Search found 361 matches

by Bart
Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:40 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Lysis 219e and Hemlock
Replies: 36
Views: 17272

Re: Lysis 219e and Hemlock

Yes, it's pathetic. The body not decomposing after death (incorruptibility is the official term I think) is a sign of sainthood in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church. Christ's body didn't decompose after all according to official dogma. I don't know if this (i.e. the body not decaying) w...
by Bart
Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:24 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Lysis 219e and Hemlock
Replies: 36
Views: 17272

Re: Lysis 219e and Hemlock

Guillain-Barré-syndrome was apparently a major cause of death for ancient Greek celebrities, killing not only Socrates but also Alexander the Great: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 115006.htm
by Bart
Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:12 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Philoctetes, questions.
Replies: 9
Views: 670

Re: Philoctetes, questions.

First chorus: a very active chorus so to say, almost another dramatis persona and used with great effect to prepare the audience for the first appearance of Philoctetes. I found Neoptolemus' reply in lines 191-200 interesting. οὐδὲν τούτων θαυμαστὸν ἐμοί: θεῖα γάρ, εἴπερ κἀγώ τι φρονῶ, καὶ τὰ παθήμα...
by Bart
Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:50 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Philoctetes, questions.
Replies: 9
Views: 670

Re: Philoctetes, questions.

Thanks for taking the time to spell this out so lucidly.
by Bart
Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:36 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Philoctetes, questions.
Replies: 9
Views: 670

Re: Philoctetes, questions.

Two questions about meter: -line 135: τί χρὴ τί χρή με, δέσποτ᾽, ἐν ξένᾳ ξένον Schein scans the first four syllables as u-u-u- (u = light, -= heavy). But shouldn't τί be heavy, since it is followed by to consonants? -I thought that strophe and antistrophe were perfect metrical copies of each other, ...
by Bart
Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:09 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Philoctetes, questions.
Replies: 9
Views: 670

Re: Philoctetes, questions.

Ta!

-Νεοπτόλεμε: yes, clear
-ἐγὼ μὲν οὓς ἂν τῶν λόγων ἀλγῶ κλύων: off course, a general relative clause. I'm affraid I didn't notice the fact that ἀλγῶ is a subjunctive: not good.
-δέχου τὰ συμφέροντα τῶν ἀεὶ λόγων: the example from Xenophon helps a lot.
by Bart
Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:42 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Philoctetes, questions.
Replies: 9
Views: 670

Philoctetes, questions.

I have a couple of questions about the prologue of Sophocles' Philoctetes. -line 4: Ἀχιλλέως παῖ Νεοπτόλεμε, τὸν Μηλιᾶ According to Schein (Cambridge Greek and Latin Classics) Νεοπτόλεμε is scanned: heavy-light-light-light, so the first two syllables of the name are pronounced as one (synizesis) and...
by Bart
Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:36 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Seneca epistulae morales 24
Replies: 6
Views: 538

Re: Seneca epistulae morales 24

Thank you. Future perfect: so, in Latin you say (or can say) -> When you will have done/ watched/ found X, you will find/ do/ see Y, instead of: if you do/ will do X, you will find Y. But it seems a rather complicated way of saying so. Does it? Well, no, perhaps not if you do not have a word for zom...
by Bart
Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:43 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Seneca epistulae morales 24
Replies: 6
Views: 538

Seneca epistulae morales 24

I'm enjoying myself reading Seneca, I prefer his snappy style over Cicero's periods. I have a few questions after having read letter 24. 24.3: In quamcumque partem rerum vel civilium vel externarum memoriam miseris, occurrent tibi ingenia aut profectus aut inpetus magni. Cast your mind back to any s...
by Bart
Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:27 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Seneca, epistulae morales, 7th letter
Replies: 4
Views: 572

Re: Seneca, epistulae morales, 7th letter

Thanks! Well, there you have it. B pār, păris, n., a pair: gladiatorum par nobilissimum, Cic. Opt. Gen. Or. 6, 17: ecce tibi geminum in scelere par, id. Phil. 11, 1, 2: par nobile fratrum, Hor. S. 2, 3, 243: par columbarum, Ov. M. 13, 833: par mularum, Gai. Inst. 3, 212: par oculorum, Suet. Rhet. 5:...
by Bart
Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:08 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Seneca, epistulae morales, 7th letter
Replies: 4
Views: 572

