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by Paul Derouda
Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:29 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 24-47
Replies: 16
Views: 395

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 24-47

In any event I agree with mwh that to look for realism in Homer is to miss the point. I agree, and that was the whole point of my post, but I thought you would sort of read it between the lines... :) Talking about no running water in the city, I should have known that it's not a good argument. Defe...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:01 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 24-47
Replies: 16
Views: 395

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 24-47

So my question this week is: Do you think the poet creates a convincing-enough impetus for Nausikaa to go and wash her own clothes as soon as she wakes up through this dream sequence? No. It really seems like a pretext. Why would the princess need to go wash her clothes herself? And how is it possi...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:56 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 3.134
Replies: 3
Views: 110

Re: Herodotus 3.134

Thanks. I wanted to make sure, as I was uncertain about this.
by Paul Derouda
Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:57 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 3.134
Replies: 3
Views: 110

Herodotus 3.134

ὡς δὲ ἄρα μιν μετὰ ταῦτα ἰώμενος ὑγιέα ἀπέδεξε, ἐνθαῦτα δὴ διδαχθεῖσα ὑπὸ τοῦ Δημοκήδεος ἡ Ἄτοσσα προσέφερε ἐν τῇ κοίτῃ Δαρείῳ λόγον τοιόνδε. ‘ὦ βασιλεῦ, ἔχων δύναμιν τοσαύτην κάτησαι, οὔτε τι ἔθνος προσκτώμενος οὔτε δύναμιν Πέρσῃσι. [2] οἰκὸς δὲ ἐστὶ ἄνδρα καὶ νέον καὶ χρημάτων μεγάλων δεσπότην φα...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:23 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 3.53 and the sematics of διδαχθεῖσα
Replies: 12
Views: 1192

Re: Herodotus 3.53 and the sematics of διδαχθεῖσα

At the very last moment while saying goodby to his grandchildren (ἐπείτε δὲ σφέας ἀπεπέμπετο, εἶπε προπέμπων αὐτούς. ), he poses the fateful question. The younger one, Lycophron, understands at once: ἤλγησε ἀκούσας, the aorist here expressing in my view the instantaneous pain and insight on hearing...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:12 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Metrical issues Od. 6.31-36
Replies: 9
Views: 215

Re: Metrical issues Od. 6.31-36

seanjonesbw wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:24 pm
(unless you're also making a distinction between long and heavy?).
No, I used the word "heavy" because "long" is ambiguous as to whether syllable length or vowel length is meant.
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:46 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Metrical issues Od. 6.31-36
Replies: 9
Views: 215

Re: Metrical issues Od. 6.31-36

with the ἐπότρυνον πατέρα the second ο has to be long
.
Actually no - the vowel is still short, it’s the syllable that’s heavy. There’s a difference!
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:55 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Metrical issues Od. 6.31-36
Replies: 9
Views: 215

Re: Metrical issues Od. 6.31-36

Perhaps I should add that my native Finnish has a similar short/long vowel distinction as Greek, so I guess that might make things easier for me.
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:50 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Metrical issues Od. 6.31-36
Replies: 9
Views: 215

Re: Metrical issues Od. 6.31-36

I wouldn't be able read that line aloud metrically without pausing for a second and reading it twice. So yes, I do need to feel for it, but not for long. Scanning epic isn't that difficult if you keep trying. Usually it's pretty regular, you just internalize the rules (correption for instance at wor...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:04 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Metrical issues Od. 6.31-36
Replies: 9
Views: 215

Re: Metrical issues Od. 6.31-36

seanjonesbw wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:59 pm
So you're scanning this S-D(synizesis+e.c)-D(e.c)-S-D-S(synizesis), is that right?
Yes.
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:27 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Metrical issues Od. 6.31-36
Replies: 9
Views: 215

Re: Metrical issues Od. 6.31-36

I don't think there is ever internal correption in Homer, or if there is, it's very rare. Correption occurs at word boundary. ἐπότρυνον - the υ is long. ἐντύνεαι - the υ is long. δὴν = δϝὴν Line 33 - ἐντύνεαι, ἐπεὶ οὔ τοι ἔτι δὴν παρθένος ἔσσεαι -> this is a difficult line indeed! 2 instances of syn...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:19 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 3.53 and the sematics of διδαχθεῖσα
Replies: 12
Views: 1192

Re: Herodotus 3.53 and the sematics of διδαχθεῖσα

ω παι: There's a discussion of this address in Eleanor Dickey's Greek forms of address from Herodotus to Lucian . I don't remember what conclusion she reached though, and I've taken the book back to the library. If I remember correctly, it might be not as patronizing as it sounds (I seem to remembe...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:59 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 3.53 and the sematics of διδαχθεῖσα
Replies: 12
Views: 1192

