Textkit Logo

is this reading representative of any particular tradition?

Here you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get help with a difficult passage of Greek, and more.

is this reading representative of any particular tradition?

Postby Tugodum » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:04 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcIvDUehsfE
I'm not familiar with the "map" of extant modern ways of reading Ancient Greek, so would be grateful for a simple characteristic of this one vis-à-vis (some) others.
Tugodum
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 278
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: is this reading representative of any particular traditi

Postby donhamiltontx » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:26 pm

Whether this reading is representative of any particular tradition I can't say. However, there is another reading here http://juliustomin.org/apologyingreek.html, so you can compare the two aural versions for yourself. There are more readings from this reader (Julius Tomin, as referenced here http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12640&start=40).
ἐς Τροίαν πειρώμενοι ἦνθον ᾿Αχαιοί,
καλλίστα παίδων: πείρᾳ θην πάντα τελεῖται.
Theocritus, Idyll 15
donhamiltontx
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:27 pm

Re: is this reading representative of any particular traditi

Postby jeidsath » Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:52 pm

This is a mix of Modern and the scientifc/Erasmian/recovered pronunciation of Ancient Greek. Some of the things to notice: 1) ει and η are iotacized [Modern] 2) φ,θ,χ as fricatives rather than aspirates [Modern/Erasmian], 3) stress accent rather than pitch [more Erasmian than Modern because he screws up sometimes], 4) vowel length is correct [Erasmian, but he makes vowels long on heavy syllables with short vowels, which is incorrect], 5) ᾳ,ῃ,ῳ as α,η,ω [Modern/Erasmian-sometimes].

Overall, I love it, except for the iotacism. Allen in Vox Graeca actually recommends 2,3,5 as the best realistic choice for English speakers.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 2550
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: is this reading representative of any particular traditi

Postby Tugodum » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:02 pm

Thanks a lot, Joel! One thing I missed is why "accent rather than pitch" is "more Erasmian than Modern." Also, by "heavy syllables", did you mean the stressed ones? Also, does not Allen say something about iotacizing to the effect that it, actually, emerged early (which would mean that the ancients were already reading Plato this way)? Or this might be my memory glitch....
Tugodum
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 278
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: is this reading representative of any particular traditi

Postby jeidsath » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:19 pm

One thing I missed is why "accent rather than pitch" is "more Erasmian than Modern."


Don't cut off my sentence and you'll have your answer. "More Erasmian than Modern because he screws up sometimes". A modern Greek never screws up the stress accent.

Also, by "heavy syllables", did you mean the stressed ones?


Heavy syllables in poetry. That includes both syllables with long vowels and syllables with short vowels that are followed by two consonants. He mistakenly lengthens the short vowel in the later cases.

Also, does not Allen say something about iotacizing to the effect that it, actually, emerged early (which would mean that the ancients were already reading Plato this way)


You are probably thinking of Horrocks, who follows Teodorsson on this. Allen disagreed with Teodorsson. See Ruijgh's 1978 review of Teodorsson in Mnemosyne. (French).
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 2550
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: is this reading representative of any particular traditi

Postby Tugodum » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:59 pm

Thanks again! Sorry for being slow. I did not realize that Erasmian implies pitch, not stress accent; never heard this implemented in the academia. Will try to catch where this reader replaces stress by pitch...
Tugodum
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 278
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: is this reading representative of any particular traditi

Postby jeidsath » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:07 pm

"I did not realize that Erasmian implies pitch, not stress accent"

Who said that? I said this reader uses stress which is Erasmian and Modern. But more Erasmian because he screws up where he places the stress.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 2550
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: is this reading representative of any particular traditi

Postby Tugodum » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:10 pm

But how is misplacing the stress "more Erasmian" than placing it correctly?
Tugodum
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 278
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: is this reading representative of any particular traditi

Postby jeidsath » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:17 pm

To quote myself again:

"More Erasmian than Modern because he screws up sometimes". A modern Greek never screws up the stress accent.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 2550
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: is this reading representative of any particular traditi

Postby Tugodum » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:23 pm

"A modern Greek never screws up the stress accent."--I got that. But I thought you mean that Erasmian, on the other hand, (sometimes) does. So my question is how precisely Erasmian screws up the stress accent.
Tugodum
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 278
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: is this reading representative of any particular traditi

Postby jeidsath » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:42 pm

No, "Erasmian" doesn't screw up the stress accent. But non-native speakers do. If you didn't learn Greek in infancy, you put stress on the wrong syllable every now and then. This reader, if you listen, sometimes put stress on long vowels that don't have the accent.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 2550
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: is this reading representative of any particular traditi

Postby Tugodum » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:44 pm

Got it. Thanks!
Tugodum
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 278
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: is this reading representative of any particular traditi

Postby opoudjis » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:29 am

jeidsath wrote:No, "Erasmian" doesn't screw up the stress accent. But non-native speakers do. If you didn't learn Greek in infancy, you put stress on the wrong syllable every now and then. This reader, if you listen, sometimes put stress on long vowels that don't have the accent.


