Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

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Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:13 pm

dikaiopolis recommended that I go through Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens textbook, and I thought that I'd give it a try. There are no notes, so I'll attempt them without. I'll point out when I use a dictionary.

Xen. Ana. 4.7.21-25
καὶ ἀφικνοῦνται ἐπὶ τὸ ὄρος τῇ πέμπτῃ ἡμέρᾳ· ὄνομα δὲ τῷ ὄρει ἦν Θήχης. ἐπεὶ δὲ οἱ πρῶτοι ἐγένοντο ἐπὶ τοῦ ὄρους καὶ κατεῖδον τὴν θάλατταν, κραυγὴ πολλὴ ἐγένετο. ἀκούσας δὲ ὁ Ξενοφῶν καὶ οἱ ὀπισθοφύλακες ᾠήθησαν ἔμπροσθεν ἄλλους ἐπιτίθεσθαι πολεμίους· εἵποντο γὰρ ὄπισθεν ἐκ τῆς καιομένης χώρας, καὶ αὐτῶν οἱ ὀπισθοφύλακες ἀπέκτεινάν τέ τινας καὶ ἐζώγρησαν ἐνέδραν ποιησάμενοι, καὶ γέρρα ἔλαβον δασειῶν βοῶν ὠμοβόεια ἀμφὶ τὰ εἴκοσιν. ἐπειδὴ δὲ βοὴ πλείων τε ἐγίγνετο καὶ ἐγγύτερον καὶ οἱ ἀεὶ ἐπιόντες ἔθεον δρόμῳ ἐπὶ τοὺς ἀεὶ βοῶντας καὶ πολλῷ μείζων ἐγίγνετο ἡ βοὴ ὅσῳ δὴ πλείους ἐγίγνοντο, ἐδόκει δὴ μεῖζόν τι εἶναι τῷ Ξενοφῶντι, καὶ ἀναβὰς ἐφ’ ἵππον καὶ Λύκιον καὶ τοὺς ἱππέας ἀναλαβὼν παρεβοήθει· καὶ τάχα δὴ ἀκούουσι βοώντων τῶν στρατιωτῶν Θάλαττα θάλαττα καὶ παρεγγυώντων. ἔνθα δὴ ἔθεον πάντες καὶ οἱ ὀπισθοφύλακες, καὶ τὰ ὑποζύγια ἠλαύνετο καὶ οἱ ἵπποι. ἐπεὶ δὲ ἀφίκοντο πάντες ἐπὶ τὸ ἄκρον, ἐνταῦθα δὴ περιέβαλλον ἀλλήλους καὶ στρατηγοὺς καὶ λοχαγοὺς δακρύοντες. καὶ ἐξαπίνης ὅτου δὴ παρεγγυήσαντος οἱ στρατιῶται φέρουσι λίθους καὶ ποιοῦσι κολωνὸν μέγαν.
And on the fifth day they were arriving [present-tense] on the mountain. Theches was the name of the mountain. And after the first troops came to be upon the mountain and they saw the sea, a great cry went up. Xenophon heard it and the rearguard thought that other enemies were attacking in the front, for they were followed from behind out of the burned countryside. And the rearguard had set up an ambush and had both killed and captured some of these, and took about twenty rawhide shields made from shaggy skins. But then more people and closer took up the cry and constantly the ones going up took up running at top speed after those continuing to cry and the cry became much [πολλῷ - or does he mean more people?] louder with so many more people having come. And to Xenophon it seemed that something major was happening, and he mounted his horse and after gathering Lukius and his horses, went to help. And quickly they heard the soldiers crying "the sea the sea" and crowding in. And then the entire rearguard took up the run, and the pack animals and the horse were driven on. And after all had come up on the top, they were hugging each other and the generals and the captains were crying. And appearing from somewhere nearby the soldiers were carrying [present-tense] rocks and they set up a huge column.

Dictionary:

ἐπὶ for accusative v. genitive. The difference really seems to be motion v. rest here.
ἐπιτίθημι - verified that the middle was the sense "attack" and that ἐπιτίθεσθαι wasn't passive
ἐνέδρα - ambush (I should have known this one)
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by mwh » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:41 am

Joel, Not bad, but you have rather too many unforced errors here. A few notes (selective).

ἀκούσας δὲ ὁ Ξενοφῶν καὶ οἱ ὀπισθοφύλακες ᾠήθησαν ἔμπροσθεν ἄλλους ἐπιτίθεσθαι πολεμίους·
Casual writing. ακουσας applying to Xen but then its reference is expanded when he adds the rearguard.

εἵποντο γὰρ ὄπισθεν ἐκ τῆς καιομένης χώρας
Not “they were followed,” επομαι is not passive. They (the enemy) were following behind. Now they think there’s other enemy ahead of them.

πολλῷ μείζων ἐγίγνετο ἡ βοὴ ὅσῳ δὴ πλείους ἐγίγνοντο
πολλω just “much,” yes (lit. greater by much), but ὅσῳ δὴ πλείους ἐγίγνοντο not “with so many more people having come”; lit. “by how much there were more.” As their number increased, the yelling became correspondingly greater. Very neat in Greek, difficult in English. The two αειs are hard to translate too.

τοὺς ἱππέας not “his horses”!

ἀκούουσι Note switch to vivid present.

