Search found 196 matches

by Ulpianus
Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:05 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises
Replies: 52
Views: 26788

Re: N&H Prose Composition, preliminary exercises

... We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall...
by Ulpianus
Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:27 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Fowler, The King's English
Replies: 24
Views: 8996

Re: Fowler, The King's English

Well, that frees me from decades of unnecessary guilt!
by Ulpianus
Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:00 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Fowler, The King's English
Replies: 24
Views: 8996

Re: Fowler, The King's English

Very interesting examples (though in the second one is nobody plural or is "their" as an early example of a gender-neutral singular pronoun -- of which I think Fowler would disapprove?!). (I suppose as regards "none" I may have been unduly influenced by the teacher who told me that I should use the ...
by Ulpianus
Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:32 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Fowler, The King's English
Replies: 24
Views: 8996

Re: Fowler, The King's English

The whole "outside" discussion is a blind alley, is it not. Whether it's "outside of" or "outside" (and I agree that either is fine) neither "nothing outside apples tastes so sweet" nor "nothing outside of apples tastes so sweet" seems (to me) a natural alternative to "nothing but ...": it needs to ...
by Ulpianus
Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:08 am
Forum: Wheelock's Latin
Topic: ille, hic,iste pronouns
Replies: 1
Views: 3946

Re: ille, hic,iste pronouns

Yes, it can. It's usually, IIRC, emphatic and often contemptuous. If the prosecutor said, gesturing at the defendant, " She did it!" that might be a time for iste. As far as the others are concerned, if you recall the "core" meanings of the pronouns (he, this [one], that [one]" but also remember tha...
by Ulpianus
Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:24 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Fowler, The King's English
Replies: 24
Views: 8996

Re: Fowler, The King's English

...and with all due respect "but" doesn't mean "outside": it means "except", "save for", "other than". Regarding "outside", consult a good English dictionary to see otherwise. De anglicè "outside" praepositione, ut aliter scias, in dictionarium bonum anglicum inquiras. [quote=""OED, Second edition,...
by Ulpianus
Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:31 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Fowler, The King's English
Replies: 24
Views: 8996

Re: Fowler, The King's English

Thanks! I didn't actually think anyone was mad -- or even wrong; indeed, I wasn't conscious of much real disagreement (except Adrianus finds comfortable and natural something that I think many people would find pedantic and awkward, though it's certainly correct). We could, I suppose, argue about ho...
by Ulpianus
Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:37 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Fowler, The King's English
Replies: 24
Views: 8996

Re: Fowler, The King's English

Well, Fowler is saying it is correct English. That doesn't make it good. To my ear -- a matter of taste no doubt -- neither version works well and it's much smoother if one eliminates the temptation to error by keeping the number consistent throughout.
by Ulpianus
Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:20 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Fowler, The King's English
Replies: 24
Views: 8996

Re: Fowler, The King's English

Ulpiane, I think you are wrong: there is no reason why the phrase after but = except should have the same number as the subject. Compare: "I have nothing but apples." Would "I have nothing but an apple" be more correct? I have nothing but apples is fine: there's only one verb and it needs to be "I ...
by Ulpianus
Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:36 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Fowler, The King's English
Replies: 24
Views: 8996

Re: Fowler, The King's English

I assume it's because there is a mismatch: "no-one" is asking for (and getting) a singular verb, but "schoolmasters and schoolboys" are asking for (but can't have) a plural verb. The result is clumsy, and certainly not idiomatic (for in actual speech only a schoolmaster would plump for the singular ...
by Ulpianus
Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:59 pm
Forum: Wheelock's Latin
Topic: #23 of 38 Latin Stories
Replies: 1
Views: 5599

Re: #23 of 38 Latin Stories

I'm not sure I would have ended up with that translation! With a difficult passage, I start by being absurdly literalistic: "metu aut misericordia oppressi terrentur aut flent" "by fear or by pity overcome they are terrified or they weep" I know people say start with the verb, but I don't think that...
by Ulpianus
Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:17 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: another "si qua est"
Replies: 14
Views: 8638

Re: another "si qua est"

I didn't say you couldn't translate it otherwise; I just thought the adjectival sense was finer in the context, because I do see a significant difference. "if there is any pity at all in heaven to care about such things => sustains a reading "surely there must be" whereas "if somehow there is pity ...
by Ulpianus
Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:10 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: another "si qua est"
Replies: 14
Views: 8638

Re: another "si qua est"

It isn't the same there, Ulpianus. It's different. There it is "Sī quā fāta sinant" = "If thus the fates would allow" and not " Sī quae fāta sinant " for "If any fates would allow" . Aliter, Ulpiane, ibi est, scilicet "quā", aliud vocabulum seu incarnatio pronominis adverbialis. Sorry, that was rat...
by Ulpianus
Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:47 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: another "si qua est"
Replies: 14
Views: 8638

