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Republic 337

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Republic 337

Postby jeidsath » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:21 am

I thought that there were a number of difficulties with moods and other things in this section, and I wanted some correction on it.

καὶ ὃς ἀκούσας ἀνεκάγχασέ τε μάλα σαρδάνιον καὶ εἶπεν:


And hearing [this] he laughed a very scornful laugh and said:

Why ὃς? Why τε? Is σαρδάνιον an adjective (as I translated) or an adverb?

ὦ Ἡράκλεις, ἔφη, αὕτη 'κείνη ἡ εἰωθυῖα εἰρωνεία Σωκράτους, καὶ ταῦτ᾽ ἐγὼ ᾔδη τε καὶ τούτοις προύλεγον, ὅτι σὺ ἀποκρίνασθαι μὲν οὐκ ἐθελήσοις, εἰρωνεύσοιο δὲ καὶ πάντα μᾶλλον ποιήσοις ἢ ἀποκρινοῖο, εἴ τίς τί σε ἐρωτᾷ.


Oh Heracles!, he said, This is that accustomed dissimulation of Socrates, and I for one knew it and was predicting to these people that you would not be willing to answer, but would dissemble and would do everything rather than answer, if someone is asking you something.

Do I parse "αὕτη 'κείνη ἡ εἰωθυῖα εἰρωνεία" as ἡ αὐτη followed by a predicate ἐκείνη ἡ εἰωθυῖα εἰρωνεία?

ἐθελήσοις - future optative, would be future indicative in direct speech
εἰρωνεύσοιο - future optative
ποιήσοις - future optative
ἀποκρινοῖο - future optative
ἐρωτᾷ - there is no ἂν, so indicative? It's vivid, I suppose, so not optative, but I don't understand the lack of ἂν.

I'll save the next section until after this post is answer. It has some even more interesting bits, I think.

σοφὸς γὰρ εἶ, ἦν δ᾽ ἐγώ, ὦ Θρασύμαχε: εὖ οὖν ᾔδησθα ὅτι εἴ τινα ἔροιο ὁπόσα ἐστὶν τὰ δώδεκα, καὶ ἐρόμενος προείποις αὐτῷ— ‘ὅπως μοι, ὦ ἄνθρωπε, μὴ ἐρεῖς ὅτι ἔστιν τὰ δώδεκα δὶς ἓξ μηδ᾽ ὅτι τρὶς τέτταρα μηδ᾽ ὅτι ἑξάκις δύο μηδ᾽ ὅτι τετράκις τρία: ὡς οὐκ ἀποδέξομαί σου ἐὰν τοιαῦτα φλυαρῇς’ —δῆλον οἶμαί σοι ἦν ὅτι οὐδεὶς ἀποκρινοῖτο τῷ οὕτως πυνθανομένῳ. ἀλλ᾽ εἴ σοι εἶπεν: ‘ὦ Θρασύμαχε, πῶς λέγεις; μὴ ἀποκρίνωμαι ὧν προεῖπες μηδέν; πότερον, ὦ θαυμάσιε, μηδ᾽ εἰ τούτων τι τυγχάνει ὄν, ἀλλ᾽ ἕτερον εἴπω τι τοῦ ἀληθοῦς; ἢ πῶς λέγεις;’ τί ἂν αὐτῷ εἶπες πρὸς ταῦτα;
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Republic 337

Postby anphph » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:27 pm

Hey Joel!

Here's my take.

καὶ ὃς ἀκούσας ἀνεκάγχασέ τε μάλα σαρδάνιον καὶ εἶπεν:


Why ὃς?

DEMONSTR. PRON., = οὗτος, ὅδε, this, that; also, he, she, it:
in later Gr. this usage remained in a few forms:
at the beginning of a clause, καὶ ὅς and he, Hdt.7.18, X.Smp.1.15, Pl. Phd.118, Prt.310d ; καὶ ἥ and she, καὶ οἵ and they, Hdt.8.56,87, Pl. Smp.201e, X.An.7.6.4.


It is reminiscent of Latin "Qui", which works in the same faction, except no "καί".

Why τε?

I'd say it's a simple connector. I don't think it's connected with the following καί (in a τε . . . καί construction), but I may be wrong.

Is σαρδάνιον an adjective (as I translated) or an adverb?


In your translation you seem to invent a word ("laugh"), a noun with which to pair your supposed adjective. It's an adverb. The difference is slight, of course.

αὕτη 'κείνη ἡ εἰωθυῖα εἰρωνεία


αὕτη [ἐστιν] ἐκείνη ἡ εἰωθυῖα εἰρωνεία, is it not? Predicative, as you suggest.

ἐρωτᾷ


You don't need the ἄν for conditional clauses. Besides, as you say, the only reason the main clauses are in the optative is because it's indirect speech.

Hope this helps :)
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Re: Republic 337

Postby jeidsath » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:49 pm

Thank you! That clears things up, although I'm still unclear about ἐρωτᾷ.

"εἰ ἐρωτᾷ" is perfectly fine Greek, but I found it strange before a future apodosis and in this context. I would have expected "εἰ ἐρωτῷ" for "εἂν ἐρωτᾷ."

***

σοφὸς γὰρ εἶ, ἦν δ᾽ ἐγώ, ὦ Θρασύμαχε:


Because you are wise, Thrasymachus, I said,

Is γάρ forward looking or backward looking looking here? The οὖν in the next sentence would indicate forward looking?

εὖ οὖν ᾔδησθα ὅτι εἴ τινα ἔροιο ὁπόσα ἐστὶν τὰ δώδεκα, καὶ ἐρόμενος προείποις αὐτῷ—


You therefore well knew that if you were to question someone as to how much is twelve of something, and having questioned were to say ahead of him...

τὰ δώδεκα - twelve of something? He's not asking for a definition of the number, which would just be "δώδεκα" alone?
ἔροιο - present optative, standing for either an optative in direct speech or subjunctive with ἂν
ἐρόμενος - present or aorist, but I took it as an aorist
προείποις - aorist optative, standing for either an optative in direct speech or subjunctive with ἂν

‘ὅπως μοι, ὦ ἄνθρωπε, μὴ ἐρεῖς ὅτι ἔστιν τὰ δώδεκα δὶς ἓξ μηδ᾽ ὅτι τρὶς τέτταρα μηδ᾽ ὅτι ἑξάκις δύο μηδ᾽ ὅτι τετράκις τρία:


So long, man, as you don't say to me that twelve of something is twice six or that it's thrice four or that it's six times two or that's it's four times three

ἐρεῖς -- "future" indicative of ἐρῶ. This is ὅπως "after Verbs of fear and caution" in the LSJ, correct?

And I'll save the very last part for another post.

ὡς οὐκ ἀποδέξομαί σου ἐὰν τοιαῦτα φλυαρῇς’ —δῆλον οἶμαί σοι ἦν ὅτι οὐδεὶς ἀποκρινοῖτο τῷ οὕτως πυνθανομένῳ. ἀλλ᾽ εἴ σοι εἶπεν: ‘ὦ Θρασύμαχε, πῶς λέγεις; μὴ ἀποκρίνωμαι ὧν προεῖπες μηδέν; πότερον, ὦ θαυμάσιε, μηδ᾽ εἰ τούτων τι τυγχάνει ὄν, ἀλλ᾽ ἕτερον εἴπω τι τοῦ ἀληθοῦς; ἢ πῶς λέγεις;’ τί ἂν αὐτῷ εἶπες πρὸς ταῦτα;
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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