ενταῦθα δὴ περιέβαλλον ἀλλήλους καὶ στρατηγοὺς καὶ λοχαγοὺς δακρύοντες.
Not “they were hugging each other and the generals and the captains were crying”! Very careless.

ὅτου δὴ παρεγγυήσαντος. Cannot mean “appearing from somewhere nearby.” Look up the verb (2nd occurrence) and see if you can figure out οτου and the construction.

Note the contribution of the various δη’s.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Thanks.
ενταῦθα δὴ περιέβαλλον ἀλλήλους καὶ στρατηγοὺς καὶ λοχαγοὺς δακρύοντες.
Not “they were hugging each other and the generals and the captains were crying”! Very careless.
Yes, I'm not sure how I mistook the accusatives for nominatives.
ὅτου δὴ παρεγγυήσαντος. Cannot mean “appearing from somewhere nearby.” Look up the verb (2nd occurrence) and see if you can figure out οτου and the construction.
Yes, I see, after looking it up. ἐγγυάω turns out not to mean anything like ἐγγύς. In the first case "βοώντων τῶν στρατιωτῶν Θάλαττα θάλαττα καὶ παρεγγυώντων", the soldiers were passing the word. In the second "ὅτου δὴ παρεγγυήσαντος", someone having given the word.
Note the contribution of the various δη’s.
Are they all acting as emphasis markers here? It feels like they are making the statements more forceful and emotional.
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:40 pm

Euripides Hecuba 531 - 549

ΤΑΛΘΥΒΙΟΣ

κἀγὼ καταστὰς εἶπον ἐν μέσοις τάδε·
Σιγᾶτ’, Ἀχαιοί, σῖγα πᾶς ἔστω λεώς,
σίγα σιώπα. νήνεμον δ’ ἔστησ’ ὄχλον.
ὁ δ’ εἶπεν· Ὦ παῖ Πηλέως, πατὴρ δ’ ἐμός,
δέξαι χοάς μοι τάσδε κηλητηρίους, (535)
νεκρῶν ἀγωγούς· ἐλθὲ δ’, ὡς πίηις μέλαν
κόρης ἀκραιφνὲς αἶμ’ ὅ σοι δωρούμεθα
στρατός τε κἀγώ· πρευμενὴς δ’ ἡμῖν γενοῦ
λῦσαί τε πρύμνας καὶ χαλινωτήρια
νεῶν δὸς ἡμῖν †πρευμενοῦς† τ’ ἀπ’ Ἰλίου (540)
νόστου τυχόντας πάντας ἐς πάτραν μολεῖν.
τοσαῦτ’ ἔλεξε, πᾶς δ’ ἐπηύξατο στρατός.
εἶτ’ ἀμφίχρυσον φάσγανον κώπης λαβὼν
ἐξεῖλκε κολεοῦ, λογάσι δ’ Ἀργείων στρατοῦ
νεανίαις ἔνευσε παρθένον λαβεῖν. (545)
ἡ δ’, ὡς ἐφράσθη, τόνδ’ ἐσήμηνεν λόγον·
Ὦ τὴν ἐμὴν πέρσαντες Ἀργεῖοι πόλιν,
ἑκοῦσα θνήισκω· μή τις ἅψηται χροὸς
τοὐμοῦ· παρέξω γὰρ δέρην εὐκαρδίως.

Talthybios [one of the attendants of Agamemnon?]

And I having stood up was saying the following in the middle of them:
Be silent, Achaeans, Let the whole people be silent,
Be silently silent. The crowd stood in good order.
He spoke: Child of Peleus, my father,
receive <words I don't know>
leading the dead. Come, so that you may drink the black
freshly spilled (?) blood of the girl which we give to you,
the army and myself. Provide a good wind (?) for us
and loosen the prows and the anchors (?)
of the ships, give us good winds out of Ilias
of homecoming, all having chanced to blow to the fatherland.
Such he said, and the whole army prayed for it.
Then taking the gold-wrapped sword <κώπης ? noun or adj.?>
he drew it from his scabbard. And he directed the young male captains
of the army of the Argives to take the virgin.
And she spoke thus and signaled this speech:
You Argives having sacked my city,
I die willingly. Let no one lay hold of my skin,
For I present my body with good heart.
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Now I'm looking up the words that I didn't know in the LSJ after the fact:

δέξαι χοάς μοι τάσδε κηλητηρίους,
νεκρῶν ἀγωγούς·

receive these appeasing drink offerings that lead the dead

χοή - drink offering
κηλητήριος - charming/appeasing
ἀκραιφνής - unmixed/pure
πρευμενὴς - gentle/favorable
χαλινωτήρια - mooring cables
κώπη - handle
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by mwh » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:51 pm

You can look up Talthybius.

σιγα σιωπα both imperative.

νήνεμον δ’ ἔστησ’ ὄχλον. οχλος is masc.!

ἀπ’ Ἰλίου Ilius or Ilium. Ilias is the Iliad.

νόστου dep. on τυχοντας.

ἅψηται touch

παρέξω tense?!

Just a small selection.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by dikaiopolis » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:15 am

Joel, this is good. A few notes to add to Michael’s:

ἔστησ’: 1st person here

πρευμενὴς δ’ ἡμῖν γενοῦ
λῦσαί τε πρύμνας καὶ χαλινωτήρια
νεῶν δὸς ἡμῖν †πρευμενοῦς† τ’ ἀπ’ Ἰλίου (540)
νόστου τυχόντας πάντας ἐς πάτραν μολεῖν.: Your syntax is a little off here. Should we take λῦσαι as an inf. or impv.? And “blow to the fatherland?”

