Search found 385 matches

by Bart
Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:14 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader
Replies: 45
Views: 1619

Re: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader

seneca2008 wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:59 am
Again I fear I am not being very persuasive.
Oh, you're doing fine :)
Now, why should you want to persuade me to your interests and preferences by the way? Is it because you think -malgré toi- they are right? Anyway, thanks for the discussion, seneca.
by Bart
Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:05 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader
Replies: 45
Views: 1619

Re: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader

Seneca, I do appreciate you took the time to answer my questions. No doubt you make valid points about the assumptions we bring to a text and the necessary subjectivity of our interpretations. The view from nowhere, to put it with Thomas Nagel, is not accessible to us. However I see no reason why th...
by Bart
Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:59 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 71
Views: 3257

Re: Vacation reading

Nice (or not so nice for you at that moment). You had a hypnagogic or hypnopompic hallucination, as you no doubt know. It's not that uncommon.
by Bart
Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:50 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader
Replies: 45
Views: 1619

Re: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader

I think real argument is possible because we live at the same time and I can understand and have sympathy with your point of view. Do I infer correctly from this that real argument with someone from a different era wouldn't be possible? Your writing (not only here) does seem to suggest that you thi...
by Bart
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:12 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader
Replies: 45
Views: 1619

Re: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader

Seneca, your skepticism about the quest for the “original meaning” of a text is no doubt warranted. In my view however you risk going off the rails in the other direction. That we’re limited by our point of view is obvious. However, you sometimes come across (when writing things like ‘trapped in our...
by Bart
Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:34 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader
Replies: 45
Views: 1619

Re: The Blind Poet and the Blind Reader

Hi seneca, my thoughts. Whilst a love for the subject is perhaps something that we can all endorse, it is no substitute for rigorous argument and analysis. Keller's preference for the Iliad over the Aeneid reflects more a 19th century prejudice than “a responsive heart”. In fact a sensitive reader w...
by Bart
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:25 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Can anyone recommend a good old sword-and-sandal movie?
Replies: 13
Views: 1930

Re: Can anyone recommend a good old sword-and-sandal movie?

I would forget about movies; just let them read the first 24 volumes of Asterix and Obelix (the less said about the later volumes by Uderzo alone the better) and when they're done with them, they can start again with volume 1. A perfect introduction into a classical education!
by Bart
Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:08 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 3.53 and the sematics of διδαχθεῖσα
Replies: 12
Views: 1990

Re: Herodotus 3.53 and the sematics of διδαχθεῖσα

Thanks! It's a perfect miniature tragedy this story of Periander and his son. Some random remarks/ thoughts: -Herdotus never tells us what exactly happened to Melissa. Twice the term συμφορὴ is used, which sounds somehow both euphemistic and ominous at the same time. Periander refers to it once: εἰ ...
by Bart
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:28 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Ανάγκη
Replies: 34
Views: 2768

Re: Ανάγκη

Spontaneous combustion? Bored moderators?
by Bart
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:58 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 3.53 and the sematics of διδαχθεῖσα
Replies: 12
Views: 1990

Re: Herodotus 3.53 and the sematics of διδαχθεῖσα

Reviving this old thread while mulling over the Periander/ Lycophron story: (Is anything known of this daughter, by the way, or is she just an ad hoc invention to provide a plausible intercessor for P’s final appeal to his alienated son? ω παι seems a bit of a giveaway : it comes oddly from a sister...
by Bart
Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:33 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Replies: 25
Views: 1960

Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5

That’s correct.
by Bart
Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:45 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Replies: 25
Views: 1960

Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5

Thanks y'all, I agree that there is probably no difference. My question was in fact based on the fact that a Dutch commentator (Van Groningen) hints at a difference in likelihood of the two options. However I only have his commentary, not the text he is using, so maybe his comments reflect the same ...
by Bart
Thu May 30, 2019 7:06 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Replies: 25
Views: 1960

Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5

Thanks for giving this your thoughts.

Concerning Abicht: I think you mentioned him before, Paul, but I somehow forgot. How foolish of me, for his commentary seems exactly the kind of thing I've been looking for.
by Bart
Wed May 29, 2019 6:41 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Replies: 25
Views: 1960

Herdotus, III, 36,5

I have a question about he following sentence. Cambyses, growing more and more insane, tries to kill Croesus, who narrowly escapes. Then Herodotus writes: οἱ δὲ θεράποντες ἐπιστάμενοι τὸν τρόπον αὐτοῦ κατακρύπτουσι τὸν Κροῖσον ἐπὶ τῷδε τῷ λόγῳ ὥστε, εἰ μὲν μεταμελήσῃ τῷ Καμβύσῃ καὶ ἐπιζητέῃ τὸν Κροῖ...
by Bart
Mon May 27, 2019 2:44 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right
Replies: 18
Views: 2909

Re: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right

Well, why not? Everything is possible in a post-truth world.
by Bart
Mon May 27, 2019 11:44 am
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right
Replies: 18
Views: 2909