Re: Herodotus 3.53 and the sematics of διδαχθεῖσα

ω παι: There's a discussion of this address in Eleanor Dickey's Greek forms of address from Herodotus to Lucian . I don't remember what conclusion she reached though, and I've taken the book back to the library. If I remember correctly, it might be not as patronizing as it sounds (I seem to remember...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:01 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23
Replies: 43
Views: 1277

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23

There's not the strength (as with overthrew) of προσλέγω or πρόσφημι in πρὸς ...ἔειπεν, because this is an earlier stage of Greek, so πρὸς is kind of doing its own thing and modifying ἔειπεν and μιν (and much less strongly, perhaps, μῦθον) while remaining distinct. I don’t agree with this. Nor do I...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:37 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23
Replies: 43
Views: 1277

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23

Hi Paul, I just read the highly entertaining thread on LfgrE. Aside from theft or raiding my pension fund is there any other access yet to this incredible resource? I found one copy of Band 2 on Amazon for US 21.00. All other Volumes appear to be unavailable. A university library. Other than that, ...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:53 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23
Replies: 43
Views: 1277

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23

:twisted: :wink: It seems to me that θυμός is the ”breath of life” and corresponds to the impulsive part of the mind - passions, anger, courage, strong emotions in general. That was an interesting thread, thanks. So for μεγαθύμος would you suggest something like 'impassioned' or 'passionate' in the...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:55 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23
Replies: 43
Views: 1277

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23

After all, Odysseus is still desperate to go home after meeting them. It reminds me of how, in the Lord of the Rings, when you meet the elves you're like 'oooh they're so polite and advanced and magical', but you'd still rather live in the Shire with a pint of good ale by the end. A good point. Ody...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:33 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23
Replies: 43
Views: 1277

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23

Hi there, On v. 9: ἀμφὶ δὲ τεῖχος ἔλασσε πόλει Is ἀμφὶ connected to πόλει as a preposition (+D.)? Is it common to have the case far away from the preposition? Or is ἀμφὶ just an adverb? I would say that either is possible. According to Homeric usage, there is even a third possibility, namely that i...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:02 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23
Replies: 43
Views: 1277

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23

The Phaeacians are μεγαθύμων, but this surely can't mean 'great-hearted' in the sense of being warm and welcoming to all strangers if Odysseus has to be shrouded in mist to avoid their taunts. 'High-minded' seems to fit better and I can't help feeling that the narrative voice thinks the slightly me...
by Paul Derouda
Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:10 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23
Replies: 43
Views: 1277

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23

1. Who are the Cyclopes that were harassing the Phaeacians? Are these the same ones that Odysseus talks about later in the Odyssey? Are they really one-eyed? In many respects, the Phaeacians are the antithesis of the Cyclopes, and I think they are reminded of for that reason. An important theme thr...
by Paul Derouda
Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:57 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23
Replies: 43
Views: 1277

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 1-23

I definitely agree with Seneca about keeping the posts to the point. Don't ask more than a couple of questions and don't make more than a few points per post; choose what you find most interesting. The point is to get the discussion started, and then people will raise other points they find interest...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:47 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Replies: 25
Views: 827

Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5

Paul, just to beat the last living daylight out of this horse, could you affirm what I think is the case, that the new Wilson OCT goes with A (μεταμελήσῃ, ἐπιζητῇ)? If so, I still don't understand the absence of ἄν/ἤν. With all due respect to Herodotus, is it possible that he was a little rusty on ...
by Paul Derouda
Fri May 31, 2019 8:44 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Introduction
Replies: 13
Views: 894

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Introduction

I won't be an "official" member of the group, but I'll follow the discussion and I'd sure like to post from time to time. Re: French resources. I think there are much less than in English. You probably know Chantraine's Grammaire homérique, which is the standard grammar in any language, but that's a...
by Paul Derouda
Fri May 31, 2019 7:35 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Replies: 25
Views: 827

Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5

By the way, my new OCT by Wilson reads the same as Hude, but the apparatus is more compact:

μεταμελήσῃ A: -σει d
ἐπιζητῇ A: -τήσει d

A is Laurentianus plut. 70.3 and d a consensus of a number of manuscripts (same as in Hude?).
by Paul Derouda
Fri May 31, 2019 7:27 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Replies: 25
Views: 827

Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5

Stupid of me, not to notice that text is not the same in Abicht! I suppose it's really an editorial decision; I see that both variants -σει and -σῃ are in the manuscripts, and I'm sure that in general these are very easily corrupted from one form to the other, to the extent that in most relevant pla...
by Paul Derouda
Thu May 30, 2019 2:10 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Replies: 25
Views: 827

Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5

That's how I understand Abicht. And if I understand him correctly, according to him there's little difference in the meaning here between the different moods. I too would be grateful for any corrections!
by Paul Derouda
Thu May 30, 2019 7:40 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Replies: 25
Views: 827

Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5

My Herodotus für den Schulgebrauch erklärt von Dr. K. Abicht (*) has an answer, I think: εἰ c. Indic. Fut. in protasi. Dem εἰ c. Indic. Fut. enspricht im folgenden ἤν c. conj. S. z. c. 35 S. 5, 38. I don't know what " S. z. c." stands for, but apparently this means "see Chapter 35, page 5 line 38 wi...
by Paul Derouda
Mon May 27, 2019 2:12 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right
Replies: 18
Views: 1576

Re: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right

I have an alternative theory! :D One heap of bones belonged to young people, the other to old people, and their respective attribution to Egyptians and Persians by Herodotus is either far-fetched speculation, national propaganda or someone pulling his leg. I’m not saying that this isn’t far-fetched ...
by Paul Derouda
Sun May 26, 2019 9:09 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right
Replies: 18
Views: 1576

Re: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right

It's a recurrent idea in Herodotus that Persians are sissies who are used to luxury (Herodotus even tells us in book 1 how it wasn't always so and how it all changed), and that was the general Greek stereotype of them. Herodotus tells us that the reason why he thinks Persians have frail skulls is th...
by Paul Derouda
Sun May 26, 2019 5:02 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right
Replies: 18
Views: 1576

Re: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right

Or, since the idea that "Persians are sissies who live in luxury" is especially Greek, perhaps it's a mixture of local Egyptian folklore and Greek reinterpretation, either by Herodotus or by his Greek-speaking local guides. There were Greeks living in Egypt, who, I suppose, spoke Egyptian to varying...
by Paul Derouda
Sun May 26, 2019 4:57 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right
Replies: 18
Views: 1576

Re: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right

The way I see this passage is that Herodotus really visited the place and saw some heaps of bones. I believe him when he says that some of the bones were more frail than others, for reasons that we'll never know (age? exposure to the elements?), but as far as his explanations go, they are complete n...
by Paul Derouda
Sat May 18, 2019 5:11 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: TLGMarathon: Odyssey, resources
Replies: 10
Views: 918

Re: TLGMarathon: Odyssey, resources

There's no mention of the Cambridge "Green and Yellow" commentary on books VI to VIII by Garvie, which I think is particularly good (even if it's slightly older than the rest). On the hand, I would bracket Dawe's book, which is interesting if you're looking for an analytical dissection of the Odysse...
by Paul Derouda
Sat May 18, 2019 4:58 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: TLGMarathon: Odyssey, resources
Replies: 10
Views: 918

Re: TLGMarathon: Odyssey, resources

You should absolutely add Cunliffe's Lexicon of the Homeric dialect on the list. Available online as well:
http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/cunliffe/#eid=1
by Paul Derouda
Thu May 09, 2019 9:24 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Reading Greek without hurting back and neck
Replies: 16
Views: 1250

Re: Reading Greek without hurting back and neck

I'll probably need a new Herodotus OCT soon, because pages are already falling out. Go to a bookbinder they can do wonders, I've been going to the same bookbinder for binding my unpublished books (when we had bookshelves for our own works rather than drop-boxes) and book repairs since the now manag...
by Paul Derouda
Sun May 05, 2019 1:10 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Reading Greek without hurting back and neck
Replies: 16
Views: 1250

Re: Reading Greek without hurting back and neck

Hello ἑκηβόλος, Do those mounts you picture have a name so I can google? I might use for one or two. I'm still in my thirties, so my back and neck are not too bad yet, my problem is rather that to stay on the right page I have to put my books open face down on the table. That's not so much of a prob...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:13 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Homer in Nature Human Behavior April 8, 2019
Replies: 4
Views: 648

Re: Homer in Nature Human Behavior April 8, 2019

After reading the Odyssey for the first time Iread the Iliad, and after the Iliad, I turned to Hesiod. Each time I noticed a slight change in language, though I couldn’t exactly say what it was. I have no doubt that these differences can be found by statistical analysis. However, I’m rather skeptica...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:13 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Happy Easter!
Replies: 1
Views: 247

Re: Happy Easter!

Will try that tomorrow for a change! In Eastertime I usually stick with Matthäus and (occasionally) Johannes, time to mix up things a bit!
by Paul Derouda
Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:22 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Homer in Nature Human Behavior April 8, 2019
Replies: 4
Views: 648

Re: Homer in Nature Human Behavior April 8, 2019

I don't have access to the article - this kind of thing is interesting, at least as long as one is extremely cautious about the conclusions. Richard Janko did a relative chronology of the early Greek hexameter corpus over 30 years ago, but the problem is that you can't simply put poets from differen...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:04 am
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right
Replies: 18
Views: 1576

Re: Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right

So the same Herodotus who is apparently able to give a detailed description of the building plan of an Egyptian river boat, misrepresents the measures of a city wall by a factor of 10? It doesn't seem convincing. I don't necessarily think he's lying about the wall, some boastful Babylionian probabl...