λογάσι δ’ Ἀργείων στρατοῦ/νεανίαις: λογάς (chosen)

ὡς ἐφράσθη: not “she spoke thus”

Too bad it stops here. The next lines are great.

For these short dramatic passages, it might not be a bad idea to read a quick plot summary (I like the introductions to Kovacs’ LCL volumes, or in the Grene/Lattimore Euripides, or just Wikipedia) if you don’t have time to read the whole play.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:24 am

Thanks to both of you. Your notes and the LSJ clears up most of my issues, I think. However, this section remains difficult, even with the help.
πρευμενὴς δ’ ἡμῖν γενοῦ
λῦσαί τε πρύμνας καὶ χαλινωτήρια
νεῶν δὸς ἡμῖν †πρευμενοῦς† τ’ ἀπ’ Ἰλίου (540)
νόστου τυχόντας πάντας ἐς πάτραν μολεῖν.
λῦσαί must be infinitive, because there would need to be a connective word near δὸς otherwise. It took me a very long time staring at this to realize λῦσαι δὸς ἡμῖν was "give us to loose". Now it's obvious.

Become gentle to us, give to us to loose the prows and mooring-cables of our ships and for all to go to their fatherland having made a favorable homecoming.

There still seems to be something wrong with this, because πρευμενοῦς is not an adverb, and should not be modifying νόστου. Related question: What does "s.v.l." mean in the LSJ?
2. of events, favourable, κατελθὼν . . πρευμενεῖ τύχῃ Id.Ag.1647; τελευτὰς . . πρευμενεῖς κτίσειεν Id.Supp.140 (lyr.); πρευμενοῦς . . νόστου τυχόντας E.Hec.540 (s.v.l.).
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by anphph » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:02 pm

jeidsath wrote:There still seems to be something wrong with this, because πρευμενοῦς is not an adverb, and should not be modifying νόστου.
πρευμενοῦς is adjective (in the genitive), modifying νόστος. It's in the genitive because that's what tuxein governs.

N πρευμενὴς νόστος
G πρευμενοῦς νόστου

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:24 pm

πρευμενοῦς is adjective (in the genitive), modifying νόστος.
Got it. I don't know how I missed that. On the first read-throughs, I think that I just really wanted it to be accusative to fit with δός, and didn't rethink that even after I realized that λῦσαι was the object of δός.
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Aetos » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:41 pm

jeidsath wrote:What does "s.v.l." mean in the LSJ
s.v.l. = si vera lectio (I looked it up). Literally, "if the reading is true". I notice that πρευμενοῦς is enclosed by daggers, so I suspect its placement in this line is not certain.
My hard copy of the Intermediate Lexicon does not have the abbreviation listed, so I went to Perseus and "rechunked" the text to show the front matter of the full LSJ.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:35 pm

Demosthenes, against Timocrates (24) 139-141.

Per Michael, I've attempted to read this a few more times, and with a slower initial pace, before attempting the translation. I agree with him that being able to read accurately is the proper goal, not translating. But I don't know of another way other than translating to allow you all to correct my errors.

