make more use of. More substantively, your idiosyncratic imagery (e.g. lumina blanda pluunt, which admittedly sounds lovely) is fuzzi...
by mwh
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:55 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: 'nullus' in Greek
Replies: 3
Views: 159

Re: 'nullus' in Greek

In translating you shouldn’t be looking for word-by-word equivalents but for something that renders the sense as exactly as possible. Here you’d simply use a negative. E.g. εν ταυτη γε τη οικια ουχ ευρεθησεται οπλα. That corresponds well. You could strengthen the negative by using ουδαμως (ουχ ευρεθ...
by mwh
Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:38 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: A sentence from Athenaze
Replies: 12
Views: 646

Re: A sentence from Athenaze

For me it’s less a matter of analyzing ωστε as a word than of recognizing its syntactically subordinating function in actual use, even when the leading verb is without a correlative ουτως or τοσουτον or the like. That other post seems fine to me. Of course there’s no way of telling whether αν ειναι ...
by mwh
Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:37 pm
Forum: Composition Board
Topic: Elegiac couplets
Replies: 11
Views: 344

Re: Elegiac couplets

A very promising attempt. First line is nice, but supra has heavy first syllable (it’s really supera, so the lengthening is compensatory). Try super? 2nd is hard to understand. And what’s perula? If a diminutive of pera (a loanword from Gk. πηρα) it doesn’t scan and with magna is kinda contradictory...
by mwh
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:37 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Another Mistake by a German Professor?
Replies: 5
Views: 216

Re: Another Mistake by a German Professor?

And that’s not all. συμβέβηκεν ἄν?! ἐνδεδυμένοι ἦεν?! Not even on textkit have I seen such atrocious Greek.

The Greek equivalent of https://www.exclassics.com/espoke/espk6.htm?
by mwh
Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:41 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὁσάκις ἂν
Replies: 30
Views: 532

Re: ὁσάκις ἂν

Yes. Case in point: it wasn’t till 1802 that Porson’s law was discovered! Before that scholars had been happily perpetrating multitudes of verses a single one of which would have had an ancient Greek audience on its feet hissing and yelling and hurling things.
by mwh
Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:36 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: A sentence from Athenaze
Replies: 12
Views: 646

Re: A sentence from Athenaze

Thanks for conceding, Hylander. It’s true that editors do sometimes start a new sentence with ωστε + indicative, even if I don’t think they should.
And of course it doesn’t have to be indicative. E.g. Soph.El.333 ὥστ’ αν … δηλωσαιμ’ αν οἷ’ αυτοις φρονῶ.
by mwh
Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:20 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὁσάκις ἂν
Replies: 30
Views: 532

Re: ὁσάκις ἂν

To sum up (again). Opt.+αν here is highly anomalous. I can find no parallel to it, or nothing closer than the quote I gave from Smyth 2406. It betrays an inadequate grasp of ancient Greek. bedwere proposes to normalize it by changing the optative to the subjunctive. That’s what it ought to have been...
by mwh
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:58 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὁσάκις ἂν
Replies: 30
Views: 532

Re: ὁσάκις ἂν

msw - Is it a "slip"? If this is addressed to me: Yes it is, though it may not have been recognized as such in 1731, any more than it was by you and Aetos in 2018. Even Germans have been known to make mistakes. To sum up. Opt.+αν here is highly anomalous. I can find no parallel to it, or nothing cl...
by mwh
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:41 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὁσάκις ἂν
Replies: 30
Views: 532

Re: ὁσάκις ἂν

As I suggested, I think the only way one could possibly make a case for opt.+αν here is by comparing επιχειρεῖ, ἡνικ’ αν ημεις μη δυναιμεθα … (Smyth 2406), and that is not really comparable. So it’s untenable (illegal, invalid, incorrect, wrong, ...). Plain opt. would be fine if εκκορουμεν were a hi...
by mwh
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:32 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: A sentence from Athenaze
Replies: 12
Views: 646

Re: A sentence from Athenaze

My own disagreement with Hylander would be with his denying that ωστε+indic. is a subordinate clause. But I don’t want to argue the point.
by mwh
Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:57 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: ἀθανασία
Replies: 27
Views: 712

Re: ἀθανασία

Time to remove this undying (but not uncorrupted) thread from the Learning Greek forum? It’s quite enough to have it here.

