Search found 270 matches

by seanjonesbw
Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:18 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 27-47
Replies: 4
Views: 146

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 27-47

I've seen it written in quite a few places that the Phaeacians are 'excellent hosts' and that Odysseus gets a 'warm welcome' in Scheria. In contrast, the characterisation we get of the Phaeacians at lines 32-33 by Athena, Nausicaa's description of what would happen if she were seen with Odysseus (6....
by seanjonesbw
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:32 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 27-47
Replies: 4
Views: 146

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 27-47

34 νηυσὶ θοῇσιν τοί γε πεποιθότες ὠκείῃσι 35 λαῖτμα μέγ ̓ ἐκπερόωσιν, ἐπεί σφισι δῶκ ̓ ἐνοσίχθων· 36 τῶν νέες ὠκεῖαι ὡς εἰ πτερὸν ἠὲ νόημα.” Line 36 is a very beautiful image - there's a tendency in English translations to render πτερὸν as bird by synecdoche rather than wing or feather which kills ...
by seanjonesbw
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:11 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 27-47
Replies: 4
Views: 146

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 27-47

27 τὸν δ ̓ αὖτε προσέειπε θεά, γλαυκῶπις Ἀθήνη· 28 “τοιγὰρ ἐγώ τοι, ξεῖνε πάτερ, δόμον, ὅν με κελεύεις, 29 δείξω, ἐπεί μοι πατρὸς ἀμύμονος ἐγγύθι ναίει. 30 ἀλλ ̓ ἴθι σιγῇ τοῖον, ἐγὼ δ ̓ ὁδὸν ἡγεμονεύσω, 31 μηδέ τιν ̓ ἀνθρώπων προτιόσσεο μηδ ̓ ἐρέεινε. 32 οὐ γὰρ ξείνους οἵδε μάλ ̓ ἀνθρώπους ἀνέχοντα...
by seanjonesbw
Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:56 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 27-47
Replies: 4
Views: 146

Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 Lines 27-47

Welcome to the Odyssey Reading Group! Anyone is welcome to join in at any time, regardless of their Greek ability. If you’re itching to explore Homer’s epic tale of survival, adventure, love, lust, kinship, betrayal and spooky dead people, hop on in, you’ll be very welcome. People who have some Gree...
by seanjonesbw
Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:07 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: iota subscript
Replies: 10
Views: 271

Re: iota subscript

Thanks - I might give it a go. I've always slavishly aspired to Porson but I'm quite seduced by the medieval squiggles.
by seanjonesbw
Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:27 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26
Replies: 15
Views: 575

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26

See the chapter on Homeric Papyri and the Transmission of the Text in Brill’s New Companion to Homer Essential reading - I'd recommend this to anyone who follows these threads and hasn't read it. As to ὧς:ὣς, ancient grammarians took this seriously, and so did modern scholars who departed from thei...
by seanjonesbw
Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:15 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: iota subscript
Replies: 10
Views: 271

Re: iota subscript

jeidsath wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:04 pm
I did teach myself a medieval bookhand, and would recommend the same to others.
That's interesting - with ligatures? How did you go about it?
by seanjonesbw
Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:21 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26
Replies: 15
Views: 575

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26

Now you got my attention! Could you elaborate? Why not Alexandrian? I'm not contesting, just curious. I read this in West's Making of the Odyssey just today (p.43): "They [the rhapsodes] deemed both poems to be the work of their legendary ancestor Homer. And when in 522 or thereabouts Hipparchus in...
by seanjonesbw
Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:55 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Museo Archeologico Nazionale Firenze
Replies: 9
Views: 476

Re: Museo Archeologico Nazionale Firenze

seneca2008 wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:48 pm
I too loved Florence from the first although I think that's true of almost every place I have been in Italy.
If you want to cure yourself of this affliction I recommend 30 minutes driving around central Naples.
by seanjonesbw
Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:38 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26
Replies: 15
Views: 575

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26

seneca2008 wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:02 pm
My printed Allen has ὣς. Perseus and the Loeb have ὧς.
Yes sorry my brain said Perseus and my hands typed Allen.