This was another fairly easy one, so I guessed at words rather than looking anything up.
Βούλομαι δ’ ὑμῖν, ὦ ἄνδρες δικασταί, ἐν Λοκροῖς ὡς νομοθετοῦσι διηγήσασθαι· οὐδὲν γὰρ χείρους ἔσεσθε παράδειγμά τι ἀκηκοότες, ἄλλως τε καὶ ᾧ πόλις εὐνομουμένη χρῆται. ἐκεῖ γὰρ οὕτως οἴονται δεῖν τοῖς πάλαι κειμένοις χρῆσθαι νόμοις καὶ τὰ πάτρια περιστέλλειν καὶ μὴ πρὸς τὰς βουλήσεις μηδὲ πρὸς τὰς διαδύσεις τῶν ἀδικημάτων νομοθετεῖσθαι, ὥστ’ ἄν τις βούληται νόμον καινὸν τιθέναι, ἐν βρόχῳ τὸν τράχηλον ἔχων νομοθετεῖ, καὶ ἐὰν μὲν δόξῃ καλὸς καὶ χρήσιμος εἶναι ὁ νόμος, ζῇ ὁ τιθεὶς καὶ ἀπέρχεται, εἰ δὲ μή, τέθνηκεν ἐπισπασθέντος τοῦ βρόχου. καὶ γάρ τοι καινοὺς μὲν οὐ τολμῶσι τίθεσθαι, τοῖς δὲ πάλαι κειμένοις ἀκριβῶς χρῶνται. καὶ ἐν πολλοῖς δὲ πάνυ ἔτεσιν, ὦ ἄνδρες δικασταί, εἷς λέγεται παρ’ αὐτοῖς νόμος καινὸς τεθῆναι. ὄντος γὰρ αὐτόθι νόμου, ἐάν τις ὀφθαλμὸν ἐκκόψῃ, ἀντεκκόψαι παρασχεῖν τὸν ἑαυτοῦ, καὶ οὐ χρημάτων τιμήσεως οὐδεμιᾶς, ἀπειλῆσαί τις λέγεται ἐχθρὸς ἐχθρῷ ἕν’ ἔχοντι ὀφθαλμὸν ὅτι αὐτοῦ ἐκκόψει τοῦτον τὸν ἕνα. γενομένης δὲ ταύτης τῆς ἀπειλῆς χαλεπῶς ἐνεγκὼν ὁ ἑτερόφθαλμος, καὶ ἡγούμενος ἀβίωτον αὑτῷ [εἶναι] τὸν βίον τοῦτο παθόντι, λέγεται τολμῆσαι νόμον εἰσενεγκεῖν, ἐάν τις ἕνα ἔχοντος ὀφθαλμὸν ἐκκόψῃ, ἄμφω ἀντεκκόψαι παρασχεῖν, ἵνα τῇ ἴσῃ συμφορᾷ ἀμφότεροι χρῶνται. καὶ τοῦτον μόνον λέγονται Λοκροὶ θέσθαι τὸν νόμον ἐν πλεῖν ἢ διακοσίοις ἔτεσιν.
And I wish to relate to you, gentlemen lawgivers, how they make the laws among the Lokroi. You won't be any worse off for hearing an example, especially not if it is something done by a well-governed city. For there, thinking as they do that they need to live by the laws set down in olden times and to live according to (?) their inheritance, and to not create laws according to the wishes or according to the machinations (?) of lawbreakers, whenever someone wishes to create a new law, he proposes the law holding his neck in a stock (?). And if the law appears to be good and useful, the lawgiver lives and goes away. But if not, the stock being pressed together (?), he dies. And since really they do not dare to set new laws, the laws of olden times are used exactly [as set down]. And in very many years, gentlemen lawgivers, one new law is said to have been created for them. For there is a law there, if a man cuts out an eye, he is required to have an eye of his own cut out, and is not penalized any money at all. A certain enemy is said to have threatened an enemy having one eye that he would cut out the one eye from him. This threat having come about, the [formerly] one-eyed man bore it hard, and thinking that life was unlivable for him having suffered this, he is said to have braved to set forth a new law: If anyone cuts out the only eye of a man, he is required to have both his eyes cut out in return, so that both endure the same misfortune. And the Lokroi say this is the only law to be created in more than two hundred years.

τὰ πάτρια περιστέλλειν - live according to their inheritance ?
διαδύσεις (διαδύσ- what ending in nom.?)- "according to the machinations" (I recognize δυς in there)
βρόχῳ from βρόχος - stock ?
ἐπισπασθέντος (ἐπισπασω ?) - something you do with a βρόχος to kill someone
* τιμήσεως - this looks like an adverb? But seems to make sense as a perfect participle. I probably need to check my accidence.
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by mwh » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:06 am

First can we stay with the Euripides for a moment, that πρευμενοῦς passage?
… πρευμενὴς δ’ ἡμῖν γενοῦ
λῦσαί τε πρύμνας καὶ χαλινωτήρια
νεῶν δὸς ἡμῖν †πρευμενοῦς† τ’ ἀπ’ Ἰλίου
νόστου τυχόντας πάντας ἐς πάτραν μολεῖν.
Do we all see how it goes? Both τε’s (postpositive, of course) mean “and.” The first connects the two imperative clauses, γενου and δος, while the second, after πρευμενους, connects the two infinitives that depend on δος, λῦσαι and μολειν. The switch from dat. ημιν to the acc. (τυχοντας παντας) is unexceptional, with τε intervening.
As for πρευμενοῦς, the objection to it is not the repetition as such but rather the syntactical imbalance between the two occurrences of the word. It’s indefensible. Hylander’s ευμενοῦς is too close to it, intolerable after the πρευμενὴς γενοῦ invocation of Achilles. Diggle in the OCT reports Heimsoeth’s ευμαροῦς, which seems as good a guess as we’re likely to get.

Incidentally, was anyone surprised to find that the sacrificial victim is not Iphigeneia?


OK, moving on to the new passage (unless anyone wants to come back on this). Joel, τιμήσεως ought not to look like an adverb to you, especially with ουδεμιᾶς directly following it.

The rest I’ll leave to others.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:25 am

It takes a lot of time to go through your translation and correct your errors, but here we go:

ἄνδρες δικασταί -- more like 'gentlemen of the jury"

ᾧ πόλις εὐνομουμένη χρῆται -- better "[a model] that a well-governed city observes"

περιστέλλειν -- "cherish", see LSJ.

τὰ πάτρια περιστέλλειν -- "to cherish ancestral customs/laws"

μὴ πρὸς τὰς βουλήσεις μηδὲ πρὸς τὰς διαδύσεις τῶν ἀδικημάτων νομοθετεῖσθαι -- I think the idea is to "legislate neither to achieve results desired in the short term nor to allow evasions of responsibility for illegalities"

βρόχος -- "noose"; once you read OT you won't forget this word. I couldn't find this word in the on-line LSJ. You need to equip yourself with a print dictionary, specifically, the Intermediate Liddell & Scott, as the on-line LSJ is very inadequate.

ἐπισπασθέντος -- from ἐπισπάω, "yank".

τοῖς δὲ πάλαι κειμένοις ἀκριβῶς χρῶνται -- "they observe those that were enacted long ago [and remain on the books] punctilliously". Not sure whether you understood the syntax: χρῶνται is middle, "they observe", τοῖς δὲ πάλαι κειμένοις is the dative complement of χρῶνται.

