Search found 2020 matches

by Paul Derouda
Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:34 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 63
Views: 2491

Re: Vacation reading

Will I die, doc? :D No seriously, I knew that’s name you call it. But I don’t remember it being uncomfortable or scary, just weird. I was like wow, that’s what it’s like to see a ghost! I’ve had a sleep paralysis a very few times in my life, and that’s extremely unnice, but I don’t think I had one t...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:39 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 63
Views: 2491

Re: Vacation reading

I don't believe that it's possible to interpret dreams (whether in the Freudian or some magical way), but it is sometimes disturbing how our mind recombines things we've experienced in the day in our dreams in surprising ways. I'm pretty sure you hadn't thought about at that colleague for some time,...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:21 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Trip to Greece - advice?
Replies: 13
Views: 635

Re: Trip to Greece - advice?

Everybody seems to say that Delphi is good idea, with different things to do in the area. Well then...! I suppose we'll take a tour there. Any tips if we want to stay for the night in the region? The cave of Zeus in Naxos sounds nice, but I think it's a bit too far from Athens. But I'll keep that in...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:53 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 63
Views: 2491

Re: Vacation reading

αὐτοκασιγνήτη is a full sister (same mother and father) while κασιγνήτη is any sister, full or half (similarly for ((αὐτο)κασίγνοτος "brother").

Without looking up (thus respecting the casual nature of this thread...) I have a vague recollection that Chantraine connects -κασι- with καί.
by Paul Derouda
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:53 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 63
Views: 2491

Re: Vacation reading

With "deception", I of course meant "disappointment", which Hylander kindly pointed out to me. Déception is disappointment in French...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:58 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 63
Views: 2491

Re: Vacation reading

Rest assured that some of the best parts are still to come - like the swineherd Eumaios, and others, which I’m not going to spoil for you! There’s also the horrible hanging of the slave girls. The very end might be something of a deception, but other than that, the second half is just as good as the...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:34 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294
Replies: 22
Views: 821

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Is this an irrelevant aside, or an example of how young women from more straitlaced cultures than our own were imagined to have discussed sex? I can't tell. I don't think it's irrelevant. But there's the added complication that there's an important proportion of male fantasy in the female character...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:31 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294
Replies: 22
Views: 821

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Richard Janko, in his Cambridge commentary on Iliad 13-16, sees sexual imagery in this and other martial passages. In his note on 290-1 he says, among other things (he also cites many other passages and gives secondary literature): "ὀαριστύς, metaphorically 'battle', originally meant 'courting', 'am...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:16 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294
Replies: 22
Views: 821

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Are you expecting us to understand that a woman against her parent's wishes would have sex (willingly) with men before her wedding? I think it was probably shameful enough to simply be in the company of men. I like Wilson's "got too intimate" which rather deliciously fudges the issue. I was saying ...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:01 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 63
Views: 2491

Re: Vacation reading

I'm not sure I really have a theory, it was more like random observations on how the focus in interactions between characters is on the external and not the internal...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:48 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294
Replies: 22
Views: 821

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Just a quick search, by no means exhaustive, of μίσγω in early hexameter poetry as a simple verb (i.e. without εν φιλοτητι) in the sense "to have sex". IL.9.133 μή ποτε τῆς εὐνῆς ἐπιβήμεναι ἠδὲ μιγῆναι, IL.21.143 πρεσβυτάτη: τῇ γάρ ῥα μίγη ποταμὸς βαθυδίνης. OD.1.73 ἐν σπέσσι γλαφυροῖσι Ποσειδάωνι μ...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:28 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294
Replies: 22
Views: 821

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

In "later usage" a euphemism? I disagree. The word (with or without ἐν φιλότητι) is very common in this sense in Homer, Hesiod, the Hymns, Herodotus, so I really don't know where Hainsworth got the idea that it's a "later usage". The instances in Homer (from Cunliffe's dictionary): 7. In pass., to h...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:11 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: θ.333-342
Replies: 2
Views: 172

Re: θ.333-342

In later antiquity, Homer was often blamed for portraying the gods in less than dignified terms, and this passage is a case in point. I think it's easy to see why these lines would have been censored, say, in a copy destined for school use. I think these lines were there all right in "Homer's" maste...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:28 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294
Replies: 22
Views: 821

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Well, if Homer and the Odyssey is to be taken as evidence, the aoidos does perform to a predominantly male audience. Doesn't the fact that Penelope is in her room when he sings precisely show that she is not part of the intended audience? Her knowing the stories is another thing altogether. I think ...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:46 am
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Trip to Greece - advice?
Replies: 13
Views: 635

Re: Trip to Greece - advice?