Re: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right

Paul, your reading of the passage seems plausible to me, more so in fact than that of Asheri and others. Famines and rickets would have been common in those days, and not only for Persians. But an entire army consisting of men so severely affected by osteoporosis that their bones could be this easil...
by Bart
Sun May 26, 2019 7:29 am
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right
Replies: 18
Views: 2909

Re: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right

This discussion came back into my mind while rereading book III of the Histories and coming upon this passage. Hist. 3,12,1: θῶμα δὲ μέγα εἶδον πυθόμενος παρὰ τῶν ἐπιχωρίων: τῶν γὰρ ὀστέων περικεχυμένων χωρὶς ἑκατέρων τῶν ἐν τῇ μάχῃ ταύτῃ πεσόντων (χωρὶς μὲν γὰρ τῶν Περσέων ἔκειτο τὰ ὀστέα, ὡς ἐχωρί...
by Bart
Sat May 11, 2019 5:13 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: After Mastronarde
Replies: 15
Views: 2112

Re: After Mastronarde

Plato & Homer. You might start with: https://www.amazon.com/Plato-Apology-Greek-English/dp/0865163480/ref=sr_1_fkmrnull_1?keywords=apology+plato+helm&qid=1557594517&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmrnull https://www.amazon.com/Greek-Prose-Reading-Course-Post-beginners/dp/B00BUFPNLA/ref=sr_1_fkmrnull_2?keywords=c...
by Bart
Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:14 am
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Papyrology mystery
Replies: 6
Views: 1104

Re: Papyrology mystery

I think you hit the jackpot, Joel! This seems to be a priceless artifact recording the travels of a Batavian clansman to the south in the latter part of the 20th century. Apperently he swam a lot (typical Batavian behaviour), played next to a waterfall (this is open to interpretation) and visited so...
by Bart
Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:30 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right
Replies: 18
Views: 2909

Re: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right

Thanks for the links - I read the first one, not knowing Dutch. ;) Shame on you :) Although he does give an impression to have witnessed many things himself, he is often quite ambiguous, and I don't think he ever explicitly claims to have visited Babylon. No, he doesn't, but he strongly hints at it...
by Bart
Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:49 am
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right
Replies: 18
Views: 2909

Re: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right

It's not only the wall that Herodotus is wrong about. -he states Babylon has a hundred gates, in reality there were only eight. The number 100 alone hints at some kind of literary trope. The names of the gates he gives do not conform to the names known from cuneiform sources. -he seems completely un...
by Bart
Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:34 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Two More Unit 10 Questions
Replies: 15
Views: 1916

Re: Two More Unit 10 Questions

Personally I like Bornemann's Griechische Grammatik; but it's in German of course.

mwh wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:40 pm
—And now there’s the rival Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek too, more linguistically oriented and very Dutch, but comprehensive and up-to-date.

What do you mean by 'very Dutch'? Just curious.
by Bart
Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:26 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right
Replies: 18
Views: 2909

Re: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right

So the same Herodotus who is apparently able to give a detailed description of the building plan of an Egyptian river boat, misrepresents the measures of a city wall by a factor of 10? It doesn't seem convincing. I don't necessarily think he's lying about the wall, some boastful Babylionian probably...
by Bart
Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:54 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right
Replies: 18
Views: 2909

Re: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right

As for Herodotus, the more I read him, the more confident I feel that those scholars who claim that he was a liar are wrong. His memory may play tricks on him, he may have made wrong inferences from his data, his informants may have been misguided etc., but I don't he think he ever deceives intenti...
by Bart
Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:40 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Lysis 219e and Hemlock
Replies: 36
Views: 19141

Re: Lysis 219e and Hemlock

Yes, it's pathetic. The body not decomposing after death (incorruptibility is the official term I think) is a sign of sainthood in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church. Christ's body didn't decompose after all according to official dogma. I don't know if this (i.e. the body not decaying) w...
by Bart
Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:24 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Lysis 219e and Hemlock
Replies: 36
Views: 19141

Re: Lysis 219e and Hemlock

Guillain-Barré-syndrome was apparently a major cause of death for ancient Greek celebrities, killing not only Socrates but also Alexander the Great: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 115006.htm
by Bart
Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:12 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Philoctetes, questions.
Replies: 9
Views: 1279

Re: Philoctetes, questions.

First chorus: a very active chorus so to say, almost another dramatis persona and used with great effect to prepare the audience for the first appearance of Philoctetes. I found Neoptolemus' reply in lines 191-200 interesting. οὐδὲν τούτων θαυμαστὸν ἐμοί: θεῖα γάρ, εἴπερ κἀγώ τι φρονῶ, καὶ τὰ παθήμα...
by Bart
Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:50 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Philoctetes, questions.
Replies: 9
Views: 1279

Re: Philoctetes, questions.

Thanks for taking the time to spell this out so lucidly.
by Bart
Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:36 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Philoctetes, questions.
Replies: 9
Views: 1279

Re: Philoctetes, questions.

Two questions about meter: -line 135: τί χρὴ τί χρή με, δέσποτ᾽, ἐν ξένᾳ ξένον Schein scans the first four syllables as u-u-u- (u = light, -= heavy). But shouldn't τί be heavy, since it is followed by to consonants? -I thought that strophe and antistrophe were perfect metrical copies of each other, ...
by Bart
Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:09 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Philoctetes, questions.
Replies: 9
Views: 1279

Re: Philoctetes, questions.