εἷς λέγεται παρ’ αὐτοῖς νόμος καινὸς τεθῆναι -- "one new law is said to have been enacted among them"; παρ’ αὐτοῖς is not "for them" but rather something like "among them", "in their community".

ὄντος γὰρ αὐτόθι νόμου, -- a genitive absolute. You didn't translate it as such, so I can't tell whether you understood the syntax.

τιμήσεως -- gen. of τιμησις, "assessment of monetary indemnification for injury". The idea is that instead of an assessment monetary compensation for the loss of an eye, the tortfeasor must furnish his own eye to be knocked or cut out. Genitive of price or value. You could have found this easily in a print dictionary, and you should have recognized this as an ι stem genitive to begin with.

ἐκκόψῃ -- probably better "strike/knock out" than "cut out".

ἀντεκκόψαι παρασχεῖν τὸν ἑαυτοῦ -- he must furnish/offer his own eye to be stricken out in compensation/reciprocity [ἀντ-]". Not sure from your loose translation whether you understood this.

ἀπειλῆσαί τις λέγεται ἐχθρὸς ἐχθρῷ -- better "a certain man is said to have threatened his enemy". ἐχθρὸς ἐχθρῷ is idiomatic Greek but can't be translated literally in English.

"the [formerly] one-eyed man" -- why formerly?

braved? Why not just dared?

χαλεπῶς ἐνεγκὼν -- this idiom means something like "getting angry".

νόμον εἰσενεγκεῖν -- propose a law

ἐάν τις ἕνα ἔχοντος ὀφθαλμὸν ἐκκόψῃ -- "if anyone should strike out the eye of someone/a man having only one eye". Your translation, "If anyone cuts out the only eye of a man" suggests that you didn't work out the syntax.

λέγονται Λοκροὶ θέσθαι τὸν νόμον -- No! Not "the Locrians say this is the only law to have been enacted". Instead "the Locrians are said to have enacted only this law". λέγονται is passive; θέσθαι is aorist middle, not passive. Aorist passive infinitive of τιθημι is τεθῆναι. I don't want to be captious, but this is another example of a tendency to write what you think the Greek words mean without paying attention to how they fit together, which mwh mentioned.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:40 am

From the previous passage:

νήνεμον δ’ ἔστησ’ ὄχλον -- ἔστησ’ is transitive. νήνεμον ὄχλον are masculine accusative. I'm not sure you figured out how phrase works.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:20 am

I appreciate your having taken that time, and also everybody else who does. I meant "make possible" in the earlier post. I realize now that "allow" could seem to imply "permit" (which wasn't meant). I'm sorry if that came off as rude. Also, I can adjust anything that I'm doing here, though it has been fun to attack these pieces without a dictionary, and really think through them.

I'll try to stick a bit closer to the Greek syntax in the next exercise. But I appreciate the comments even where they confirm what I already thought. And of course the ones where I've misunderstood something.
"the [formerly] one-eyed man" -- why formerly?
I think this reveals what may be my biggest mistake in this exercise: "γενομένης δὲ ταύτης τῆς ἀπειλῆς"

I thought this meant that the threat was carried about. But from your comment it just means that the threat was made? The story works better if he is asking the city to make the law to protect him rather than for revenge.

These are the same Lokroi as in Pindar, right? I noticed them by chance on the map this afternoon, on the boot heel of Italy. It was Epizephyrian Locris on the map, and Ζεφύριοι Λοκροί in Pindar. This seems like a suitably far away place for Demosthenes' unlikely story. But is that to distinguish them from other Λοκροί?
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:53 pm

Don't try doing these exercises without a dictionary if you want others to correct you. You make too many mistakes, and it takes more time and effort to correct you.

As for your biggest mistake, it was the last sentence of the excerpt. You got the syntax completely wrong. It's not a difficult sentence, but you didn't pay attention to the verb-forms, which you should have recognized.

Again, if you're not absolutely sure of a noun- or verb-form, look it up. Don't expect others to do your work for you. Yes, these are supposed to be sight-translations, but it's just not fair to those who undertake to correct you -- who are not getting paid for their time and efforts, after all -- to present the results of a half-baked translation for correction when you could do more work on your own. I don't see how sight-translation is of much use to you, either. You'll learn more by looking up words in the dictionary and grammatical forms than by having someone else tell you what they are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locris

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by dikaiopolis » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:33 pm

Joel, I think you’re doing quite well with these in general. The passages are fun. As for receiving comments on Textkit, would it make sense for you to produce two versions, your unseen translation like you’ve done (no resources) plus a self-corrected version (after consulting a lexicon, grammars, maybe a translation if you’re stumped)? That way, the forum discussion could focus on any outstanding difficulties or interesting features of the passage (e.g., the πρευμενοῦς issue from the Hekabe). You’ll get the benefits of unseen translation—forcing yourself to work out vocabulary and syntax without constantly relying on a dictionary or grammar, reading a broad selection of Greek literature, improving your ability to figure out the sense of a passage based on context—without being overly dependent on help from others.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:43 pm

Joel, you have a tendency to disregard noun and verb forms. This is not a problem where the meaning of the Greek is obvious, but where you need to understand how the Greek fits together in order to get at the meaning, you sometimes miss the mark.

