Search found 3211 matches

by mwh
Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:49 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: more style questions: cum preposition, tan bene or ita
Replies: 1
Views: 103

Re: more style questions: cum preposition, tan bene or ita

1. amicus cum Romanis is “a friend along with the Romans”—wrong meaning. amicus Romanis might do, though, but wouldn’t necessarily be reciprocal.
2. tam bene is fine (“in such a good way”), though could be a bit overdone. (hac typo for hoc)
by mwh
Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:10 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 20, Part III. #11
Replies: 17
Views: 411

Re: Unit 20, Part III. #11

And I likewise endorse and underline Hylander’s comment. It can sometimes be helpful to give other examples, but not misguided and misleading ones, as Joel’s were. It was his unfortunate post that precipitated my own (which crossed with Hylander’s), in hopes of staving off misunderstanding. I then f...
by mwh
Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:01 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 20, Part III. #11
Replies: 17
Views: 411

Re: Unit 20, Part III. #11

Joel’s rather unnatural made-up sentence, οἰ σύμμαχοι εἰς τὴν τῶν ᾿Αθηναίων χώραν ἦλθον καὶ αὐτοὶ ἐνόσησαν, could only mean “The allies came into the land of the Athenians and fell sick themselves.” καὶ there would have to mean "and", coordinating the two verbs, and there could be no change of subje...
by mwh
Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:43 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 20, a Word from Clearchus
Replies: 7
Views: 246

Re: Unit 20, a Word from Clearchus

And ἐθέλετε is present tense.

οὐκ ἐθέλετε means “you refuse.”
by mwh
Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:51 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: help with long passages in colebourne
Replies: 2
Views: 112

Re: help with long passages in colebourne

1. abest calls for a Roma, using the same preposition.
2. quo ties it to what precedes, while hoc disconnects. (You’d probably want to use a connective with hoc.)
3. They’re not quite synonyms but close. It's not really a matter of relative age. A better dictionary would help.
by mwh
Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:49 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: More help with long passages in colebourne
Replies: 3
Views: 182

Re: help with long passages in colebourne

1. Yes this is normal idiom, and more exact than English. Rome the city doesn’t possess an army; the Romans do. A city can be built, destroyed, etc., but only people can be ruled (taxed, led into war, etc.). A city is an urban environment, it doesn't have a king. 2. With apud, Theseus is the recipie...
by mwh
Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:01 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26
Replies: 15
Views: 628

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26

I don’t know what the Loeb editor was doing. I was thinking more of those 19th-cent. scholars (Wackernagel among others) who investigated the matter. Monro’s praefatio to the OCT Iliad is pretty good. And if West includes this in the orthographica section of his Iliad, he’ll be the one to follow. Al...
by mwh
Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:56 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: iota subscript
Replies: 10
Views: 307

Re: iota subscript

“somewhat doubtful of fulfilment,” says Sidney Allen, and he says a mouthful. For most of us it’s pointless to try. I ignore iota subscript in reading, just as everybody did in post-classical times, whether for Homer or for anything else. (People in NT circles will discuss pronunciation endlessly, e...
by mwh
Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:07 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Weird Accents in Blackie's Greek Primer
Replies: 6
Views: 281

Re: Weird Accents in Blackie's Greek Primer

δοκεῖν γὰρ εἰδέναι ἐστὶν ἃ οὐκ οἶδεν. You don’t have to be a native speaker to find the meaning clear as a bell; you shouldn't have to go back and re-read it. And you should not find it painful. (And to delete ἐστὶν would be ruinous. There are times when ἐστὶ is dispensable, and times when it’s not....
by mwh
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:48 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: "You Will Die" Accent
Replies: 2
Views: 122

Re: "You Will Die" Accent

You lost an alpha in there. You forgot it’s not -θν- but -θαν- in the future (and also the aorist). So you should end up with ἀποθανῆ (with iota subscript; that’s not lost when -έῃ is contracted). An alternative spelling, actually more common, is ἀποθανει, again with circumflex. 2 sing. is a bear in...
by mwh
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:01 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Weird Accents in Blackie's Greek Primer
Replies: 6
Views: 281

Re: Weird Accents in Blackie's Greek Primer

I'd say you're right, but I don’t understand why people get so exercised over this sort of thing. Surely we have better things to do than police accentuation of εστι. As I said elsewhere: Rules for εστι are all over the map, and largely arbitrary. Smyth, whom I believe Dickey aims to follow, gives a...
by mwh
Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:33 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26
Replies: 15
Views: 628

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26

Alpha - omega is an alphabetical system rather than a numerical one, and alpha-omega has symbolic significance,, advertising Homer's all-comprehensiveness (cf. “I am the alpha and the omega,” or modern use of A-Z). Such symbolism is distinctly unAlexandrian. That’s why I said “pre-Alexandrian” (and ...
by mwh
Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:40 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Museo Archeologico Nazionale Firenze
Replies: 9
Views: 571