Ta!

-Νεοπτόλεμε: yes, clear
-ἐγὼ μὲν οὓς ἂν τῶν λόγων ἀλγῶ κλύων: off course, a general relative clause. I'm affraid I didn't notice the fact that ἀλγῶ is a subjunctive: not good.
-δέχου τὰ συμφέροντα τῶν ἀεὶ λόγων: the example from Xenophon helps a lot.
by Bart
Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:42 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Philoctetes, questions.
Replies: 9
Views: 1279

Philoctetes, questions.

I have a couple of questions about the prologue of Sophocles' Philoctetes. -line 4: Ἀχιλλέως παῖ Νεοπτόλεμε, τὸν Μηλιᾶ According to Schein (Cambridge Greek and Latin Classics) Νεοπτόλεμε is scanned: heavy-light-light-light, so the first two syllables of the name are pronounced as one (synizesis) and...
by Bart
Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:36 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Seneca epistulae morales 24
Replies: 6
Views: 1182

Re: Seneca epistulae morales 24

Thank you. Future perfect: so, in Latin you say (or can say) -> When you will have done/ watched/ found X, you will find/ do/ see Y, instead of: if you do/ will do X, you will find Y. But it seems a rather complicated way of saying so. Does it? Well, no, perhaps not if you do not have a word for zom...
by Bart
Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:43 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Seneca epistulae morales 24
Replies: 6
Views: 1182

Seneca epistulae morales 24

I'm enjoying myself reading Seneca, I prefer his snappy style over Cicero's periods. I have a few questions after having read letter 24. 24.3: In quamcumque partem rerum vel civilium vel externarum memoriam miseris, occurrent tibi ingenia aut profectus aut inpetus magni. Cast your mind back to any s...
by Bart
Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:27 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Seneca, epistulae morales, 7th letter
Replies: 4
Views: 1029

Re: Seneca, epistulae morales, 7th letter

Thanks! Well, there you have it. B pār, păris, n., a pair: gladiatorum par nobilissimum, Cic. Opt. Gen. Or. 6, 17: ecce tibi geminum in scelere par, id. Phil. 11, 1, 2: par nobile fratrum, Hor. S. 2, 3, 243: par columbarum, Ov. M. 13, 833: par mularum, Gai. Inst. 3, 212: par oculorum, Suet. Rhet. 5:...
by Bart
Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:08 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Seneca, epistulae morales, 7th letter
Replies: 4
Views: 1029

Seneca, epistulae morales, 7th letter

Reading Seneca's 7th letter to Lucilius: - 7.1: Quid tibi vitandum praecipue existimes, quaeris ? Turbam. Nondum illi tuto committeris. Committeris is the passive used with reflexive meaning, right? -> entrust yourself to... -7.3: Nihil habent quo tegantur, ad ictum totis corporibus expositi numquam...
by Bart
Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:33 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus
Replies: 13
Views: 2830

Re: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus

You made your position crystal clear. When three experienced readers of Homer like yourself, Bill and Paul disagree with my reading of this episode, I can only take a step back and reconsider. Athene made clear at the outset that it’s a fellow-Phaeacian she's to wed. Does she? In Od 6, 27 Athene tel...
by Bart
Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:45 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus
Replies: 13
Views: 2830

Re: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus

Thanks, Michael. Still, Czekhov famously said that if a gun is seen hanging on the wall in the first act, it’s bound to go off before the end of the play. Thus is the internal logic of theatre and literature. Applied to the Nausicaa episode, this means that if a young woman is introduced and even ta...
by Bart
Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:15 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus
Replies: 13
Views: 2830

Re: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus

Thanks for the advice: Flaubert is great. But I’m not looking for strict realism in Homer. How could one in a story that has the protagonist slay a one eyed giant, visit the underworld and withstand the advances of a sea nymph for seven years? However, every fictional world creates its own internal ...
by Bart
Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:55 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus
Replies: 13
Views: 2830

Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus

At the end of their first meeting Alconous (or Alkinoös) suggests to Odysseus he could stay and marry Nausicaa: 311-315, od 7 αἲ γάρ, Ζεῦ τε πάτερ καὶ Ἀθηναίη καὶ Ἄπολλον, τοῖος ἐὼν οἷός ἐσσι, τά τε φρονέων ἅ τ᾽ ἐγώ περ, παῖδά τ᾽ ἐμὴν ἐχέμεν καὶ ἐμὸς γαμβρὸς καλέεσθαι αὖθι μένων: οἶκον δέ κ᾽ ἐγὼ καὶ...
by Bart
Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:11 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Another nice article re: Aeneid
Replies: 3
Views: 1512

Re: Another nice article re: Aeneid

Latin: Ovidius' Metamorphoses, the Daedalus & Icarus episode that I read a long time ago at school. I still remember the moment, when suddenly, after many hours of hard work, everything fell into place -rythm, sound, meaning- and I experienced the text as poetry for the first time and not just as a ...