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by Paul Derouda
Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:18 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plural of modesty?
Replies: 2
Views: 186

Re: Plural of modesty?

Thanks, I'm going to check that out!
by Paul Derouda
Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:16 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Translation or translation?
Replies: 24
Views: 1017

Re: Translation or translation?

Of course I can accept that you prefer to translate in the way you do. I have always argued for plurality. I'll give you that - you have indeed always argued for plurality, defending a minority view valiantly yet politely, even when the cause seems lost. :wink: What bothers me with Wilson is her wa...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:26 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Translation or translation?
Replies: 24
Views: 1017

Re: Translation or translation?

Her view on slavery is not a whim but a considered view shared by other scholars. I have the feeling that you haven't even read what I have written. No one disagrees with her views on slavery (that "handmaids" are actually slaves, that slavery is not a nice thing etc.). What I disagree with are her...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:41 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Translation or translation?
Replies: 24
Views: 1017

Re: Translation or translation?

On slavery I think we can stress too much the importance of her terminology in her overall scheme. She simply wants to jolt people away from the Downton Abbey conception of maids and housekeepers and ladies in waiting. But don't you see that the relationship between servants and masters is idealize...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:19 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Translation or translation?
Replies: 24
Views: 1017

Re: Translation or translation?

I think that Hannink is a welcome counterblast to this rather fixed view of the role of the translator. A literal approach may have its place in the classroom (although Hannink would now doubt this) but it has no place in a literary project. I think you're blurring the distinction between literal a...
by Paul Derouda
Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:39 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plural of modesty?
Replies: 2
Views: 186

Plural of modesty?

There has been some discussion recently on the use of the plural instead of the singular in the first person. Hylander quoted Smyth, according to which there is a sort of "plural of modesty" in Greek. 1008. Plural of Modesty.—A speaker in referring to himself may use the first person plural as a mod...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:55 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: παιδες
Replies: 2
Views: 133

Re: παιδες

Hello!

They are two different words. παίδες is plural of παῖς, παιδίον is a diminutive (neuter) whose plural is παιδία.
by Paul Derouda
Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:03 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Found this a-Musing
Replies: 4
Views: 476

Re: Found this a-Musing

Hmm, where and when did the muses get their names actually? Without checking, I don’t think it was in Hesiod either - and does Hesiod even specify a number? The 9 books of Herodotus were each named after a muse, but I believe that that, along with the book division, dates from Hellenistic times.
by Paul Derouda
Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:47 am
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Sumerian
Replies: 3
Views: 281

Re: Sumerian

“The recovery of the past represents a sheer enrichment of human thought,” he wrote in the foreword to “In the World of Sumer,” Kramer’s 1986 autobiography. “It is a sort of time travel in which, unlike in science fiction in which we encounter generally pitiful creations of an ethnocentric imaginat...
by Paul Derouda
Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:10 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Lysis 219e and Hemlock
Replies: 36
Views: 17017

Re: Lysis 219e and Hemlock

A collegue pointed this out to me, actually. I didn’t have the time to check it out yet. I don’t know which one is more ridiculous - to call an acute poisoning with an agent that blocks neuromuscular junctions a ”polyneuropathy”, as is done in the article that was the original subject of this thread...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:54 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Ordering books online
Replies: 8
Views: 451

Re: Ordering books online

Thanks. I think I'll try Blackwell next time. I was a happy customer at Amazon for many years. Although they do seem to take over everything and I have read some reports that they are not treating their workers very well, it's not so much for "ideological" grounds that I'm trying to avoid them as fo...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:04 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Review of West's Odyssey
Replies: 11
Views: 951

Re: Review of West's Odyssey

Perhaps it will be useful to quote West's reply to Nagy's review of his Iliad here. (http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2001/2001-09-06.html) Even without these fuller explanations, however, my two critics might have taken my point (to which they give short shrift) that when Didymus reports the reading of Ari...
by Paul Derouda
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:36 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Ordering books online
Replies: 8
Views: 451

Ordering books online

Where do you get your books (in Europe)? For over a decade, I have mostly ordered my new books from Amazon. For the last couple of years, however, their packaging quality has collapsed, and more often than not my books are bruised when they arrive. They do take returns, but it requires some effort, ...
by Paul Derouda
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:11 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Review of West's Odyssey
Replies: 11
Views: 951

Re: Review of West's Odyssey

While West's restorations aren't quite as disturbing as, for example, Fick's digammas, perhaps indeed we would be better without them. Whether they are correct or not, it's true that they are rather subjective. The reviewers assert that "To be blunt, the work of Milman Parry makes too little impact ...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:48 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?
Replies: 15
Views: 755

Re: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?