The last sentence in your translation of the passage from Demosthenes is an example. You actually know that λέγονται is passive because you translated λέγεται as passive earlier, and you know all the other Greek words, too. But it looks as if you simply looked at the Greek words and strung together English words with the same meanings, without thinking about the forms of the words or how they fit together.

I think you need to work on this. Translating at sight, without looking up words you don't know and without focusing on noun and verb forms and syntax, doesn't seem to be the best way to do so. If you want to continue posting your translation efforts, it would be helpful to put in more effort into trying to get everything right before you post them. You will learn more Greek that way, and you will move in the direction of not needing to translate to understand the Greek.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:41 pm

I appreciate the advice. And I’ll attempt future unseens as dikaiopolis has recommended. First draft without any resources, and then a final draft after correcting what I can.
Hylander wrote:You will learn more Greek that way, and you will move in the direction of not needing to translate to understand the Greek.
You and mwh keep mentioning this, but please remember that I picked up what Greek I have in a rather different manner from both of you. I don’t translate at all as I read. Nor do I look ahead and pick sentences apart. I really don’t. For the above, I simply read through several times until everything made sense to me, and then I wrote down what I understood. Obviously I have problems with accuracy that I wouldn’t have if I were practiced at working it all out with a pencil. But my accuracy issues have been getting better, and I find that these attempts at literal translation are showing me exactly what I need to work on.

I’ve started going through Burnet’s “Greek Rudiments” textbook, doing all the exercises. I feel like this will shore up the areas were I’m weak in more traditional skills. My accidence remains weak in a few specific areas, espeically at sight-reading speed. Also, I confess that still I don’t have much of a feel at all for the middle forms of verbs.
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:51 am

I have in a rather different manner from both of you. I don’t translate at all as I read. Nor do I look ahead and pick sentences apart.
I can't speak for mwh, but I certainly don't translate as I read. I do pick sentences apart if I don't understand them after reading them a few times, which is what you should do. But the idea is to get to a point where you're in command of the noun and verb forms as well as the syntax and you can read without translating and without picking sentences apart most of the time. And you can't get to that point without knowing the grammar. Unlike English, Greek encodes a substantial amount of meaning in inflectional endings.
these attempts at literal translation are showing me exactly what I need to work on.
You're well aware of what you need to work on, and I think that attempting sight translations of moderately difficult passages is not advancing you at this point. In translating, you tend to put English sentences together out of the English equivalents of the Greek words according to what you think the Greek ought to mean without understanding the relationships among the Greek words, which works sometimes but often leads you astray precisely at critical junctures. Attempting sight translations of these passages is simply reinforcing this tendency. Sight translations of this sort, incidentally, are aimed at students who have already been studying Greek for many year -- since grammar school, in fact -- and who are in complete command of Greek inflections. You need to get to the point where you automatically recognize the forms most of the time without having to think about it. Right now, picking sentences apart -- or to put it less dismissively, analyzing sentences -- is exactly what you need to do to take your Greek to the next level. Translating the texts set for sight translation would seem to be a useful exercise, provided you don't attempt sight translation.

I would be happy to continue commenting on your attempts at translation to the best of my abilities (I can't guarantee that I never make mistakes), provided that you make the effort to provide a finished product. While there is some value to me in going over your work -- it helps refresh and sharpen my own knowledge of Greek -- it takes a lot of time to do so with the level of care that is needed. When you don't make the effort to pay attention to the endings or to look up unfamiliar words in the dictionary, it takes all that much more time and effort on my part, and it's not helpful to you, either.

I'm sorry if I've expressed myself too harshly: the last sentence in the passage from Demosthenes set me off because it demonstrated exactly what the problem is: your failure to pay attention to the noun and verb forms.

Bill

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by mwh » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:42 am

I had drafted this earlier but suppressed it, but I may as well post it now, if only to back up Bill.

This cuts little ice, Joel. No-one’s suggesting you should look ahead and pick sentences apart, let alone that you should work it all out with a pencil! How many times have I advocated taking things in the order in which they come? If you simply apply what you already know as you read through, then you will not for a single moment imagine that ἐνταῦθα δὴ περιέβαλλον ἀλλήλους καὶ στρατηγοὺς καὶ λοχαγοὺς δακρύοντες means “they were hugging each other and the generals and the captains were crying.”

I don’t mean to rub this particular blunder in your face, but it’s enough to show that you’re going about things the wrong way. Unless you do indeed shore up what you call the “more traditional skills” (such as the ability to distinguish στρατηγούς from στρατηγοί), you’re going to continue to misunderstand what you read.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:01 am

Oh, I certainly didn’t mistake the accusative for the nominative there. I’m master of the 2nd declension at the very least. It’s useless and probably not possible to explain error, but I believe that I was distracted by the και...και there, and just didn’t expect those to be three direct objects in a row. Even looking at it now, I can’t tell if καὶ στρατηγοὺς καὶ λοχαγοὺς isn’t modifying ἀλλήλους (and therefore acting as extensions of the subject). I’m not reliably able to tell the difference between και (and) and και (even).
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:04 am

I was distracted by the και...και there, and just didn’t expect those to be three direct objects in a row. Even looking at it now, I can’t tell if καὶ στρατηγοὺς καὶ λοχαγοὺς isn’t modifying ἀλλήλους (and therefore acting as extensions of the subject). I’m not reliably able to tell the difference between και (and) and και (even).
Joel, I'm sorry, but this has me tearing my hair out (figuratively, since I don't have much anymore). How could you possibly have mistaken δακρύοντες -- nominative, as you know full well -- for a modifier of στρατηγοὺς καὶ λοχαγοὺς -- accusative -- and turned it into a finite verb with accusative subjects?