Seneca, epistulae morales, 7th letter

Reading Seneca's 7th letter to Lucilius: - 7.1: Quid tibi vitandum praecipue existimes, quaeris ? Turbam. Nondum illi tuto committeris. Committeris is the passive used with reflexive meaning, right? -> entrust yourself to... -7.3: Nihil habent quo tegantur, ad ictum totis corporibus expositi numquam...
by Bart
Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:33 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus
Replies: 13
Views: 1540

Re: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus

You made your position crystal clear. When three experienced readers of Homer like yourself, Bill and Paul disagree with my reading of this episode, I can only take a step back and reconsider. Athene made clear at the outset that it’s a fellow-Phaeacian she's to wed. Does she? In Od 6, 27 Athene tel...
by Bart
Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:45 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus
Replies: 13
Views: 1540

Re: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus

Thanks, Michael. Still, Czekhov famously said that if a gun is seen hanging on the wall in the first act, it’s bound to go off before the end of the play. Thus is the internal logic of theatre and literature. Applied to the Nausicaa episode, this means that if a young woman is introduced and even ta...
by Bart
Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:15 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus
Replies: 13
Views: 1540

Re: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus

Thanks for the advice: Flaubert is great. But I’m not looking for strict realism in Homer. How could one in a story that has the protagonist slay a one eyed giant, visit the underworld and withstand the advances of a sea nymph for seven years? However, every fictional world creates its own internal ...
by Bart
Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:55 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus
Replies: 13
Views: 1540

Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus

At the end of their first meeting Alconous (or Alkinoös) suggests to Odysseus he could stay and marry Nausicaa: 311-315, od 7 αἲ γάρ, Ζεῦ τε πάτερ καὶ Ἀθηναίη καὶ Ἄπολλον, τοῖος ἐὼν οἷός ἐσσι, τά τε φρονέων ἅ τ᾽ ἐγώ περ, παῖδά τ᾽ ἐμὴν ἐχέμεν καὶ ἐμὸς γαμβρὸς καλέεσθαι αὖθι μένων: οἶκον δέ κ᾽ ἐγὼ καὶ...
by Bart
Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:11 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Another nice article re: Aeneid
Replies: 3
Views: 1131

Re: Another nice article re: Aeneid

Latin: Ovidius' Metamorphoses, the Daedalus & Icarus episode that I read a long time ago at school. I still remember the moment, when suddenly, after many hours of hard work, everything fell into place -rythm, sound, meaning- and I experienced the text as poetry for the first time and not just as a ...
by Bart
Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:54 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 6: 160-169
Replies: 6
Views: 1315

Re: Odyssey 6: 160-169

Yes, about the comparison. My somewhat prosaic point was that if it is indeed the very tree under which Leto gave birth to Apollo, you would expect it to be an ancient specimen since this event happened supposedly many generations before Odysseus set eyes on it.
by Bart
Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:00 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 6: 160-169
Replies: 6
Views: 1315

Re: Odyssey 6: 160-169

Ça explique. Thanks. But wouldn't an old, venerable tree in that case be more logical? Or is the point that the tree is forever young?

Thanks too for the quotes. I knew the Homeric Hymn to Apollo, but the one by Callimachus is new to me and looks very interesting.
by Bart
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:54 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 6: 160-169
Replies: 6
Views: 1315

Odyssey 6: 160-169

Odysseus adressess Nausicaa and compares the awe he feels when meeting her to the awe he felt when seeing a certain palm tree on Delos: οὐ γάρ πω τοιοῦτον ἴδον βροτὸν ὀφθαλμοῖσιν, οὔτ᾽ ἄνδρ᾽ οὔτε γυναῖκα: σέβας μ᾽ ἔχει εἰσορόωντα. Δήλῳ δή ποτε τοῖον Ἀπόλλωνος παρὰ βωμῷ φοίνικος νέον ἔρνος ἀνερχόμενο...
by Bart
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:11 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 5: Is Calypso trying to kill Odysseus?
Replies: 3
Views: 958

Re: Odyssey 5: Is Calypso trying to kill Odysseus?

