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by Paul Derouda
Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:47 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus
Replies: 13
Views: 1039

Re: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus

I think Odysseus’ parting words to Nausicaa are a reference to his first words to her: when he first saw her and talked to her, he wondered if she was a god. Now that he is saying goodbye, he promises (a bit humorously, I think) to continue addressing her like a god even in his home land. As to why ...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:37 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus
Replies: 13
Views: 1039

Re: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus

Of course, it can be argued that these female characters are presented to show Odysseus' determination - he wants to go home, and nothing can stop or divert him. Likewise, they heighten Penelope's value in contrast.
by Paul Derouda
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:13 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus
Replies: 13
Views: 1039

Re: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus

There's one thing that those who claim that the Odyssey poet was a woman have completely missed. I don't know if modern feminist critics have noticed this. Although the Odyssey has interesting, varied and even psychologically credible female characters, the way some of them are presented (or rather,...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:01 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 3.53 and the sematics of διδαχθεῖσα
Replies: 5
Views: 549

Re: Herodotus 3.53 and the sematics of διδαχθεῖσα

As for Herodotus not giving the name of the daughter: that's more difficult to interpret. The thing is that Herodotus has a way of voluntarily withholding information if he sees fit. For example, a Green & Yellow Cambridge commentary on a later book (I forget which book, and which passage) argues ve...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:49 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 3.53 and the sematics of διδαχθεῖσα
Replies: 5
Views: 549

Re: Herodotus 3.53 and the sematics of διδαχθεῖσα

Thanks for your opinions, that's what my first instinct was as well. I don't think Herodotus ever talks about the Seven Sages, and I don't think Legrand means literally that. I don't believe Legrand is being humorous here. What he means, I think, is that already in Herodotus' time a number of maxims...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:54 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 3.53 and the sematics of διδαχθεῖσα
Replies: 5
Views: 549

Herodotus 3.53 and the sematics of διδαχθεῖσα

3.53.1 ἐπεὶ δὲ τοῦ χρόνου προβαίνοντος ὅ τε Περίανδρος παρηβήκεε καὶ συνεγινώσκετο ἑωυτῷ οὐκέτι εἶναι δυνατὸς τὰ πρήγματα ἐπορᾶν τε καὶ διέπειν, πέμψας ἐς τὴν Κέρκυραν ἀπεκάλεε τὸν Λυκόφρονα ἐπὶ τὴν τυραννίδα· ἐν γὰρ δὴ τῷ πρεσβυτέρῳ τῶν παίδων οὔκων ἐνώρα, ἀλλά οἱ κατεφαίνετο εἶναι νωθέστερος. 3.5...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:33 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus
Replies: 13
Views: 1039

Re: Odyssey 7, Alcinous' offer to Odysseus

This is indeed psychologically not very convincing. Sure, mores on Scheria are different from other places, but I think this is to show how impressive Odysseus must seem to the Phaeacians. I'm sure analytical and other critics have seen all sorts of problems here. Anyway, I think the main point is t...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:15 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Mimnermus Fr. 10
Replies: 10
Views: 676

Re: Mimnermus Fr. 10

We've actually discussed the semantics of the word ἁρπαλέος in our mail group, in the context of Mimnermus 1: τίς δὲ βίος, τί δὲ τερπνὸν ἄτερ χρυσῆς Ἀφροδίτης; τεθναίην, ὅτε μοι μηκέτι ταῦτα μέλοι, κρυπταδίη φιλότης καὶ μείλιχα δῶρα καὶ εὐνή, οἷ' ἥβης ἄνθεα γίγνεται ἁρπαλέα ἀνδράσιν ἠδὲ γυναιξίν· ἐπ...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:52 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Silent Expurgation
Replies: 17
Views: 1666

Re: Silent Expurgation

I essentially agree with most of what Hylander says here. What I meant is that writing down for the first time an epic like the Iliad with the writing mediums of the time must have been a difficult and time consuming enterprise. While we will never be able tell with certitude how exactly it was redu...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:14 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Mimnermus Fr. 10
Replies: 10
Views: 676