One of the things I learned during my time at the TLG is that learnèd Byzantine Greek systematically misaccentuates words, accenting syllables where neither Ancient nor Modern Greek would put them. There have been instances of accent shift between Ancient and Modern Greek—and indeed between dialects of Ancient Greek, notably the -της agentive suffix; but the pattern in Byzantine Greek is endemic.

(It's also one of the things I worry about, having left the TLG: that noone will object any more to these misaccentuations being corrected in proofreading, prior to posting new texts online.)

I don't know that anyone's ever remarked on this tendency, let alone accounted for it. It's too frequent to be mere scribal error or misreading. It includes Church Fathers in Migne, but it also includes recent scholarly editions. I can only conclude it's some sort of affectation of the time.
User avatar
opoudjis
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 100
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:54 am

Re: is this reading representative of any particular traditi

Postby Barry Hofstetter » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:31 am

jeidsath wrote:No, "Erasmian" doesn't screw up the stress accent. But non-native speakers do. If you didn't learn Greek in infancy, you put stress on the wrong syllable every now and then. This reader, if you listen, sometimes put stress on long vowels that don't have the accent.


It's actually quite difficult as a native American English speaker not to place stress on long vowels. This was pointed out to me by several Korean students I had when teaching beginning Greek in seminary -- up until that time I had no idea I was doing it. The non-Korean American students didn't even notice... I then worked hard at not doing that when reading Greek.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Barry Hofstetter
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 631
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: is this reading representative of any particular traditi

Postby jeidsath » Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:34 pm

opoudjis wrote:One of the things I learned during my time at the TLG is that learnèd Byzantine Greek systematically misaccentuates words, accenting syllables where neither Ancient nor Modern Greek would put them. There have been instances of accent shift between Ancient and Modern Greek—and indeed between dialects of Ancient Greek, notably the -της agentive suffix; but the pattern in Byzantine Greek is endemic.

(It's also one of the things I worry about, having left the TLG: that noone will object any more to these misaccentuations being corrected in proofreading, prior to posting new texts online.)

I don't know that anyone's ever remarked on this tendency, let alone accounted for it. It's too frequent to be mere scribal error or misreading. It includes Church Fathers in Migne, but it also includes recent scholarly editions. I can only conclude it's some sort of affectation of the time.


By also includes recent scholarly editions are you saying that modern Greeks still make the same errors? I'd be interested in hearing more about any patterns you see here. Have you ever read Allen's theory of a secondary Greek accent?
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 2550
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: is this reading representative of any particular traditi

Postby Tugodum » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:01 pm

It includes Church Fathers in Migne
I would be grateful for some examples of this. My first training in Greek was in Byzantine one, then I had some Modern Greek (taught by a native speaker) and did not catch any discrepancies in accentuation vis-à-vis Byzantine. Wish I could learn what I missed. Needless to say, I was not taught to pronounce long vowels as long.
Tugodum
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 278
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: is this reading representative of any particular traditi

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:09 pm

jeidsath wrote:By also includes recent scholarly editions are you saying that modern Greeks still make the same errors?

Shifting patterns in the accent of words is not one of the standard criteria that are used to differentiate Greek dialects, cf.
http://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang/ ... index.html

That being said however, there is an obvious difference between Ancient and Modern Greek in that the accent doesn't move forward for the genitive forms of nouns, such as; άθρωπος - άνθρωπου.
Thou wast not born for death, immortal Bird!
No hungry generations tread thee down;
The voice I hear this passing night was heard
In ancient days by emperor and clown:
(Keats, Ode to a nightingale, 1819).
User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 638
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC

Re: is this reading representative of any particular traditi

Postby opoudjis » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:31 am

By also includes recent scholarly editions are you saying that modern Greeks still make the same errors?