One more thing about whether Herodotus' native speech was Doric or Ionian. Herodotus seem especially interested about Ionians and their dialects, and he clearly knows a great deal about them. I haven't decided whether this means that he was a native Ionian, but I think it's worth noting. Here's 1.14...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:23 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: An extra τῷ
Replies: 6
Views: 488

Re: An extra τῷ

[The sentence appears to be made-up Greek. In real Greek ὁ Ἀλέξανδρος would not come within the ἐπεὶ clause, since he is also the subject of the main clause.] So are you saying that in real Greek, it would go: Ἐπεὶ οὖν ἐν τῷ πολέμῳ τῷ ἐπὶ τοὺς Πέρσας νίκην ἒσχεν, ἐκέλευσε ὁ Ἀλέξανδρος τοὺς στρατιώτ...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:16 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: First post
Replies: 5
Views: 400

Re: First post

Welcome! I see that I've been mentioned here. Here's a link to the thread in question: https://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=68309#p197989. To reiterate my point in short, I didn't do the English to Greek translations in Pharr, and wouldn't recommend them. The rest is more u...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:59 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?
Replies: 15
Views: 755

Re: Hdt.2.6.3 κατακεχύαται plural?, & function of τοιόσδε τις?

But I wonder whether forms in -αται, -ατο in Thucydides might be Ionicisms, like -σσ- where Attic has -ττ-. Until Thucydides, prose history was an Ionic genre. Herodotus chose to write in Ionic for that reason, even though his native speech was probably Doric and he was writing largely for an Athen...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:47 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus
Replies: 13
Views: 1413

Re: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus

I think Odysseus’ parting words to Nausicaa are a reference to his first words to her: when he first saw her and talked to her, he wondered if she was a god. Now that he is saying goodbye, he promises (a bit humorously, I think) to continue addressing her like a god even in his home land. As to why ...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:37 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus
Replies: 13
Views: 1413

Re: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus

Of course, it can be argued that these female characters are presented to show Odysseus' determination - he wants to go home, and nothing can stop or divert him. Likewise, they heighten Penelope's value in contrast.
by Paul Derouda
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:13 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus
Replies: 13
Views: 1413

Re: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus

There's one thing that those who claim that the Odyssey poet was a woman have completely missed. I don't know if modern feminist critics have noticed this. Although the Odyssey has interesting, varied and even psychologically credible female characters, the way some of them are presented (or rather,...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:01 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 3.53 and the sematics of διδαχθεῖσα
Replies: 5
Views: 708

Re: Herodotus 3.53 and the sematics of διδαχθεῖσα

As for Herodotus not giving the name of the daughter: that's more difficult to interpret. The thing is that Herodotus has a way of voluntarily withholding information if he sees fit. For example, a Green & Yellow Cambridge commentary on a later book (I forget which book, and which passage) argues ve...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:49 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 3.53 and the sematics of διδαχθεῖσα
Replies: 5
Views: 708

Re: Herodotus 3.53 and the sematics of διδαχθεῖσα

Thanks for your opinions, that's what my first instinct was as well. I don't think Herodotus ever talks about the Seven Sages, and I don't think Legrand means literally that. I don't believe Legrand is being humorous here. What he means, I think, is that already in Herodotus' time a number of maxims...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:54 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 3.53 and the sematics of διδαχθεῖσα
Replies: 5
Views: 708

Herodotus 3.53 and the sematics of διδαχθεῖσα

3.53.1 ἐπεὶ δὲ τοῦ χρόνου προβαίνοντος ὅ τε Περίανδρος παρηβήκεε καὶ συνεγινώσκετο ἑωυτῷ οὐκέτι εἶναι δυνατὸς τὰ πρήγματα ἐπορᾶν τε καὶ διέπειν, πέμψας ἐς τὴν Κέρκυραν ἀπεκάλεε τὸν Λυκόφρονα ἐπὶ τὴν τυραννίδα· ἐν γὰρ δὴ τῷ πρεσβυτέρῳ τῶν παίδων οὔκων ἐνώρα, ἀλλά οἱ κατεφαίνετο εἶναι νωθέστερος. 3.5...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:33 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus
Replies: 13
Views: 1413

Re: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus

This is indeed psychologically not very convincing. Sure, mores on Scheria are different from other places, but I think this is to show how impressive Odysseus must seem to the Phaeacians. I'm sure analytical and other critics have seen all sorts of problems here. Anyway, I think the main point is t...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:15 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Mimnermus Fr. 10
Replies: 10
Views: 972

Re: Mimnermus Fr. 10

We've actually discussed the semantics of the word ἁρπαλέος in our mail group, in the context of Mimnermus 1: τίς δὲ βίος, τί δὲ τερπνὸν ἄτερ χρυσῆς Ἀφροδίτης; τεθναίην, ὅτε μοι μηκέτι ταῦτα μέλοι, κρυπταδίη φιλότης καὶ μείλιχα δῶρα καὶ εὐνή, οἷ' ἥβης ἄνθεα γίγνεται ἁρπαλέα ἀνδράσιν ἠδὲ γυναιξίν· ἐπ...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:52 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Silent Expurgation
Replies: 17
Views: 2064

Re: Silent Expurgation

I essentially agree with most of what Hylander says here. What I meant is that writing down for the first time an epic like the Iliad with the writing mediums of the time must have been a difficult and time consuming enterprise. While we will never be able tell with certitude how exactly it was redu...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:14 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Mimnermus Fr. 10
Replies: 10
Views: 972