Re: Mimnermus Fr. 10

What I find interesting here are the Aithiopians in the east . Africa was in the south, and in general Aithiopians (with certitude at least from Herodotus onwards) referers to Black Africans. Does this refer to Indians? In the Odyssey, Aithiopians are divided in two, some in the east and some in the...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:07 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Mimnermus Fr. 10
Replies: 10
Views: 676

Re: Mimnermus Fr. 10

εὕδονθ’ ἁρπαλέως "sleeping greedily", i.e. eagerly. Shining all day is a lot of work, so rest is welcome afterwards.
by Paul Derouda
Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:59 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Silent Expurgation
Replies: 17
Views: 1666

Re: Silent Expurgation

I agree with Hylander that, first thing, it's a good idea to get acquainted with the oral composition theory if you want to understand Homer. I suppose that reading my posts one might get the impression that I'm dismissing the whole oral theory, but actually it's rather that I take it for granted. M...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:48 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 6: 160-169
Replies: 6
Views: 1012

Re: Odyssey 6: 160-169

The connection to the tree under which Leto gave birth seems obvious, but surely the poem doesn't mean to imply that Odysseus is older than Apollo and Artemis? He can't mean the same actual tree, I mean. I'd rather think that at the poem's time there would have been some old sacred palm tree at a cu...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:38 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Silent Expurgation
Replies: 17
Views: 1666

Re: Silent Expurgation

Btw, Stanford is not expurgated. I am not sure about Merry's school edition (he has also a scholarly commentary on 1-12 with Riddell), but I think expurgation is unlikely.
by Paul Derouda
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:35 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Trouble with a verse from Homer's Odyssey book VII
Replies: 5
Views: 663

Re: Trouble with a verse from Homer's Odyssey book VII

For shameless dogs, compare for example Iliad 1.225 (Achilles insulting Agamemnon):
οἰνοβαρές, κυνὸς ὄμματ’ ἔχων, κραδίην δ’ ἐλάφοιο
You drunk, you have the eyes of dog and the heart of a deer"

A dog may do anything and look you in the eye while doing it.
by Paul Derouda
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:30 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Trouble with a verse from Homer's Odyssey book VII
Replies: 5
Views: 663

Re: Trouble with a verse from Homer's Odyssey book VII

"Beside the stomach" is the idea, I would say.

The whole Phaeacian episode is one of my favorites in the Odyssey. You're welcome to post any other question!
by Paul Derouda
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:25 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Major Archeological Find
Replies: 1
Views: 565

Re: Major Archeological Find

Hmm. They call it a merchant ship and compare it to the picture of Odysseus' ship on vase, but that would be a war ship, no?
by Paul Derouda
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:18 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Silent Expurgation
Replies: 17
Views: 1666

Re: Silent Expurgation

The problem with you idea, Joel, is that Homer didn't create his characters, or at least not the most important ones. They are traditional, Homer only adapted them. I haven't read Bayfield, but ideas like his are (unfortunately, in my opinion) rather unfashionable today. The late Martin West develop...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:14 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Trouble with a verse from Homer's Odyssey book VII
Replies: 5
Views: 663

Re: Trouble with a verse from Homer's Odyssey book VII

κύντερον is more like "shameless". It means that whatever you do, however you feel, your stomach always reminds you that you should eat and grumbles shamelessly. Dogs are the epitome of shamelessness in Homer. ἐπὶ is a bit strange true, something like "nothing tops the stomach in shamelessness"?
by Paul Derouda
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:05 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey 5: Is Calypso trying to kill Odysseus?
Replies: 3
Views: 746

Re: Odyssey 5: Is Calypso trying to kill Odysseus?