Or start a new topic on the immortality of the nightingale?
by mwh
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:47 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὁσάκις ἂν
Replies: 30
Views: 532

Re: ὁσάκις ἂν

I'm with Hylander on this. As I put it more widely in the pinned Conditionals thread, “A main clause is not affected at all by whether or not there’s an if-clause with it.” As for bedwere’s original query, the subjunctive is certainly what you’d expect (and that’s what you’d naturally use to transla...
by mwh
Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:16 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Septuaginta Reader's Edition
Replies: 17
Views: 1650

Re: Septuaginta Reader's Edition

Sorry, only just spotted this. I only meant that if you want to improve your Greek, reading the LXX is one of the worst ways to go about it, because its language is tainted to various degrees by the syntax and forms of expression of the Hebrew that it aims to translate. But I expect you know that, a...
by mwh
Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:06 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Philoctetes, questions.
Replies: 9
Views: 323

Re: Philoctetes, questions.

Just to add a little. Ἀχιλλέως παῖ Νεοπτόλεμε, τὸν Μηλιᾶ Νεο- must have been slurred to produce a long vowel, probably something like νου-, cf. e.g. νουμηνία, or φιλεοντα>φιλουντα. Neoptolemus is not an easy name to fit into iambics! and Sophocles does it only when it’s absolutely necessary—here and...
by mwh
Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:01 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens
Replies: 69
Views: 3108

Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

You don’t need Latin for Brasidas and Strepsiades. And actually, you can always just transliterate the Greek. Kleon not Cleon, etc. etc. That’s become rather fashionable in fact. So it’s even ok to write Thoukudides, though with familiar names it’s still customary to use the familiar latinized forms...
by mwh
Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:50 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens
Replies: 69
Views: 3108

Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

First Brasidus (where I actually mentioned –ιδης), now Strepsiadus. Joel, you can’t realize how cringemaking these are. I enjoyed dikaiopolis’ What does it signify? note, once I’d seen Joel’s translation. Yes, τί δῆτα moves straight on to Streps’s next Socratic-type question. First he posed the rain...
by mwh
Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:42 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: What is the joke? (Aelianus De Natura Animalium)
Replies: 4
Views: 235

Re: What is the joke? (Aelianus De Natura Animalium)

Hylander: Hor.Od.3.16 Inclusam Danaen … | si non Acrisium …!
by mwh
Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:02 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens
Replies: 69
Views: 3108

Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Eileithuia is the goddess of childbirth, and that's all that τοκος means here, there's no play on words. A οσιον χωριον is (despite appearances) a non-sacred place, one where it's OK to give birth, as distinct from a ιερον place such as a sanctuary, where it's not. It's a quote from the Lysistrata.
by mwh
Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:21 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Ask through where? "per quem locum?"
Replies: 8
Views: 258

Re: Ask through where? "per quem locum?"

Interesting, Miguel, thanks. I like the way Italian does it myself—none of this “etymological” nonsense, just spell it as it sounds and say it as it’s spelled. Impossible in English of course, and would be barbaric in French (thanks to the Académie francaise?) though I gather there have been a few (...
by mwh
Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:05 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: What is the joke? (Aelianus De Natura Animalium)
Replies: 4
Views: 235

Re: What is the joke? (Aelianus De Natura Animalium)

It’s certainly not much of a joke. I guess he’s just excusing his flippancy in pointing out the analogy with the famous myth.

Gilgamesh as Perseus. Hmm…
by mwh
Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:44 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens
Replies: 69
Views: 3108

Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Brasidas, not Brasidus. He’s a Spartan, consistently with the Doric ending of his name, -ίδας not –ίδης. I’ll comment on the trickiest part of this, οὐκ ἂν ἡγεῖτο μᾶλλον περιγενέσθαι ἢ ἄνευ προόψεώς τε αὐτῶν καὶ μὴ ἀπὸ τοῦ ὄντος καταφρονήσεως. ἡγεῖτο is “he thought”—it’s not passive. The αν (as well...
by mwh
Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:32 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Ask through where? "per quem locum?"
Replies: 8
Views: 258

Re: Ask through where? "per quem locum?"

Worse than pedantic, phonologically false. But I hope you’ll share more of your humanistic knowledge.