You two are probably right. The shipwreck piece is vivid and realistic, as you say. The similes in this passage are striking too: 394-399, Od. 5 ὡς δ᾽ ὅτ᾽ ἂν ἀσπάσιος βίοτος παίδεσσι φανήῃ πατρός, ὃς ἐν νούσῳ κεῖται κρατέρ᾽ ἄλγεα πάσχων, δηρὸν τηκόμενος, στυγερὸς δέ οἱ ἔχραε δαίμων, ἀσπάσιον δ᾽ ἄρα ...
by Bart
Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:42 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 5: Is Calypso trying to kill Odysseus?
Replies: 3
Views: 958

Odyssey 5: Is Calypso trying to kill Odysseus?

After leaving Ogygia, Odysseus is shipwrecked by a storm unleashed by Poseidon. He nearly drowns when he falls off his self made raft (or boat) because the clothes Calypso gave him only 50 lines earlier pull him down (Odyssey 5, 319-321) ) τὸν δ᾽ ἄρ᾽ ὑπόβρυχα θῆκε πολὺν χρόνον, οὐδ᾽ ἐδυνάσθη αἶψα μά...
by Bart
Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:14 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Homer in the Economist
Replies: 5
Views: 2515

Re: Homer in the Economist

Coming back to the topic of contemporary literature inspired by Homer, I'ld like to recommend Daniel Mendelsohn's 'An Odyssey'. It's an autobiographical account by a classicist who's 81-year old father enrolls in his class on Homer's Odyssey. What follows is partly literary analysis of some highligh...
by Bart
Thu May 24, 2018 12:47 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 3,9,2
Replies: 8
Views: 1403

Re: Herodotus 3,9,2

The Persian and Phoenician version are just as good as the Greek ones, or almost as good. The Greek version (only indirectly mentioned by Herodotus in 1.2.1: οὕτω μὲν Ἰοῦν ἐς Αἴγυπτον ἀπικέσθαι λέγουσι Πέρσαι, οὐκ ὡς Ἕλληνές, καὶ τῶν ἀδικημάτων πρῶτον τοῦτο ἄρξαι) was that Io fled to Egypt as a whi...
by Bart
Wed May 23, 2018 7:44 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 3,9,2
Replies: 8
Views: 1403

Re: Herodotus 3,9,2

Ah, I didn't know about the reverse search function, thanks. Michael: you're right of course, there's much more to Herodotus' method than just telling stories. What struck me is his obvious delight in telling a good one. This in combination with his mastery as a prose writer is one of his major attr...
by Bart
Tue May 22, 2018 12:30 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 3,9,2
Replies: 8
Views: 1403

Herodotus 3,9,2

οὗτος μὲν ὁ πιθανώτερος τῶν λόγων εἴρηται, δεῖ δὲ καὶ τὸν ἧσσον πιθανόν, ἐπεί γε δὴ λέγεται, ῥηθῆναι. This is the most credible of the stories told; but I must relate the less credible tale also, since they tell it. (Godley) That’s the quintessential Herodotus to me: he is interested in the truth, n...
by Bart
Thu May 03, 2018 9:09 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Homer in the Economist
Replies: 5
Views: 2515

Re: Homer in the Economist

Historical novels: a lot depends on the expectations you approach them with. Of course I also believe them to be no substitute for original texts in any way. Instead they offer an imaginative recreation of the past seen from the author's perspective. A good historical novel can convince us of the pl...
by Bart
Wed May 02, 2018 11:01 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Homer in the Economist
Replies: 5
Views: 2515

Homer in the Economist

There's an interesting article in the latest issue of the Economist (unfortunately only available for subscribers) under the title 'Adrift on the Wine Dark-Sea'. It deals with Homer as a source of inspiration for modern fiction. The following novels are mentioned and shortly reviewed: -The Song of A...
by Bart
Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:10 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 3, 92-95
Replies: 4
Views: 1870

Re: Odyssey 3, 92-95

About γάρ: in my view this can just as well point back to the entire passage (or to κείνου for that matter) clearly dealing with Odysseus. As you said, both readings are possible and both seem to have their -well informed- cheerleaders. Unless you have an ace up your sleeve, let's move on to more in...
by Bart
Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:27 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 3, 92-95
Replies: 4
Views: 1870

Re: Odyssey 3, 92-95

. On the other hand, πλάζω is a verb that is regularly applied to Odysseus in the Odyssey and is closely associated with him. Beginning from line 2: Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ πλάγχθη , ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσε Isn't the word closely associated with him simply bec...
by Bart
Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:08 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 3, 92-95
Replies: 4
Views: 1870