Re: another "si qua est"

But, Adrianus, how do you then deal with "si qua fata sinant"? I may be going mad, but I don't see how qua could be adjectival there, and it needs to scan long. I'd rather guess it's the same use in each case. I think personally it's better not to worry too much. It's a (no exclusively) poetic idiom...
by Ulpianus
Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:21 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: another "si qua est"
Replies: 14
Views: 8638

Re: another "si qua est"

I'm afraid in my dull way I just think of it as meaning "if, somehow", or even just "if". It's a pretty common construction. So "si qua est ea cura" means more or less "if it matters".
by Ulpianus
Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:00 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Problem With a Sentence in Livy
Replies: 6
Views: 1821

I agree with magistra. Why do you think that 200 does not go with 12?
by Ulpianus
Tue May 02, 2006 8:27 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Just a few M&F kwesch'nz
Replies: 9
Views: 2598

Re: Just a few M&F kwesch'nz

3a lux aurea aurorae sidera quae flammis frigidis nocte fulgent vertice caeli removet the golden light of dawn removes the constellations/stars which shine as a[cold] flame to the [cold] night from the top of the sky. I wasn't sure which one frigidis belonged to, and I'm having trouble with the dou...
by Ulpianus
Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:11 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Question about Livy...
Replies: 11
Views: 3493

I would take "cum parvum praesidii videretur" as follows: "when (cum) he seemed (videretur) insufficient (parvum) with respect to a defence (praesidii)". No need for a negative: "parvus" = "small/insignificant/weak" (i.e. in context no adequate defence).

How are you taking "in quo"?
by Ulpianus
Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:14 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Direct Object of the Complementary Verb
Replies: 15
Views: 6299

Are you actually having trouble with this? In the sentence you give, I do not see how there could be any ambiguity. What sense could be made of the sentence you give other than the intended one? Contrary to what is sometimes suggested, especially when you start out, Latin does not always disambiguat...
by Ulpianus
Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:57 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: De maiusculis
Replies: 21
Views: 6837

Thanks. That's fascinating. Some interesting examples here, helpful if you read French . I have no idea whether the book is reliable or not. From a very superficial glance, it seems as if practice varies: sometimes separations, sometimes not, sometimes marks to separate, sometimes not, sometimes ori...
by Ulpianus
Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:13 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: De maiusculis
Replies: 21
Views: 6837

Err ... Chris ... that was not supposed to be taken altogether seriously, though heaven knows my knowledge of paleography is limited to a few anecdotes, which may all be quite wrong. In so far as there is any serious point to it at all, it is that a modern text may well look nothing like an ancient ...
by Ulpianus
Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:17 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Question about Livy...
Replies: 11
Views: 3493

It's not so odd, though it needs quite free translation if it is not to be stilted. Try using "anyone who ...":

"Anyone who disdains human interests other than wealth, and reckons that high honour and nobility are found only where lavish wealth abounds, really ought to listen."
by Ulpianus
Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:40 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: De maiusculis
Replies: 21
Views: 6837

IHAVENOIDEAUNFORTUNATELYWHYTHECAPITALISATION CONVENTIONINLATINISASITISOREVENWHENITFIRSTAROSE ITCERTAINLYDOESNOTRESTONANYTHINGINTHEORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTSFORMYOWNPARTIREALLYDONTCAREMUCH ABOUTCAPITALISATION&FEELICOULDFUNCTIONQUITE WELLIFSENTENCESBEGANWITHCAPITALLETTERSORIF PROPERNOUNSDIDNOTBUTIAMVERYGRAT...
by Ulpianus
Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:48 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Possessive Adjectives
Replies: 20
Views: 10547

ut paterentur eos ire per suos fines. (so that they [the Allobroges = SUBJECT of UT-clause] might allow them (eos = Helvetios = OBJECT of UT-clause) to go through their [referring back to SUBJECT of the UT-clause] territory) Yes. But suppose it had been the Helvetian's own territory that the Allobr...
by Ulpianus
Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:29 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Possessive Adjectives
Replies: 20
Views: 10547

An illuminating case of the use of 'suos', I thought. Is it? I'd have thought it has the extra complication of oratio obliqua, as a result of which (as a matter purely of grammar) it is not clear whether the territory is that of the Helvetians of the Allobroges ... though only the latter makes sens...
by Ulpianus
Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:11 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Possessive Adjectives
Replies: 12
Views: 3677

These are two sentences you used: 1. They like your book: librum vestrum amant 2. You like your own book: librum vestrum amatis What is the formation of AMATIS? I would have thought it was amo. Is it from amatis that you see that it is reflexive while in amant you see that it is not? The words LIBR...
by Ulpianus
Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:01 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Prose vs. Verse?
Replies: 2
Views: 1294

I'm not sure if this is what you are getting at. The infinitive is sometimes used in poetry (not prose) with a verb of motion to express purpose. Kennedy gives as an example: uenio uisere I come to inspect. This breaks the general rule that an infinitive is not used to express purpose in Latin. Thus...
by Ulpianus
Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:49 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Possessive Adjectives
Replies: 20
Views: 10547

Really nicely put.