I agree: probably d). Beside preparing for the Nausicaa scene, it’s also a realistic touch so typical of Homer that makes this whole episode more vivid. It’s difficult to swin even in modern clothes, not to mention the rectangular pieces of cloth they wore at the time. You can almost feel the taste ...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:56 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: On the Holy Sickness, thymus, aer, and phrenes
Replies: 6
Views: 800

Re: On the Holy Sickness, thymus, aer, and phrenes

Herodotus: τὴν ἱρὴν ὀνομάζουσι τινές seems skeptical to me, even if does leave some ambiguity. It seems to me that it's with phrases of this kind that Herodotus usually expresses skepticism. Besides, the text goes on οὔ νύν τοι ἀεικὲς οὐδὲν ἦν τοῦ σώματος νοῦσον μεγάλην νοσέοντος μηδὲ τὰς φρένας ὑγι...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:52 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: On the Holy Sickness, thymus, aer, and phrenes
Replies: 6
Views: 800

Re: On the Holy Sickness, thymus, aer, and phrenes

I'd say that as far as his observations concerning symptoms are concerned, they are largely correct; it's the explanations that are flawed. It would be pretty amazing if this were not the case! I didn't mean just an obvious description of symptoms, but causal relationships. For example, hyperventil...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:56 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: On the Holy Sickness, thymus, aer, and phrenes
Replies: 6
Views: 800

Re: On the Holy Sickness, thymus, aer, and phrenes

I read the text very quickly and rather casually without any commentary a couple of weeks ago. I used the Loeb edition, because I happened to find it on the web. And yes, I did it during a single evening, although I confess I partly skimmed through the part about blood heating and cooling, because i...
by Paul Derouda
Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:23 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: On the Holy Sickness, thymus, aer, and phrenes
Replies: 6
Views: 800

On the Holy Sickness, thymus, aer, and phrenes

I read the Hippocrates' On the Holy Disease the other day, and something reminded of an old discussion about the meaning of the word φρενες in Homer (either "lungs" or, more traditionally, "diaphragm"). Personally, I think that the scholar Richard Janko was right: when φρενες has an anatomical sense...
by Paul Derouda
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:41 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 1.24, Taras, and dolphins
Replies: 2
Views: 719

Re: Herodotus 1.24, Taras, and dolphins

Indeed, I didn't have to look far. This is what How & Wells says: The story of the dolphin is probably connected with a familiar coin type—a hero riding on a dolphin—e. g. Taras at Tarentum (Hill, G. & R. C. 175, Pl. 11); so too Arion on the later coins of Methymna (Head, H. N. 561). At Corinth also...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:51 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus 1.24, Taras, and dolphins
Replies: 2
Views: 719

Herodotus 1.24, Taras, and dolphins

Visiting the Museum Island in Berlin a couple of weeks ago I saw several coins from Taras (southern Italy) with a man riding a dolphin, which immediately brought Herodotus' account of Arion to my mind. In the story, Arion is sailing on a ship when his crew decide to take his money and throw him to t...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:37 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Which are the best commentaries on Herodotus?
Replies: 2
Views: 963

Re: Which are the best commentaries on Herodotus?

Too bad no one has answered you yet. You could check Geoffrey Steadman's site. He has commentaries in PDF format he offers for free. There's a very short introduction on the language and a Greek text with running vocabulary. https://geoffreysteadman.com How and Wells' old commentary is still nice. Y...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:03 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Tyrtaeus Fr. 9
Replies: 16
Views: 1765

Re: Tyrtaeus Fr. 9

It's some time since I last visited Textkit! A couple of comments. ὅντιν’ ἀριστεύοντα "whoever being the best" - ἀριστεύω means, I think, something like "to display military excellence". φάλαγγας τρηχείας - why are the ranks "rough"? I think it is sort of funny - I suppose the idea is that spear poi...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:32 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: how does ἔστιν ὅτε function in this segment from Thucydides
Replies: 1
Views: 828

Re: how does ἔστιν ὅτε function in this segment from Thucydi

ἔστιν ὅτε is a fixed elliptical expression that means approximately "at times", "now and then"; in this particular case, it seems to mean "often". See LSJ ὅτε A.4.2. ὅτε doesn't connect closely with what follows like ὅτε usually does.
by Paul Derouda
Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:36 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Charmides 163B ἐπ᾿ οἰκήματος καθημένῳ
Replies: 7
Views: 1131