Odyssey 3, 92-95

I'm rereading the first books of the Odyssey using the Oxford commentary by Heubeck, Stephanie West and Hainsworth. This is from the beginning of book 3. Telemachus is adressing Nestor, asking him information about his father. τοὔνεκα νῦν τὰ σὰ γούναθ᾽ ἱκάνομαι, αἴ κ᾽ ἐθέλῃσθα κείνου λυγρὸν ὄλεθρον ...
by Bart
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:11 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Newbie seeks good readers
Replies: 17
Views: 4658

Re: Newbie seeks good readers

'Thucydides für den Schulgebracuh erklärt'; it makes you wonder about the proficiency these 19th century schoolboys (and girls?) had in reading Greek when such a difficult author was part of their curriculum. To achieve this a massive time investment must have been necessary. Or does it also reflect...
by Bart
Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:57 am
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Newbie seeks good readers
Replies: 17
Views: 4658

Re: Newbie seeks good readers

Paul, do you know this 19th century edition of Thucydides?

https://archive.org/details/thukydidesfrden01thucgoog
by Bart
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:51 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Newbie seeks good readers
Replies: 17
Views: 4658

Re: Newbie seeks good readers

Deal!
by Bart
Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:25 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Newbie seeks good readers
Replies: 17
Views: 4658

Re: Newbie seeks good readers

Paul, did you use the 19th century commentary by Heinrich Stein for Herodotus? I have a lovely, old edition standing on the shelf and plan to use it for book III of the Histories.
by Bart
Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:42 am
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Newbie seeks good readers
Replies: 17
Views: 4658

Re: Newbie seeks good readers

As much as I apppreciate the work Steadman is doing, I have some reservations. I recently used his edition of Sophocles' Antigone and though it's handy having all the vocabulary close at hand, I switched to the commentary by Griffith in the Cambridge Greek and Latin serie halfway. In contrast to Ste...
by Bart
Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:07 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Antigone 925-929
Replies: 0
Views: 1329

Antigone 925-929

Question about particles. Antigone's last speech: ἀλλ᾽ εἰ μὲν οὖν τάδ᾽ ἐστὶν ἐν θεοῖς καλά, παθόντες ἂν ξυγγνοῖμεν ἡμαρτηκότες: εἰ δ᾽ οἵδ᾽ ἁμαρτάνουσι, μὴ πλείω κακὰ πάθοιεν ἢ καὶ δρῶσιν ἐκδίκως ἐμέ. If the gods approve of what is happening, then by suffering (i.e. after I die) I will come to realiz...
by Bart
Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:02 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Antigone, 384-581
Replies: 3
Views: 1476

Re: Antigone, 384-581

Thanks! For what it's worth: Griffith thinks the line should be assigned to Ismene. His reasoning for this is that 1) A third speaker's single-line interrruption of a two-person stichomythia would be highly unusual 2) It is more chararcteristic of the warm-hearted Ismene (as he calls her) to express...
by Bart
Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:10 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Antigone, 384-581
Replies: 3
Views: 1476

Antigone, 384-581

Griffith’s commentary arrived and proved to be essential to help me through these lines. What a wealth of information it contains! A few questions remain. 473-479: ἀλλ᾽ ἴσθι τοι τὰ σκλήρ᾽ ἄγαν φρονήματα πίπτειν μάλιστα, καὶ τὸν ἐγκρατέστατον σίδηρον ὀπτὸν ἐκ πυρὸς περισκελῆ θραυσθέντα καὶ ῥαγέντα πλ...
by Bart
Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:30 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Antigone 332-383
Replies: 4
Views: 1412

Re: Antigone 332-383

Thanks!

About Ἅιδα: I read it as a genitive at first, but Steadman suggesting instead an accusative of respect made me wonder.
by Bart
Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:42 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Antigone 332-383
Replies: 4
Views: 1412

Antigone 332-383

360-361: Ἅιδα μόνον φεῦξιν οὐκ ἐπάξεται: νόσων δ᾽ ἀμηχάνων φυγὰς ξυμπέφρασται. Is Ἅιδα an accusative of respect or a genetive of seperation (Ἅιδα(ο)) with φεῦξιν? Both seem possible. No change in meaning either, so not really a big deal, but just checking. 365-371: σοφόν τι τὸ μηχανόεν τέχνας ὑπὲρ ἐ...