Re: Mimnermus Fr. 10

What I find interesting here are the Aithiopians in the east . Africa was in the south, and in general Aithiopians (with certitude at least from Herodotus onwards) referers to Black Africans. Does this refer to Indians? In the Odyssey, Aithiopians are divided in two, some in the east and some in the...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:07 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Mimnermus Fr. 10
Replies: 10
Views: 972

Re: Mimnermus Fr. 10

εὕδονθ’ ἁρπαλέως "sleeping greedily", i.e. eagerly. Shining all day is a lot of work, so rest is welcome afterwards.
by Paul Derouda
Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:59 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Silent Expurgation
Replies: 17
Views: 2064

Re: Silent Expurgation

I agree with Hylander that, first thing, it's a good idea to get acquainted with the oral composition theory if you want to understand Homer. I suppose that reading my posts one might get the impression that I'm dismissing the whole oral theory, but actually it's rather that I take it for granted. M...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:48 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 6: 160-169
Replies: 6
Views: 1248

Re: Odyssey 6: 160-169

The connection to the tree under which Leto gave birth seems obvious, but surely the poem doesn't mean to imply that Odysseus is older than Apollo and Artemis? He can't mean the same actual tree, I mean. I'd rather think that at the poem's time there would have been some old sacred palm tree at a cu...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:38 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Silent Expurgation
Replies: 17
Views: 2064

Re: Silent Expurgation

Btw, Stanford is not expurgated. I am not sure about Merry's school edition (he has also a scholarly commentary on 1-12 with Riddell), but I think expurgation is unlikely.
by Paul Derouda
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:35 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Trouble with a verse from Homer's Odyssey book VII
Replies: 5
Views: 847

Re: Trouble with a verse from Homer's Odyssey book VII

For shameless dogs, compare for example Iliad 1.225 (Achilles insulting Agamemnon):
οἰνοβαρές, κυνὸς ὄμματ’ ἔχων, κραδίην δ’ ἐλάφοιο
You drunk, you have the eyes of dog and the heart of a deer"

A dog may do anything and look you in the eye while doing it.
by Paul Derouda
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:30 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Trouble with a verse from Homer's Odyssey book VII
Replies: 5
Views: 847

Re: Trouble with a verse from Homer's Odyssey book VII

"Beside the stomach" is the idea, I would say.

The whole Phaeacian episode is one of my favorites in the Odyssey. You're welcome to post any other question!
by Paul Derouda
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:25 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Major Archeological Find
Replies: 1
Views: 668

Re: Major Archeological Find

Hmm. They call it a merchant ship and compare it to the picture of Odysseus' ship on vase, but that would be a war ship, no?
by Paul Derouda
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:18 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Silent Expurgation
Replies: 17
Views: 2064

Re: Silent Expurgation

The problem with you idea, Joel, is that Homer didn't create his characters, or at least not the most important ones. They are traditional, Homer only adapted them. I haven't read Bayfield, but ideas like his are (unfortunately, in my opinion) rather unfashionable today. The late Martin West develop...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:14 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Trouble with a verse from Homer's Odyssey book VII
Replies: 5
Views: 847

Re: Trouble with a verse from Homer's Odyssey book VII

κύντερον is more like "shameless". It means that whatever you do, however you feel, your stomach always reminds you that you should eat and grumbles shamelessly. Dogs are the epitome of shamelessness in Homer. ἐπὶ is a bit strange true, something like "nothing tops the stomach in shamelessness"?
by Paul Derouda
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:05 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 5: Is Calypso trying to kill Odysseus?
Replies: 3
Views: 906

Re: Odyssey 5: Is Calypso trying to kill Odysseus?

I agree: probably d). Beside preparing for the Nausicaa scene, it’s also a realistic touch so typical of Homer that makes this whole episode more vivid. It’s difficult to swin even in modern clothes, not to mention the rectangular pieces of cloth they wore at the time. You can almost feel the taste ...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:56 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: On the Holy Sickness, thymus, aer, and phrenes
Replies: 6
Views: 952

Re: On the Holy Sickness, thymus, aer, and phrenes

Herodotus: τὴν ἱρὴν ὀνομάζουσι τινές seems skeptical to me, even if does leave some ambiguity. It seems to me that it's with phrases of this kind that Herodotus usually expresses skepticism. Besides, the text goes on οὔ νύν τοι ἀεικὲς οὐδὲν ἦν τοῦ σώματος νοῦσον μεγάλην νοσέοντος μηδὲ τὰς φρένας ὑγι...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:52 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: On the Holy Sickness, thymus, aer, and phrenes
Replies: 6
Views: 952

Re: On the Holy Sickness, thymus, aer, and phrenes

I'd say that as far as his observations concerning symptoms are concerned, they are largely correct; it's the explanations that are flawed. It would be pretty amazing if this were not the case! I didn't mean just an obvious description of symptoms, but causal relationships. For example, hyperventil...