How odd! So it really is whimsy?
by seanjonesbw
Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:27 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26
Replies: 15
Views: 575

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26

Can anyone tell me why Allen begins Book 6 with ὣς and Book 7 with ὧς? Whimsy?
by seanjonesbw
Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:25 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26
Replies: 15
Views: 575

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26

Yes the book divisions are pretty arbitrary. Whoever did them (post-Homeric, but pre-Alexandrian) set out to split each poem into parts that could be labeled alpha through omega. They’re best ignored (except for reference purposes of course). Thank you, Michael. With the 'paired' opening lines that...
by seanjonesbw
Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:26 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Museo Archeologico Nazionale Firenze
Replies: 9
Views: 476

Re: Museo Archeologico Nazionale Firenze

Be sure to see the Piaggio machine, used to unroll the Herculaneum papyri. I never know what people can and can't access on the BBC outside of the UK but Inside Science yesterday had a very interesting item interviewing the team working on the X-ray CT scanning and 'virtual unrolling' of the papyri...
by seanjonesbw
Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:46 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26
Replies: 15
Views: 575

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26

Praise be, we've made it to Book 7! For the starting-off point this week, I thought it would be interesting to discuss book divisions a little bit. I remember reading somewhere (though I can't remember where) that the book divisions are pretty arbitrary but that there are some patterns, like the sun...
by seanjonesbw
Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:11 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26
Replies: 15
Views: 575

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26

1 ὣς ὁ μὲν ἔνθ ̓ ἠρᾶτο πολύτλας δῖος Ὀδυσσεύς, 2 κούρην δὲ προτὶ ἄστυ φέρεν μένος ἡμιόνοιϊν. 3 ἡ δ ̓ ὅτε δὴ οὗ πατρὸς ἀγακλυτὰ δώμαθ ̓ ἵκανε, 4 στῆσεν ἄρ ̓ ἐν προθύροισι, κασίγνητοι δέ μιν ἀμφὶς 5 ἵσταντ ̓ ἀθανάτοις ἐναλίγκιοι, οἵ ῥ ̓ ὑπ ̓ ἀπήνης 6 ἡμιόνους ἔλυον ἐσθῆτά τε ἔσφερον εἴσω. 7 αὐτὴ δ ̓ ...
by seanjonesbw
Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:09 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26
Replies: 15
Views: 575

Odyssey Reading Group: Book 7 (!) Lines 1-26

Welcome to the Odyssey Reading Group! Anyone is welcome to join in at any time, regardless of their Greek ability. If you’re itching to explore Homer’s epic tale of survival, adventure, love, lust, kinship, betrayal and spooky dead people, hop on in, you’ll be very welcome. People who have some Gree...
by seanjonesbw
Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:49 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]
Replies: 48
Views: 1466

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Do a Textkit search for “O Brother Where Art Thou” and you’ll find a fun thread. (Sorry, I’ve forgotten how to do thread links.) Ha! Thanks for the tip off, and thank you to Aetos for the link. Particularly appropriate before we leave book 6, it seems to me - maybe Nausicaa needs her own version: ἐ...
by seanjonesbw
Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:30 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]
Replies: 48
Views: 1466

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Aetos wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:24 pm
Here's one of my favourite recreations of the Odyssey, very loosely based:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0190590/
and of course its "hit song":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHamgwlQ1yo
This is really off topic now, but surely the greatest film soundtrack of all time.
by seanjonesbw
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:26 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]
Replies: 48
Views: 1466

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

We have the text and your imagination. I think that's enough! This is an interesting point. I don't think I'll ever be able to 'unsee' that Mycenaean boar's tusk helmet when I'm reading the Iliad (10.260ff) but then I don't feel my vision of Ithaca is diminished by never having visited a Greek isla...
by seanjonesbw
Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:14 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]
Replies: 48
Views: 1466