I think I know the answer, and it's exactly what I've been talking about. You look at the Greek words, associate them with their English equivalents, and then put the English words together in a way that you think makes sense without focusing on or understanding how the Greek words fit together. You were making the same sorts of mistakes about a year ago when you were reading and translating Andocides and Demosthenes.

I hate to say this, but you're not advancing. You are stuck in your scattershot method. It actually works sometimes, but it's hampering you from taking your Greek to a level of substantial competence. I've been working with you for long enough to see this happening again and again. If you're satisfied with that approach, that's fine, but don't post your translations on the internet, where they could mislead others. But if you really want to acquire an understanding of ancient Greek, you simply have to knuckle down and master the grammar. Maybe even picking sentences apart -- analyzing the grammar -- from time to time wouldn't hurt.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Phil T » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:10 am

I am benefitting from viewing mistakes/then corrections. The time you and mwh have taken to correct and teach is appreciated.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by markcmueller » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:23 pm

Even though I'm just a beginner, I agree with Phil. I'm finding this instructive. Of course I make the same mistakes all the time and recognize that when I don't understand a sentence I figure out what the words mean and try to make some sense out of their separate meanings and decide that that's what the sentence must mean.

This discussion reminds me of classroom instruction where students learn from others' mistakes. This is something that a self-learner rarely gets.

Mark

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by jeidsath » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:15 pm

Bill, I think that you are mistaken. Haven't you seen the grammar errors I make here from time to time in English? And that's my native language.

Od. 16.186-206

τὸν δ’ ἠμείβετ’ ἔπειτα πολύτλας δῖος Ὀδυσσεύς·
“οὔ τίς τοι θεός εἰμι· τί μ’ ἀθανάτοισιν ἐΐσκεις;
ἀλλὰ πατὴρ τεός εἰμι, τοῦ εἵνεκα σὺ στεναχίζων
πάσχεις ἄλγεα πολλά, βίας ὑποδέγμενος ἀνδρῶν.”
ὣς ἄρα φωνήσας υἱὸν κύσε, κὰδ δὲ παρειῶν (190)
δάκρυον ἧκε χαμᾶζε· πάρος δ’ ἔχε νωλεμὲς αἰεί. @1
Τηλέμαχος δ’, οὐ γάρ πω ἐπείθετο ὃν πατέρ’ εἶναι,
ἐξαῦτίς μιν ἔπεσσιν ἀμειβόμενος προσέειπεν·
“οὐ σύ γ’ Ὀδυσσεύς ἐσσι πατὴρ ἐμός, ἀλλά με δαίμων
θέλγει, ὄφρ’ ἔτι μᾶλλον ὀδυρόμενος στεναχίζω. (195)
οὐ γάρ πως ἂν θνητὸς ἀνὴρ τάδε μηχανόῳτο
ᾧ αὐτοῦ γε νόῳ, ὅτε μὴ θεὸς αὐτὸς ἐπελθὼν
ῥηϊδίως ἐθέλων θείη νέον ἠδὲ γέροντα.
ἦ γάρ τοι νέον ἦσθα γέρων καὶ ἀεικέα ἕσσο·
νῦν δὲ θεοῖσιν ἔοικας, οἳ οὐρανὸν εὐρὺν ἔχουσι.” (200)
τὸν δ’ ἀπαμειβόμενος προσέφη πολύμητις Ὀδυσσεύς·
“Τηλέμαχ’, οὔ σε ἔοικε φίλον πατέρ’ ἔνδον ἐόντα
οὔτε τι θαυμάζειν περιώσιον οὔτ’ ἀγάασθαι·
οὐ μὲν γάρ τοι ἔτ’ ἄλλος ἐλεύσεται ἐνθάδ’ Ὀδυσσεύς,
ἀλλ’ ὅδ’ ἐγὼ τοιόσδε, παθὼν κακά, πολλὰ δ’ ἀληθείς, (205)
ἤλυθον εἰκοστῷ ἔτεϊ ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν.

First draft, without dictionary or other tools:

And then much-daring godlike Odysseus answered him:
"I am not some god. Why do you liken me to the immortals?
Rather, I am your father, the one on whose behalf you are groaning (?),
suffering many evils, undergoing the violence of men."
Having spoken thus he kissed (?) his son, (??) and from his cheeks
a tear fell to the ground, <πάρος δ’ ἔχε νωλεμὲς αἰεί> (continuously crying?).
But Telemachus, for he was not yet believing that he was his father,
Immediately answered him with words saying
"You at least are not Odysseus my father, rather some deity
tricking me, in order that I may groan (?) being pained (?)
For there is no way a mortal man could devise this,
which is here the idea, (ὅτε?) unless a god himself having come
desiring to do so easily might set a youth and an old man. (talking about a disguise?)
For verily you were youthful (adv?) and [now] you are old and pained.
And now you seem to be one of the gods, who hold broad heaven.
Answering him, much-counseling Odysseus spoke
"Telemachus, it's not right for you, your own father being inside,
either to be amazed at anything overmuch (?) nor to rejoice.
For there isn't yet any other father Odysseus coming here to you,
rather this one such is me, having suffered evil, and much truth (?) [in truth, having suffered much?]
having come in twenty years to his native land.