Re: Museo Archeologico Nazionale Firenze

You absolutely must go to Urbino (where I lived for a year) and the Palazzo Ducale, with the Flagellazione.
by mwh
Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:46 pm
Forum: Latin Poetry
Topic: Propertius 1.1
Replies: 6
Views: 348

Re: Propertius 1.1

Aetos got in ahead of me, and I won’t tread on his toes. I’ll just add that Thessalian witches notoriously had the ability to draw down the moon with their magic spells. Propertius draws directly on a poem by Theocritus. I envy you finding Propertius “relatively simple” to read. Let me assure you he...
by mwh
Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:36 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26
Replies: 15
Views: 628

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26

Yes the book divisions are pretty arbitrary. Whoever did them (post-Homeric, but pre-Alexandrian) set out to split each poem into parts that could be labeled alpha through omega. They’re best ignored (except for reference purposes of course).
by mwh
Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:19 am
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Museo Archeologico Nazionale Firenze
Replies: 9
Views: 571

Re: Museo Archeologico Nazionale Firenze

Be sure to see the Piaggio machine, used to unroll the Herculaneum papyri. I'll pm you a piece of mine on the Francois vase. Florence wowed me from the moment I saw it, and it is still my favourite city in the world. The crowds will still be bad but a bit less so at the end of the month. I shall not...
by mwh
Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:43 pm
Forum: Medieval and Neo-Latin
Topic: Liber XXIV philosophorum
Replies: 5
Views: 1076

Re: Liber XXIV philosophorum

Thanks Andriko, that’s very interesting, and perhaps it would be helpful to mosburgo, but he seems to have dropped out.
by mwh
Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:35 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: δέ
Replies: 7
Views: 368

Re: δέ

I should explain that the quote from me at the head of this thread was what I wrote in response to a beginner’s asking how to translate δέ (a question no-one had answered for him). It is not what I would say about the function of δέ. I’m not much inclined to participate in a thread inaugurated by so...
by mwh
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:35 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 18 Reading
Replies: 17
Views: 508

Re: Unit 18 Reading

δέ can be translated by “and” or by “but” or (often best) by nothing at all, according to the context. Often it’s just a nondescript sentence connective, as in this passage.
by mwh
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:33 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]
Replies: 48
Views: 1587

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Do a Textkit search for “O Brother Where Art Thou” and you’ll find a fun thread.
(Sorry, I’ve forgotten how to do thread links.)
by mwh
Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:15 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ετρεψα or ετραπον
Replies: 15
Views: 505

Re: ετρεψα or ετραπον

Thanks Joel. It’s clear from the run of the sentence alone (not to mention Greek usage!) that “poetic and transitive” was meant, contrasting with Attic’s intransitive use of the middle (in prose as well as verse). And a look at LSJ would confirm that ἔτραπον is routinely transitive, as one would exp...
by mwh
Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:36 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ετρεψα or ετραπον
Replies: 15
Views: 505

Re: ετρεψα or ετραπον

Does Mastronarde really say that the strong aorist active ἔτραπον is intransitive in sense? That’s wrong. It’s routinely transitive. I guess that’s what he meant to say. (LSJ’s Pindar reference fastened on by Barry is not “Od.” but “O.”, the Olympians, and there’s nothing remarkable about it.) Coul...
by mwh
Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:49 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ετρεψα or ετραπον
Replies: 15
Views: 505

Re: ετρεψα or ετραπον

Does Mastronarde really say that the strong aorist active ἔτραπον is intransitive in sense? That’s wrong. It’s routinely transitive. I guess that’s what he meant to say.

(LSJ’s Pindar reference fastened on by Barry is not “Od.” but “O.”, the Olympians, and there’s nothing remarkable about it.)
by mwh
Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:45 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Articular Infinitive
Replies: 3
Views: 195

Re: Articular Infinitive

Anything coming between τὸ and the infinitive belongs with the infinitive, rather than with anything else in the sentence. That might be nothing, as in “Being afraid (helps no-one)”, “τὸ φοβεῖσθαι (ouk wfelei oudena)”, or it might be dozens of words. Here “not even the children” goes with φοβεῖσθαι,...
by mwh
Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:20 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ετρεψα or ετραπον
Replies: 15
Views: 505

Re: ετρεψα or ετραπον

That's right. They differ in usage.
by mwh
Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:15 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Future of σπένδω?
Replies: 26
Views: 699

Re: Future of σπένδω?

I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear in my post. I postulate (tentatively, I’m no expert) that the *σπενδσω > *σπενσω > σπεισω morphological development was phonologically immediate, instantaneous, unmediated, spontaneous. Was -νδσ- or even word-internal -νσ- ever a real Greek sound?
by mwh
Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:04 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Future of σπένδω?
Replies: 26
Views: 699

Re: Future of σπένδω?