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Folk tales are what you find in Grimm. Fairy stories are what you find in the Oxford Book of Ballads (and elsewhere). There's far less nonsense for one thing. Read Tam Lin or Thomas the Rhymer to your kids a few dozen times, or some of the Robin Hood ballads, and you'll get the idea. I think it's b...
by seanjonesbw
Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:02 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]
Replies: 48
Views: 1466

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Secondly, I have noticed people talking about "fairy stories" in relation to Homer. I wondered if anyone has some references for this. I'm not sure if you're referring to Aetos's "fairy-land" here or something else - fairy-land/fairyland is a term which has been used to talk about Scheria specifica...
by seanjonesbw
Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:39 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]
Replies: 48
Views: 1466

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

There are 2 types: natural, and landscaped. Natural sacred groves would be found in those places untouched and thus not defiled by man. Landscaped of course, would be those specifically planted about a temple or shrine. I actually hadn't considered that you might plant a sacred grove, how interesti...
by seanjonesbw
Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:45 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]
Replies: 48
Views: 1466

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

A question for those with much wider and deeper reading than I have: 321 δύσετό τ ̓ ἠέλιος καὶ τοὶ κλυτὸν ἄλσος ἵκοντο 322 ἱρὸν Ἀθηναίης, ἵν ̓ ἄρ ̓ ἕζετο δῖος Ὀδυσσεύς. Does a Greek (in fiction) have to be told that a space is sacred to a particular god or is it 'obvious' in some way? And is a grove...
by seanjonesbw
Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:18 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]
Replies: 48
Views: 1466

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Could someone shed some light of Scheria's geographical setting for Odysseus' encounter with Nausicaa? I bought a copy of Merry's edition of the Odyssey for schools a while back, which has the following comment on 6.262-65 and the picture below accompanying it: "Translate the passage, ‘But when we ...
by seanjonesbw
Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:18 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]
Replies: 48
Views: 1466

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

I am not sure I can get too excited about this but I posted it because it interests two of you. 😛 well thank you for posting it anyway. Something to fill the hours until the next issue of Stamp Collectors' Weekly arrives. Here's 4, 423: καὶ τότε δὴ σχέσθαι τε βίης λῦσαί τε γέροντα, ἥρως, εἴρεσθαι δ...
by seanjonesbw
Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:55 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]
Replies: 48
Views: 1466

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

All it would take is to place commas after Ἀλκινοοῖο and ἥρως to read it as a nominative (being used a vocative as it is in 4,423) I have a tin ear when it comes to Greek but that feels clunky to me. I'd be interested to know whether there's any methodological debate here at all or just intuition. ...
by seanjonesbw
Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:41 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]
Replies: 48
Views: 1466

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

302 δώματα Φαιήκων, οἷος δόμος Ἀλκινόοιο 303 ἥρως. ἀλλ ̓ ὁπότ ̓ ἄν σε δόμοι κεκύθωσι καὶ αὐλή, ἥρως - Hainsworth says this is the spelling in the MS tradition with "remarkable uniformity" but that the form is "without parallel" for the genitive. Allen has ἥρωος, which Merry says is "generally read ...
by seanjonesbw
Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:52 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Museo Archeologico Nazionale Firenze
Replies: 9
Views: 476

Re: Museo Archeologico Nazionale Firenze

I've never been either but will take you up on your invitation for other suggestions - depending on when you were last there the Uffizi is now constantly swamped but they've introduced a new timed ticketing system which works quite well. I've only ever been April-September, so things might not be so...
by seanjonesbw
Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:19 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]
Replies: 48
Views: 1466

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Sean, there's got to be a word for that style of presentation. [redacted] As Joel says, we should steer clear of politics - purely taken as a piece of recitation, he crushes all his vowels into a lazy drone. It's how I imagine one might recite the passage as, say, a dilettante's party trick. Not to...
by seanjonesbw
Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:34 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]
Replies: 48
Views: 1466