Thanks! Some of the places you mention I have already visited - our last visit with family friends in 2010 concentrated on the Peloponnese. On two consecutive days, we split company. First the ladies stayed with the kids while we guys drove to Monemvasia, and the next day we guys were left with the ...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:43 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 63
Views: 2491

Re: Vacation reading

I remember the first time I read ε. I had little very little Greek then, and my progress was very slow. Odysseus was drowning and I was swamped; finally, after a long and mighty struggle, we both got there, to Phaeacia. But difficult as it was, it was also very powerful, and I still have the taste o...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:35 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Trip to Greece - advice?
Replies: 13
Views: 635

Re: Trip to Greece - advice?

Thanks for your tips. Keep them coming! I'm really open to all sorts of ideas, the point is to have a nice holiday for adults and kids alike. Last time I was asking for tips was before going to London - I got many great tips, it's really a shame we had so little time, just one long weekend, and we c...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:24 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Trip to Greece - advice?
Replies: 13
Views: 635

Trip to Greece - advice?

So we're going to Greece for one week with my family (my wife and two kids) in mid-October. It will be the third visit for me. We'll take the plane to Athens, where we intend to spend a couple of days. After that, I suppose we'll rent a car at some stage and drive around and stay in different places...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:20 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294
Replies: 22
Views: 821

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Lines 276-284 are completely beguiling and there's lots to talk about here - what are we to make of the fact that Nausicaa chooses to introduce her own name by means of this 'impersonation'? Isn't it what it's looks like? She is flirting with Odysseus, telling him indirectly that she hasn't found a...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:19 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Homeric psychology
Replies: 18
Views: 903

Re: Homeric psychology

Well, how can feelings not be sincere? In Homer it’s taken for granted that even professed feelings are genuine. What I meant was for example those endless discussions we have on whether apologies were sincere. Or Jeanne Moreau’s wholly unHomeric desperation for no longer loving Marcello. This does...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:28 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Homeric psychology
Replies: 18
Views: 903

Re: Homeric psychology

As I said, I have no ready made theory, I just report what I believe to have observed. We seem to be obsessed about the sincerity of our feelings, about our "true sentiments", which seems to be absent in Homer. We also care a lot about how other people "feel" about what we do or say to them, whereas...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:35 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Homeric psychology
Replies: 18
Views: 903

Re: Homeric psychology

Assuming you don’t exactly mean “just in order” which implies a rather gratuitous provocation, are you saying that Homeric characters always react explicitly and in a concrete way to interactions with other characters? Well, it's not exactly that. This is rather complex and I must confess that I ha...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:42 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Homeric psychology
Replies: 18
Views: 903

Homeric psychology

This is a continuation of the ideas I expressed in this thread: https://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&p=206264#p206264 The exchange until now: It's interesting how often in Homer whenever there is question of how people treat each other, the focus is on outward reactions rathe...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:23 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 63
Views: 2491

Re: Vacation reading

Ah, I found it. Really, no need to thank me! This articles advances a theory that this quarrel points to a different tradition where Menelaus is not the same mild-mannered fellow as we see him in the Iliad, always subordinate to Agamemnon. https://www.academia.edu/5829023/Quarrel_of_Agamemnon_and_Me...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:01 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 63
Views: 2491

Re: Vacation reading

As fun and rewarding as they are, the Iliad and Odyssey have had far more secondary literature written about them than they really deserve, and it makes sense to think of tricks to keep threads text-focused. Funny, I've actually read a scholarly article about the quarrel of Agamemnon and Menelaus, ...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:33 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 63
Views: 2491

Re: Vacation reading

I wonder, however, if Laertes is motivated by not wanting to hurt his wife's feelings? That's a legitimate question, and I can't tell you for sure. There is no doubt that the characters have an interior life, as for example line 420 testifies. But I meant something different: I challenge you to fin...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:02 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 63
Views: 2491