Re: Charmides 163B ἐπ᾿ οἰκήματος καθημένῳ

It's true, I didn't even think about the masculine ending, because I was immediately thinking of other places where I've encountered this usage ἐπ᾿ οἰκήματος καθημένῳ (Aeschines beside Herodotus). But prostitutes can be male as well. Re: stews, again. Actually, I now remember about an acquaintance w...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:06 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Charmides 163B ἐπ᾿ οἰκήματος καθημένῳ
Replies: 7
Views: 1131

Re: Charmides 163B ἐπ᾿ οἰκήματος καθημένῳ

Actually, why do we invariably have the preposition ἐπί in ἐπ᾿ οἰκήματος? Why not, say, ἐν?

So Turkish baths are depraved? I've been to Turkey once, but I didn't try their baths.
by Paul Derouda
Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:32 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Charmides 163B ἐπ᾿ οἰκήματος καθημένῳ
Replies: 7
Views: 1131

Re: Charmides 163B ἐπ᾿ οἰκήματος καθημένῳ

By the way, I wonder why public baths ("stews") are so often and in so many places thought of as seats of depravity. If you ever come to Finland, you should definitely go to a sauna, private or public – in this country at least it's not a euphemism for anything else, just sauna!
by Paul Derouda
Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:26 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Charmides 163B ἐπ᾿ οἰκήματος καθημένῳ
Replies: 7
Views: 1131

Re: Charmides 163B ἐπ᾿ οἰκήματος καθημένῳ

Well, it seems to me that ἧμαι and its derivatives often have connotations of inactivity. In this particular case, certainly not sitting at the front desk. I think the women were supposed to sit there passively waiting for men to come and have their way with them. I'm not sure, though, whether the l...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:31 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Earliest text of the Odyssey?
Replies: 17
Views: 2085

Re: Earliest text of the Odyssey?

This thread is getting diverted, but let me add that I liked Simon Pulleyn's (who's made a nice commentary on Iliad 1) comment on Gainsford's post. John Cottingham, the philosopher of religion, makes the point that what people find persuasive in his field study very often has less to do with a proce...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:08 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Earliest text of the Odyssey?
Replies: 17
Views: 2085

Re: Earliest text of the Odyssey?

Sorry, I meant to write "it wasn't aimed at you". I really did! :lol: Here I am laughing at other people's mistakes while making my own.
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:48 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Earliest text of the Odyssey?
Replies: 17
Views: 2085

Re: Earliest text of the Odyssey?

Sorry, I couldn't help the jab about multidimensional space. It was aimed at you; it's whoever wrote the press release that should have done his homework better.
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:45 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Earliest text of the Odyssey?
Replies: 17
Views: 2085

Re: Earliest text of the Odyssey?

Multidimensional space indeed! In the dimension I live in, the earliest surviving Homer manuscripts (on papyrus) are 3rd century BC - but who knows about other dimensions?

The 24 books of the Odyssey are traditionally assigned letters from α to ω, and ξ represents 14.
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:43 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Earliest text of the Odyssey?
Replies: 17
Views: 2085

Re: Earliest text of the Odyssey?

The AFT press release says (https://www.afp.com/en/news/2266/ancient-tablet-odyssey-epic-discovered-greece-doc-17f1fu1): If this date is confirmed, the tablet could be the oldest written record of Homer's work ever discovered" in Greece, a ministry statement said. This might well be true - in Greece...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:27 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Anyone interested in a Greek reading group for the Odyssey
Replies: 9
Views: 2550

Re: Anyone interested in a Greek reading group for the Odyss

I see this reading group hasn't got very far yet... But if anyone of you has started reading, I suggest that you just post your queries here, whether you have a group or not. I'm sure you'll get answers. Altair takes up quite a number of points on the first lines of the poem. Perhaps you could selec...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:03 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Herodotus
Replies: 4
Views: 972

Re: Herodotus

The Cambridge Greek and Latin Classics ("Yellow and Green") series includes several of the later books of Herodotus. These are probably a little beyond your level, but they generally provide a wealth of information, and you might want to challenge yourself: https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?u...