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by Paul Derouda
Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:02 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Can anyone recommend a good old sword-and-sandal movie?
Replies: 10
Views: 1013

Re: Can anyone recommend a good old sword-and-sandal movie?

We watched The Fall of the Roman Empire yesterday. It was better than I remembered, having seen it as a kid. It was more intelligent than most films I’ve seen in the genre. The action -actual stunts, no computers!- was still quite impressive, as were the sets, especially the huge reconstructed Roman...
by Paul Derouda
Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:56 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 1866

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

Seneca: thanks for the precision. My point was indeed not to present that as the conclusion of the paper, but to point out a little weakness in the argument. As I tried to say, whether one accepts the conclusion or not, I found the article very stimulating and definitely recommended reading for anyo...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:29 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 1866

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

I still think that the αιδως here is about dirt and grime rather than nudity. (Paul, what is Finnish etiquette about a sauna right after a workout or backpacking trip? I assume people are supposed to wash themselves off first? And if they are dirty enough, might even be a bit embarrassed about wash...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:17 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 1866

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

If I might borrow from the several examples of Finnish nudity you've offered up (I hope archive.org makes a copy of this thread for future generations) - given the knowledge that it is not seen as 'indecent' for students to run naked through the streets, and the knowledge that it's not indecent to ...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:48 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 1866

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

I think that the comparison with Nestor's daughter isn't quite as you represent it. There is no question of Nausicaa washing Odysseus, she orders her slaves to do it. Although its not explicit presumably Nestor tells Polycaste to wash Telemachus just as Menelaus orders slaves to do the same at Spar...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:49 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 1866

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

I read Jones' article, which has some interesting insights, and his idea that Odysseus is refusing the bath to save Nausicaa's face is attractive. But in the same time I think Jones is not giving proper consideration to the context where the washing takes place. He says: "The conclusion must be that...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:15 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 1866

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

First of all, it’s important to say that I think Seneca is completely right that in British English at least (I can’t speak for American and other usage) “she felt ashamed” and “she felt embarrassed” are often used interchangeably not to refer to two distinct feelings experienced at the same time b...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:25 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 1866

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

I continue to be perplexed by this distinction being made between "embarrassment" and " shame". Perhaps it is simply one of degree? I will continue to read about this and think further as clearly my understanding is wanting.. Shame has a connotation of wrongdoing or of not being up to a standard, w...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:09 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: The Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek
Replies: 29
Views: 5650

Re: The Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek

A review by Mike Aubrey: https://koine-greek.com/2019/05/12/cambridge-grammar-of-classical-greek-first-impressions/?fbclid=IwAR3V-sevPxGCErJ8hUf_epH8oFppBnycsWo84hmYupPqCje8xptQxkLC0lI Can you explain the following in the review you cited. “A minority of NT scholars and students will likely be disa...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:53 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 1866

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

The slaves here seem to tell Odysseus to wash himself thus not obeying the instructions given by Nausicaa. There then follows a totally unnecessary and to my mind disingenuous speech by Odysseus about his shame at being seen naked by the slaves. The text says αἰδέομαι γὰρ / γυμνοῦσθαι κούρῃσιν ἐυπλ...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:13 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 1866

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

Perhaps it worthwhile to note that different cultures have different attitudes to nakedness. Nudity is of course a taboo everywhere, but to what degree varies a lot. The Ancient Greeks apparently didn't think it was a big deal, at least as far as men were concerned. Take for example these bath scene...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:27 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 1866

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

I agree with what mwh says here, except perhaps about Polykaste. Logically thinking, she should be at least 20 years old, if she was born before the Trojan war. In her culture that was probably a bit old for an unmarried woman, though not excessively so (she might also be a child of 10 years max, if...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:41 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Through the Bosphorus in a reed boat
Replies: 3
Views: 581

Re: Through the Bosphorus in a reed boat

Of course, using Herodotus as a "credible" source is now fraught with all kinds of controversy. Indeed – in Herodotus, information and misinformation are promiscuously intermingled. As a source on early Egyptian history he is particularly suspicious. His chronology is a mess and he has no idea abou...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:14 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Through the Bosphorus in a reed boat
Replies: 3
Views: 581

Re: Through the Bosphorus in a reed boat

https://www.dw.com/en/german-stone-age-sailor-to-cross-seas-in-reed-boat/a-49860938 It would be nice if we were provided with the precise reference in Herodotus they set out to prove. But apparently the team is out to prove a number of other theses that at first glance seem somewhat, hmm, original. ...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:19 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 186-210
Replies: 26
Views: 1356