κὰδ -- what sort of word is that?

***

Looking up things in Cunliffe/Smyth, plus correcting other random errors

κὰδ δὲ = κατὰ δὲ

And then much-daring godlike Odysseus answered him:
"I am not some god. Why do you liken me to the immortals?
Rather, I am your father, the one on whose behalf you are groaning,
suffering many evils, having received violence of men."
Having spoken thus he kissed his son, and down from his cheeks
a tear fell to the ground, before this he had checked it always.
But Telemachus, for he was not yet believing that he was his father,
Immediately answered him with words saying
"You at least are not Odysseus my father, rather some deity
tricks me, in order that I may groan lamenting
For there is no way a mortal man could devise this,
which is here the scheme, except when a god himself having come
desiring to do so easily makes himself a youth or an old man. -- [still a guess]
For verily you were just now an old man and you were dressed shabbily
And now you seem to be one of the gods, who hold broad heaven.
Answering him, much-counseling Odysseus spoke
"Telemachus, it's not right for you, your own father being inside,
either to be amazed at anything overmuch nor to marvel.
For there isn't yet any other Odysseus who will come here to you,
rather this one such is me, having suffered terribly and wandered much,
I came in the twentieth year to my native land.
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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Hylander » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:31 pm

This is better.

πολύτλας -- "having suffered/endured much"

κὰδ . . . ἧκε = καθηκε (tmesis) from καθ-ιημι "throw/cast down". Transitive. Review the conjugation of ιημι.

κὰδ δὲ παρειῶν δάκρυον ἧκε χαμᾶζε -- literally, "he cast a tear down on the ground".

σύ γ’ -- emphatic σύ: "YOU are not my father Odysseus"

θέλγει -- better something like "enchants", "bewitches".

ὄφρ’ ἔτι μᾶλλον ὀδυρόμενος στεναχίζω "so that I groan lamenting even more

ᾧ αὐτοῦ γε νόῳ -- "with his own mind at least"

ὅτε μὴ θεὸς αὐτὸς ἐπελθὼν ῥηϊδίως ἐθέλων θείη -- ἐπελθὼν -- "coming upon him"; here, maybe something like "intervening". ἐθέλων -- I would translate this as a condition: "if he wanted to". "in circumstances where a god himself, intervening, did not easily make [him] a young man and/or an old man", "unless a god himself, intervening, were to easily make him young or old if he wanted to".

οὔ σε ἔοικε φίλον πατέρ’ ἔνδον ἐόντα οὔτε τι θαυμάζειν περιώσιον οὔτ’ ἀγάασθαι· -- πατέρ’ ἔνδον ἐόντα is the direct object of θαυμάζειν and ἀγάασθαι: "you shouldn't wonder or be amazed too much that your own father is within". It's not an accusative absolute, which is an Attic construction that is limited to impersonal expressions with certain participles and doesn't occur in Homer. See Smyth 2076. But at least here I think you've tried to understand the syntax.

τοιόσδε -- maybe something like "in this state you see me in"

Incidentally, I think these collections of "unseens" -- what I call "sight translations" -- are for the use of teachers and the passages are not necessarily intended to be given to students without any help with vocabulary or grammar. It's up to the teacher to decide what level of assistance the students require.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Aetos » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:22 pm

From what I read in the Introduction, these passages were intended to broaden the student's vocabulary and acquaint him with a broader range of material from the Greek classics than was possible by reading whole works, thus enabling the student to succeed at a pass examination for a Bachelor's Degree without Honors, at which "unseen" passages for sight translation would be given.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by dikaiopolis » Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:45 pm

Aetos wrote:From what I read in the Introduction, these passages were intended to broaden the student's vocabulary and acquaint him with a broader range of material from the Greek classics than was possible by reading whole works, thus enabling the student to succeed at a pass examination for a Bachelor's Degree without Honors, at which "unseen" passages for sight translation would be given.
You may be thinking of Cook and Merchant’s original Advanced Greek Unseens (1898, available on Archive.org). Bowen’s (1980) is an updated version. Most importantly, Cook & Merchant gives slightly abridged or adapted texts; Bowen’s passages are unadapted and taken from more recent OCTs or Teubners. As Hylander points out, one use is for a classroom setting where teachers can decide what they want to gloss. More advanced students, however, can benefit from working through them on their own without glosses. I found this collection and its Latin counterpart helpful in preparing for my doctoral exams.

There’s an interesting pedagogical study of “unseen translation” from Cambridge called “Rethinking ‘Unseen’ Translation: A Pilot Scheme for Developing Students’ Reading Skills in Greek and Latin.” It’s available online. The appendices are particularly useful.

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Re: Bowen's Advanced Greek Unseens

Post by Aetos » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:45 pm

dikaiopolis wrote:You may be thinking of Cook and Merchant’s original Advanced Greek Unseens (1898, available on Archive.org). Bowen’s (1980) is an updated version.
I did find the edition of "Advanced Greek Unseens" I was paraphrasing on archive.org, however it appears to have been published in 1904 and its editor is one B.J. Hayes. It was the only version I could find, so perhaps this was a reprint or a reworking of the original. Here's the link:
https://archive.org/search.php?query=ad ... %20unseens
Thanks for the reference to that study! I'll have to give it a look.

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