Re: Vacation reading

Maybe I'm being prurient, but what does 433 χολον δ αλεεινε γυναικος mean? I don't recognize αλεεινε. Odysseus avoided the anger of his wife by not sleeping with Eurycleia (εὐνῇ δ᾿ οὔ ποτ᾿ ἔμικτο). It's interesting how often in Homer whenever there is question of how people treat each other, the fo...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:19 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 63
Views: 2491

Re: Vacation reading

No, the point is that the correct procedure for the suitors would be to go to Icarius and have him arrange the marriage.
by Paul Derouda
Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:32 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 63
Views: 2491

Re: Vacation reading

It gives prominence to the small things in life and many of the central characters are women or humble people like slaves, Interesting juxtaposition! :D ps I disagree with what you say about the "Big Questions of Life". The Odyssey is very focussed on Heroism, Honour and Death - the Dead even make ...
by Paul Derouda
Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:56 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 63
Views: 2491

Re: Vacation reading

I never really liked the Odyssey, except for the return. It doesn't have the magic or pathos of the Iliad for me. Being a hobbiest only, I get to choose my own reading, and have avoided it. Your recent threads made me want to give it a chance. The Odyssey is mostly known for Odysseus' wanderings in...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:02 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Can anyone recommend a good old sword-and-sandal movie?
Replies: 13
Views: 1752

Re: Can anyone recommend a good old sword-and-sandal movie?

We watched The Fall of the Roman Empire yesterday. It was better than I remembered, having seen it as a kid. It was more intelligent than most films I’ve seen in the genre. The action -actual stunts, no computers!- was still quite impressive, as were the sets, especially the huge reconstructed Roman...
by Paul Derouda
Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:56 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 3099

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

Seneca: thanks for the precision. My point was indeed not to present that as the conclusion of the paper, but to point out a little weakness in the argument. As I tried to say, whether one accepts the conclusion or not, I found the article very stimulating and definitely recommended reading for anyo...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:29 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 3099

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

I still think that the αιδως here is about dirt and grime rather than nudity. (Paul, what is Finnish etiquette about a sauna right after a workout or backpacking trip? I assume people are supposed to wash themselves off first? And if they are dirty enough, might even be a bit embarrassed about wash...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:17 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 3099

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

If I might borrow from the several examples of Finnish nudity you've offered up (I hope archive.org makes a copy of this thread for future generations) - given the knowledge that it is not seen as 'indecent' for students to run naked through the streets, and the knowledge that it's not indecent to ...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:48 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 3099

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

I think that the comparison with Nestor's daughter isn't quite as you represent it. There is no question of Nausicaa washing Odysseus, she orders her slaves to do it. Although its not explicit presumably Nestor tells Polycaste to wash Telemachus just as Menelaus orders slaves to do the same at Spar...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:49 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 3099

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

I read Jones' article, which has some interesting insights, and his idea that Odysseus is refusing the bath to save Nausicaa's face is attractive. But in the same time I think Jones is not giving proper consideration to the context where the washing takes place. He says: "The conclusion must be that...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:15 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 3099

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

First of all, it’s important to say that I think Seneca is completely right that in British English at least (I can’t speak for American and other usage) “she felt ashamed” and “she felt embarrassed” are often used interchangeably not to refer to two distinct feelings experienced at the same time b...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:25 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 3099

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

I continue to be perplexed by this distinction being made between "embarrassment" and " shame". Perhaps it is simply one of degree? I will continue to read about this and think further as clearly my understanding is wanting.. Shame has a connotation of wrongdoing or of not being up to a standard, w...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:09 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: The Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek
Replies: 29
Views: 6315

Re: The Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek

A review by Mike Aubrey: https://koine-greek.com/2019/05/12/cambridge-grammar-of-classical-greek-first-impressions/?fbclid=IwAR3V-sevPxGCErJ8hUf_epH8oFppBnycsWo84hmYupPqCje8xptQxkLC0lI Can you explain the following in the review you cited. “A minority of NT scholars and students will likely be disa...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:53 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 3099

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

The slaves here seem to tell Odysseus to wash himself thus not obeying the instructions given by Nausicaa. There then follows a totally unnecessary and to my mind disingenuous speech by Odysseus about his shame at being seen naked by the slaves. The text says αἰδέομαι γὰρ / γυμνοῦσθαι κούρῃσιν ἐυπλ...