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 186-210

But to me this suggests that, having fed him (6.249), she should ask who he is to avoid being a bad host? In short, no, I don't think it works that way. But I think that it would be untactful from Odysseus if he didn't tell his name at some stage before parting, because only that way he can potenti...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:45 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 141-161
Replies: 11
Views: 1071

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 141-161

Thanks Michael. You provided the evidence for what I suggested about Helen; I was actually precisely thinking about those (Menelaus being destined to Elysium and the fact that Helen had a cult), but I was on cycling vacation with nothing to type with except my phone, so I kept my posts to a minimum ...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:23 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 186-210
Replies: 26
Views: 1356

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 186-210

Impolite because he's a stranger, or because he's naked? Presumably not the former, given Telemachus asks the same question to Mentes/Athena just after he's met him/her (1.170 τίς πόθεν εἰς ἀνδρῶν;), but why does his being naked make it impolite? As for the damage to the poem, I don't buy this give...
by Paul Derouda
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:00 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: TLGMarathon: Homeric Hymns, resources
Replies: 5
Views: 377

Re: TLGMarathon: Homeric Hymns, resources

You ought to be impressed by Hylander; he's very knowledgeable and I'm certain he didn't google it. I'm Finnish myself, but it was he who told me that the Danish language is collapsing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_iixmqSBQw. :D (If you enjoy that, you might like to check the whole thread in qu...
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:30 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 141-161
Replies: 11
Views: 1071

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 141-161

You have the Iliad line wrong, it should be 22.394. But the parallels you found disprove me to a point when I said that praying to a person is not traditional, even if it doesn’t disprove the rest. I wonder if it has any relevance that Hector, the greatest mortal protector of the Trojans, is already...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:28 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 141-161
Replies: 11
Views: 1071

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 141-161

Answer there came none. Some questions I have from this week's passage: Is Odysseus' dilemma at lines 141-144 just because he's naked and salty or, as a stranger in Scheria, would he ask himself the same question fully clothed? What might the consequences be of avoiding proper supplication etiquett...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:19 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140
Replies: 29
Views: 1617

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140

αυτη "female battle cry” - that’s definitely to the point here, I hadn’t thought about it that way before. There is definitely a sense of danger here, Artemis roaming around with her nymphs (as suggested by the preceding simile) should definitely inspire awe in mortals, even a hero like Odysseus. Bu...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:30 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Can anyone recommend a good old sword-and-sandal movie?
Replies: 10
Views: 1013

Re: Can anyone recommend a good old sword-and-sandal movie?

I think Julius Caesar and Trojan horse are definitely worth a try. There's the added difficulty that I need to find the films with Finnish subtitles. I must look into Oedipus Rex and A funny thing happened on the way to the forum as well, if not for the kids, at least for myself... I've seen Ben Hur...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:24 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Can anyone recommend a good old sword-and-sandal movie?
Replies: 10
Views: 1013

Can anyone recommend a good old sword-and-sandal movie?

We often watch older films with my kids (7 and 9 years), because they are less hectic - less violence, less action, more dialogue. Hitchcock (though not Psycho yet!), old French comedies, sword-and-sandal films etc. The problem (my problem, perhaps – it doesn't seem to bother my kids and wife so muc...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:14 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118
Replies: 26
Views: 2118

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118

So, to sum up, κάπρος occurs 15 times in the early hexameter corpus; in 7 instances it refers to a domestic (?) male boar, every time in the context of sacrifice, except once in Hesiod (WD 790, not 690 like I said earlier), where we're dealing with castration. The combination σῦς κάπρος occurs 3 tim...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:50 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118
Replies: 26
Views: 2118

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118

Should we imagine then that Greeks occasionally kept wild boars in captivity, perhaps mostly for sacrificial banquets? I know that wild boars are raised in captivity for example in France for their meat, but I don't know how old the practice is (I don't know much about farmkeeping). I don't know ab...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:20 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118
Replies: 26
Views: 2118

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118

Should we imagine then that Greeks occasionally kept wild boars in captivity, perhaps mostly for sacrificial banquets? I know that wild boars are raised in captivity for example in France for their meat, but I don't know how old the practice is (I don't know much about farmkeeping).
by Paul Derouda
Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:11 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118
Replies: 26
Views: 2118