Just so everyone's clear ... when Iohannes casam suam flammat, our expectations are disappointed: the Latin makes it clear that things are not as we might expect, and John is a reflexo-arsonist, now looking for a new hut.
by Ulpianus
Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:34 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Possessive Adjectives
Replies: 12
Views: 3677

Well, vester can never be "their" (that's suus again), only ever "your". But subject to that slight qualification, I think you've got it. As to examples: He likes his own book: librum suum amat. He likes his (someone else's book): librum eius amat. They like your book: librum vestrum amant. You like...
by Ulpianus
Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:59 pm
Forum: Latin For Beginners by D'Ooge
Topic: Is D'Ooge's a Preparation for reading Caesar's Gallic Wars?
Replies: 3
Views: 5180

Dunno. Though Gallic Wars would have been a classic "first text" at the time it was written.

I can't see myself how a preparation for reading Gallic War would not also serve to prepare one for Civil War.
by Ulpianus
Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:46 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Possessive Adjectives
Replies: 12
Views: 3677

I've edited my reply above, hopefully to make it clear. In a nutshell it is reflexive in both "he likes his (own) book" and "you like your book", using reflexive in the sense of referring back to the subject of the sentence. Vester can be reflexive, in an example like that. But vester is not reflexi...
by Ulpianus
Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:35 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Possessive Adjectives
Replies: 12
Views: 3677

He likes his (own) book is reflexive not because he is doing something to himself, but because the book is owned by the subject of the verb, by the person doing the liking. This may not be reflexivity as such, but it is an allied concept, and it's convenient to use the word. For myself, I would say ...
by Ulpianus
Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:14 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Possessive Adjectives
Replies: 12
Views: 3677

Take the following English sentences: "Albert greets Benedict. Albert greets his son, Charles, too." Now whose son is Charles? Albert's or Benedict. In English it is ambiguous (so people sometimes add "And he greets his (Albert's) son"). In Latin, not so, because there are two separate ways of produ...
by Ulpianus
Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:12 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: struggling with Vergil
Replies: 9
Views: 2472

Maybe Dryden assumed that many or most of his readers--and at least his notional ideal readers--knew perfectly well what the Latin meant, but were to admire the remarkable way in which he "turned it" into English verse. To admire the English verse as English verse, appreciating its subtle and someti...
by Ulpianus
Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:20 am
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Whats easier to learn?
Replies: 85
Views: 25182

There are some things in this thread I don't much like the tone of. It is almost disgusting, I think, to find anyone on this forum giving what amounts to discouragement to someone who wants to learn Latin or Greek. Nobody could possibly say that 13 is too young to learn Latin. 100 years ago they wou...
by Ulpianus
Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:58 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Which Latin Text is your Primary Learning Tool?
Replies: 9
Views: 3200

It doesn't seem such a bad plan to prepare people to read Caesar. I think he makes a good "first" author, because the syntax is quite simple and the vocabulary relatively small. And the history is really important.
by Ulpianus
Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:15 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Which Latin Text is your Primary Learning Tool?
Replies: 9
Views: 3200

I haven't voted, because the poll suggests that it is interested to find out what is currently being used, and it's 20 years since I last "used" a textbook. But when I did learn (at school) we used the Cambridge Latin Course until we were 16, and thereafter just a selection of texts with notes, whic...
by Ulpianus
Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:54 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Mea culpa! A call to confession.
Replies: 27
Views: 9237

Thanks to all for their replies to this, which I have found very illuminating. What is particularly interesting to me is that the overall tenor of the replies strongly suggests that there is at least a common goal among those who are learning Latin. We want to be able to understand Latin thoroughly ...
by Ulpianus
Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:44 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Mea culpa! A call to confession.
Replies: 27
Views: 9237

Lucus's observations on Lingua Latina interest me. I was taught using the (original) Cambridge Latin Course, one of whose admirable purposes was to get away from teaching translation as a sort of "decoding", and indeed when I learned it trying to avoid traditional grammar terms (we called the ablati...
by Ulpianus
Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:03 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Pronounciation Issues
Replies: 2
Views: 922

At the risk of starting some dreadful war over the niceties of pronunciation, I would say (and assuming you can follow my English words): vu (or, often now, uu) = approximately as in "wood" or "wool": So "ab la tee wuss", "wool guss". ji (or, generally now, ii) = "yi", and in "ying": ad yik ee at. B...