It seems I’ve been overtaken by this latest flurry of posts. To amplify Hylander on “euphony.” We can say that the (unconscious) application of phonological rules results in euphony (for a Greek). *σπενδσω is unsayable for a Greek.* But would a Greek find σπεισω any more euphonious than *σπεσω? No, ...
by mwh
Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:39 am
Forum: Composition Board
Topic: Ludus cantionum
Replies: 7
Views: 279

Re: Ludus cantionum

Bene.
Unus nostrum errare hau potest.
by mwh
Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:55 pm
Forum: Composition Board
Topic: Ludus cantionum
Replies: 7
Views: 279

Re: Ludus cantionum

bedwere, si tuum “Lucis umbra lunaris” non “Moonlight Shadow” Michaelis Veteriscampi est, at oportet esse. suspicor tamen id non esse quod in mente habes.

non vis corrigere Latinum Hortensianum (“et sinite sodales quam cantionem suspicare”), quod hau Latinumpst?
by mwh
Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:24 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Query on Theognis
Replies: 9
Views: 424

Re: Query on Theognis

You’ve misconstrued the thrust of these lines, which work almost like an epigram. Most of it has nothing at all to do with a party situation. That comes in only in the final sentence. Of course everyone would like to get away from someone who chatters (or twitters) incessantly, but at a symposium th...
by mwh
Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:25 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Query on Theognis
Replies: 9
Views: 424

Re: Query on Theognis

Not fine. ἀναγκη is a force that gives you no choice. At a symposium you’re stuck with whoever your neighbor happens to be. You’re forced (by symposium etiquette) to “mix” with him. You may find it torturous, but the point is you have no say in the matter. If you fall off a cliff you will necessaril...
by mwh
Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:12 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]
Replies: 48
Views: 1587

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

ἥρως at 6.303: I haven’t investigated but if the paradosis is ἥρως I guess epic had traditionally used ἥρως as nom. and/or voc. (as at 4.423), and here in Od.6 the same form was pushed into ad hoc service as genitive. I’d have expected ἥρωος (with internal correption) but apparently the force of tra...
by mwh
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:48 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Query on Theognis
Replies: 9
Views: 424

Re: Query on Theognis

No Joel the Loeb has it right. (ἀναγκαίη is adjective. "Only under compulsion is there [social] intercourse with such a man at a symposium.")
by mwh
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:10 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Query on Theognis
Replies: 9
Views: 424

Re: Query on Theognis

Yes you miscontrued οἷσι παρῇ (and your own ἐν οἶσι παρῆν), which doesn’t mean “to those present”—that would be toisi parousi (pelei)—but “ to those he’s with ”, a portmanteau expression, very easy with the dative, lit. “(to those) to whom he’s present.” Prose would add an αν to παρῇ. As to your own...
by mwh
Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:52 am
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Psalm 92: 3-4 LXX
Replies: 20
Views: 1049

Re: Psalm 92: 3-4 LXX

Barry, What is your point? And why do you add “with no prior exposure to the LXX”? No-one’s disputing that readers (or auditors) would have found the LXX obscure in places. They dealt with it. The Greek was all a bit weird, after all, but as I said, ”It was understood (or not) without the Hebrew.”
by mwh
Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:52 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader
Replies: 45
Views: 1706

Re: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader

Seneca, You say part of my earlier post was not the point you wanted to make. Well, why should it be? This is not a discussion with you alone. (As to womb vs. vagina, obviously she’s thinking of having given birth to her husband/son (+sibs) rather than the incestuous sexual act itself that resulted ...
by mwh
Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:07 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader
Replies: 45
Views: 1706

Re: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader

Well of course Seneca is right, but he seems to be only confirming Bart’s point. (And I’d say not only that some interpretations are more interesting than others but that some are better than others. But that would take us back to square one, which is where we always seem to end up.) I think Barry’s...
by mwh
Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:05 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Imperfect Tense Third Person Active?
Replies: 4
Views: 270

Re: Imperfect Tense Third Person Active?

You have to add the appropriate theme vowel—omicron or epsilon—before the personal endings, as you can see from the chart. Omicron in 1sing&pl and 3pl, epsilon in 2sing&pl and 3sing. In the impf, 3sing active has no personal ending following the epsilon theme vowel, but it does have an optional nu. ...
by mwh
Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:38 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: οἴομαι?
Replies: 1
Views: 149

Re: οἴομαι?

You should have gotten ῳεσο not ῳοσο for 2nd person.

The morphological/historical process is ᾤεσο > ᾤεο > ᾤου. The accent stays as far back as it can go.
by mwh
Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:39 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Unit 15, Part IV, #3
Replies: 12
Views: 426

Re: Unit 15, Part IV, #3

"This year is the beginning of a long and difficult war.” “This year” is the subject, “(is) the beginning” is the predicate. You may not have covered this yet, but in Greek predicates normally go without the article. So you'd do better to cancel ἡ. Ah. Is that what they call a predicate nominative?...