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118

(Fitzgerald's "chasing the mountain goats" is a grotesque misunderstanding of τερπομένη κάπροισι, "delighting in boars," which she sends against those who displease her. And Sean we can't go defining Homeric words by reference to English translation of them!) Fitzgerald got it wrong. Imagine that. ...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:34 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118
Replies: 26
Views: 2118

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118

My first reaction was the same as mwh's, namely that καπρος/καπριος further defines συς/ὑς as a wild boar. But although I didn't mention it, I actually checked LfgrE, which gives two sub-meanings for καπρος: 1) wild boar, 2) domestic, and cites several examples for the second meaning, all passages b...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:17 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118
Replies: 26
Views: 2118

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118

I think Fitzgerald is just mixing up with Latin and/or other languages. But it's interesting why κάπρος is so often used with together with the word ὗς/σῦς; I have no answer to that. The easiest solution is of course "for metrical reasons", but I wonder if there's more.
by Paul Derouda
Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:09 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92
Replies: 37
Views: 2036

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92

mwh I respect your opinion but I disagree. I don't think its as clear cut as you present it. In the present passage we have "δμώς" which is generally translated as a slave. As there is no evidence in the text (I stand ready to be corrected) that what some call "slaves" were in fact "free people" I ...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:21 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92
Replies: 37
Views: 2036

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92

As I have said before I find this passage amusing and a parody of heroic action. 3.475-481 is a parallel passage describing the departure of Telemachus from Nestor's palace to Sparta. “παῖδες ἐμοί, ἄγε Τηλεμάχῳ καλλίτριχας ἵππους ζεύξαθ᾿ ὑφ᾿ ἅρματ᾿ ἄγοντες, ἵνα πρήσσῃσιν ὁδοῖο.” ὣς ἔφαθ᾿, οἱ δ᾿ ἄρα...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:52 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92
Replies: 37
Views: 2036

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92

I happen to have the first three volumes of Pontani's scholiae. My plan was to learn how to study them, but until now I've had little success and even less time for it. Like Sean, I still at a loss as to what on "earth I'm supposed to do Homeric scholia". But unlike him, I also have physical artefac...
by Paul Derouda
Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:47 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70
Replies: 44
Views: 2686

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70

Here are some translations of 66-67. “So she coaxed, too shy to touch on her hopes for marriage, young warm hopes , in her father’s presence” - Fagles “So she spoke, but she was ashamed to speak of her joyful marriage to her dear father” - Lattimore “She had no word to say of her own wedding, thoug...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:21 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70
Replies: 44
Views: 2686

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70

We don't know what kind of man she's imagining who sets her heart aflutter but from this point we know that her wedding isn't just for propriety's sake. There is love, or at the very least puppy love, at stake too. I think the reader can't help imagining the 'meet cute' once we know this. Whether s...
by Paul Derouda
Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:02 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70
Replies: 44
Views: 2686

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70

seanjonesbw wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:59 pm
perhaps I would benefit from something more academic.
Really, all I meant was that some kind introduction would be helpful before engaging that book.
by Paul Derouda
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:15 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70
Replies: 44
Views: 2686

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70

I believe I also read Nagler's book some years ago on mwh's recommendation. I agree it was an eye-opening book (If I'm thinking about the right book that is :wink:). I think you only need to read like the first half to get the idea, after which it becomes increasingly repetitive and/or hard to follo...
by Paul Derouda
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:46 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Why is the Herodotus Histories Book1 called Clio? doh!
Replies: 3
Views: 435

Re: Why is the Herodotus Histories Book1 called Clio? doh!

The names of the nine Muses first occur in Hesiod's Theogony, lines 76ff. The names were simply taken in order from there and given to Herodotus' books 1 to 9. ἐννέα θυγατέρες μεγάλου Διὸς ἐκγεγαυῖαι, Κλειώ τ᾽ Εὐτέρπη τε Θάλειά τε Μελπομέενη τε Τερψιχόρη τ᾽ Ἐρατώ τε Πολύμνιά τ᾽ Οὐρανίη τε Καλλιόπη θ...
by Paul Derouda
Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:09 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70
Replies: 44
Views: 2686

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70

Syntactically it’s ok, but semantically I don’t know. ἀρα means ”as you would only expect”.
by Paul Derouda
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:39 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70
Replies: 44
Views: 2686

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70

I still don’t quite understand Witte’s idea why the 4th foot needs to be joined to the 5th (thus preventing the bucolic diaresis, if you like). Bucolic diaresis seems to be compatible with the feminine caesura, so what constraints would there be in this verse to make it necessary to join the 4th foo...