<noun1> καὶ <noun2> ἢ <noun3> in Eph.5:3

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<noun1> καὶ <noun2> ἢ <noun3> in Eph.5:3

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:16 am

Πορνεία δὲ καὶ πᾶσα ἀκαθαρσία πλεονεξία μηδὲ ὀνομαζέσθω ἐν ὑμῖν, καθὼς πρέπει ἁγίοις·
I can't follow the logic of the two conjunctions between the nouns here:
● Is the authour saying that two of them are equivalent - and if so which two?
● Why is μηδὲ used instead of a simple μή?
Thou wast not born for death, immortal Bird!
No hungry generations tread thee down;
The voice I hear this passing night was heard
In ancient days by emperor and clown:
(Keats, Ode to a nightingale, 1819).

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Re: <noun1> καὶ <noun2> ἢ <noun3> in Eph.5:3

Post by mwh » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:38 am

These are the questions of an alien. The RSV translates “But immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, …”. If you “can't follow the logic” of that, blame Paul, whose Greek doesn't take kindly to logic-chopping.

μηδε is “not even.” If you can’t understand the thrust of that, God help you.

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Re: <noun1> καὶ <noun2> ἢ <noun3> in Eph.5:3

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:42 am

Yes. The encoded "noun" in those brackets looks alien.
RSV wrote:must not even be named among you
Translation? Is that phrase meaningful in English? I'm glad I can read the Greek.

If read with English syntax in mind, <noun1> and <noun2> or <noun3> the first and second noun might firm a group, eg utensils; knives and forks or chairs must not be taken out of the restaurant. The construction πᾶσα ἀκαθαρσία ἢ πλεονεξία rather than πλεονεξία ἢ πᾶσα ἀκαθαρσία* suggests, however, that πᾶσα should / could also be taken together with πλεονεξία.

The most illogical thing is that this is an epistle for public reading and the authour says don't name, what was just named in the reading. :? Perhaps it means don't go into details - an explanation of terms as Galen says - talking about all the types of immorality.
Thou wast not born for death, immortal Bird!
No hungry generations tread thee down;
The voice I hear this passing night was heard
In ancient days by emperor and clown:
(Keats, Ode to a nightingale, 1819).

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Re: <noun1> καὶ <noun2> ἢ <noun3> in Eph.5:3

Post by jeidsath » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:24 pm

The NIV translation sweeps away all of the little difficulties here.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.

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Re: <noun1> καὶ <noun2> ἢ <noun3> in Eph.5:3

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:37 pm

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Πορνεία δὲ καὶ πᾶσα ἀκαθαρσία πλεονεξία μηδὲ ὀνομαζέσθω ἐν ὑμῖν, καθὼς πρέπει ἁγίοις·
I can't follow the logic of the two conjunctions between the nouns here:
● Is the authour saying that two of them are equivalent - and if so which two?
● Why is μηδὲ used instead of a simple μή?
You need to stop overthinking things. If anything, πλεονεξία is a specific example of ἀκαθαρσία. Why does Paul point out πλεονεξία? Remember that these are letters responding to particular issues, and I think also a partial explanation of why at times the writer's logic can be difficult to parse. If Paul wants to equate two ideas, he's perfectly capable of doing so -- Col. 3:5 καὶ τὴν πλεονεξίαν, ἥτις ἐστὶν εἰδωλολατρία...
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

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Re: <noun1> καὶ <noun2> ἢ <noun3> in Eph.5:3

Post by dikaiopolis » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:59 pm

mwh wrote:blame Paul
better "Paul" than Paul

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Re: <noun1> καὶ <noun2> ἢ <noun3> in Eph.5:3

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:36 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:You need to stop overthinking things.
I overlooked the pattern till I memorised it, if over-observing is what is meant by overthinking.

Seeing as the authour uses this same pattern in the next phrase (verse 4), it seems to be a deliberate (probably intended to have significance or at least logic) pattern with a meaning.
καὶ αἰσχρότης, καὶ μωρολογία, ἢ εὐτραπελία, τὰ οὐκ ἀνήκοντα· ἀλλὰ μᾶλλον εὐχαριστία.
Thou wast not born for death, immortal Bird!
No hungry generations tread thee down;
The voice I hear this passing night was heard
In ancient days by emperor and clown:
(Keats, Ode to a nightingale, 1819).

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Re: <noun1> καὶ <noun2> ἢ <noun3> in Eph.5:3

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:22 pm

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Πορνεία δὲ καὶ πᾶσα ἀκαθαρσία πλεονεξία μηδὲ ὀνομαζέσθω ἐν ὑμῖν, καθὼς πρέπει ἁγίοις·
I can't follow the logic of the two conjunctions between the nouns here:
● Is the authour saying that two of them are equivalent - and if so which two?
Why is μηδὲ used instead of a simple μή?
Moulton-Turner, BDF, don't mention Eph.5:3. Harold Hoehner (Ephesians 2002, p653, fn3) tags μηδὲ "Ascensive" with references to Wallace and A. T. Roberton p1173. Wallace [1] is followed by William J. Larkin in Baylor Handbook Ephesians.


[1]
I. Logical Conjunctions

These conjunctions relate the movement of thought from one passage to another by expressing logical relationships between the connected ideas. For the most part, coordinate conjunctions are used here.

A. Ascensive Conjunctions [even]

1. Definition

This use expresses a final addition or point of focus. It is often translated even. This classification is usually determined by the context. Conjunctions that function this way are καί, δέ, and μηδέ.

Wallace, p671
C. Stirling Bartholomew

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Re: <noun1> καὶ <noun2> ἢ <noun3> in Eph.5:3

Post by Hylander » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:09 pm

I don't see how μηδε in this passage can possibly be shoehorned into the definition of an "ascensive" conjunction, as set forth in the previous post. It applies only to the single verb ὀνομαζέσθω, and doesn't culminate the preceding series of nouns, and in fact it's used as an adverb here, not as a conjunction. "Let neither X nor Y even so much as be mentioned by name among you . . . "

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