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

τὸν πέρι μοῦσ᾽ ἐφίλησε, δίδου δ᾽ ἀγαθόν τε κακόν τε:
πρὶν ψυχῆς μὲν ἄμερσε, δίδου δ᾽ ἡδεῖαν ἀοιδήν.
by seanjonesbw
Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:05 am
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Missa Papae Marcelli
Replies: 2
Views: 152

Re: Missa Papae Marcelli

Palestrina ❤️ - thank you for posting this. Were you recording in the middle of the choir? It's interesting being able to hear the DoM counting in - I felt like I was sitting next to the tenor.
by seanjonesbw
Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:08 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]
Replies: 48
Views: 1466

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

I think it's a good idea to consider how the Odyssey is underpinned with folklore motifs, and there's lots to be gained by discussing it in those terms (I like Charles Segal's suggestion in Singers, Heroes and Gods that Nausicaa is a "genius of rebirth") - if anything, though, I think this makes it ...
by seanjonesbw
Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:20 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]
Replies: 48
Views: 1466

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Two things to start us off: Firstly, I really am a dreadful dunce when it comes to metre - Hainsworth says of "ἄστυδε ἔλθωμεν" (296) that "emendations (ἄστυδ' ἀν-, ἄστυδ' έσ- ... ἄστυ δι-) seek to obviate the hiatus which is not defended, as elsewhere in this position, by 'une coupe nette du sens' (...
by seanjonesbw
Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:15 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 71
Views: 3257

Re: Vacation reading

μέγα δέ is the standard reading (although maybe West is the standard now). Bear in mind that we leave the Phaeacians on a cliffhanger and go straight back to Odysseus, so there's no explicit contradiction.

I'm sure Paul will have more thoughts on this!
by seanjonesbw
Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:28 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 71
Views: 3257

Re: Vacation reading

I don't have West's edition but I assume from your reply that he reads μηδέ σφιν ὄρος πόλει ἀμφικαλύψαι at 158? Check the CA for the alternate reading. Quite a difference! Maybe Zeus said the first and Poseidon heard the second.
by seanjonesbw
Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:48 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 71
Views: 3257

Re: Vacation reading

jeidsath wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:49 am
I was surprised how the foreshadowing about the "mountain covering the city" (?) in an earlier book was resolved much more happily.
Their fate is actually left in doubt. It's been a popular bone for scholars to gnaw on.
by seanjonesbw
Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:20 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]
Replies: 48
Views: 1466

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Friends - sorry for my absence. I would love to say that I've been doing something urgent and exciting but I've actually just been distracted by British politics over the last few weeks. This week's reading takes us up to the end of Book 6, so I think there's scope for a bit of a review of Book 6 be...
by seanjonesbw
Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:51 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]
Replies: 48
Views: 1466

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

295 ἔνθα καθεζόμενος μεῖναι χρόνον, εἰς ὅ κεν ἡμεῖς 296 ἄστυδε ἔλθωμεν καὶ ἱκώμεθα δώματα πατρός. 297 αὐτὰρ ἐπὴν ἡμέας ἔλπῃ ποτὶ δώματ ̓ ἀφῖχθαι, 298 καὶ τότε Φαιήκων ἴμεν ἐς πόλιν ἠδ ̓ ἐρέεσθαι 299 δώματα πατρὸς ἐμοῦ μεγαλήτορος Ἀλκινόοιο. 300 ῥεῖα δ ̓ ἀρίγνωτ ̓ ἐστί, καὶ ἂν πάϊς ἡγήσαιτο 301 νήπι...
by seanjonesbw
Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:44 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]
Replies: 48
Views: 1466

Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 295-331 [end]

Welcome to the Odyssey Reading Group! Anyone is welcome to join in at any time, regardless of their Greek ability. If you’re itching to explore Homer’s epic tale of survival, adventure, love, lust, kinship, betrayal and spooky dead people, hop on in, you’ll be very welcome. People who have some Gree...