No, on the contrary: these are misaccentuations that make no sense in either Ancient or Modern Greek. They are what the scribes have written, and I'm saying that recent editions are respecting what the scribes have written: we can't just blame these on Migne's shoddiness. (Nor indeed are they restricted to church fathers.)

I'd be interested in hearing more about any patterns you see here. Have you ever read Allen's theory of a secondary Greek accent?


Alas, no patterns. Not familiar with Allen's theory, but I doubt that anything Allen says would be relevant here: this is a scribal pattern that postdates the shift to stress accent, and is not to be explained via Modern Greek, so I do think it's just an affectation: fantasy morphology, just like the Hiberno-Latin fantasy forms of the same time were.

Here's some examples I've noted down in my time; citation forms and not the actual forms, but you should be able to find these on the TLG.

    ἀβλάβης
    Ἀβύδοθι
    ἀβύσσος
    ἄγαθος
    ἁγαπή
    ἀγάπητος
    ἀγγελός
    ἄγγειον
    ἀγέλαιος
    ἀγεννητός
    ἀγενώρ
    ἄγητος
    ἁγιός
    ἁγκαλή
    ἄγκων
    ἄγμος
    ἀγνώσια
    ἀγόρα
    ἀγοράνομος
    ἀγοράστης
    ἀγορήτης
    ἀγραυλός
    ἄγρος
    ἀγρύπνια
    ἀγρωστίς
    ἀγυρτής
    ἀγχινοῦς
    ἄγχου
    ἄγωγος
    ἀγώνια

Forms like ἀγαπή are real head-scratchers, so I had noted some examples down when I had access to the TLG; it's there in Origen, Leontius of Neapolis, Basil of Caesaria, Theodore Studites, and Theodore of Mopsuesta, among others. Many of them are Migne editions, but not all.

Origen (2042.034): ὁ δὲ καρπὸς τοῦ πνεύματός ἐστιν ἀγαπή, χαρά, εἰρήνη... (published 1908)

Origen (2032.044): τὸ δὲ ποιῆσαι τὸ ἀγαθὸν ἡ ἀγαπὴ προστάσσει (published 1883)

Leontius of Neapolis (2913.001): διὰ τὸ πληθυνθῆναι τὴν ἀνομίαν ψυγήσεται ἡ ἀγαπὴ τῶν πολλῶν (published 1974)

Theodore of Mopsuesta (4135.025): ἔτι γὰρ τολμῶ τῆς ὑμετέρας ἀγαπῆς καταθαρρεῖν (published 1966)

Basil of Caesarea (2040.048): ἐν αἷς πᾶσα ἀλήθεια τῆς ἐν Χριστῷ ἀγαπῆς κατορθοῦται (Migne)

Theodore Studites (2714.009): καὶ πάντα δεύτερα ἡγούμενοι τῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ ἀγαπῆς. (published 1891)

Scholia on Oppian (5032.002): Φιλότητος ἔρωτι· τῇ τῆς φιλίας ἀγαπῇ. (published 1849)

The reflex reaction to these will be to dismiss them as scribal nonsense, and to dismiss 19th century editors for tolerating them. But Byzantine scribal practice is still a fact about the transmission of Greek; and Festugière/Rydén's edition of Leontius of Neapolis (a work significant in that it is one of the few attestations of anything like the vernacular from the 7th century) was 20th century editorial competence incarnate.
Last edited by opoudjis on Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
opoudjis
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 100
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:54 am

Re: is this reading representative of any particular traditi

Postby jeidsath » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:21 am

Interesting. I do notice that the ἁγαπή-forms in TLG always show up before a vowel or unvoiced/fricative plosives (θ,χ,π,τ,κ). Never before δέ, which would normally be frequent. But with <30 examples, you'd have to investigate other words as well

In your list, 14/30 fall on the syllable that Allen would predict for stress (compared to 10/30 by random chance). That's not much of a signal, unfortunately.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 2550
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: is this reading representative of any particular traditi

Postby opoudjis » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:55 am

ἑκηβόλος wrote:That being said however, there is an obvious difference between Ancient and Modern Greek in that the accent doesn't move forward for the genitive forms of nouns, such as; άθρωπος - άνθρωπου.


In fact, one dialectal shibboleth is that Modern Cretan accents ἄνθρωποι as αθρώποι. The romantic hypothesis has been advanced that this is an inheritance from Doric; the much more plausible account is that this is mere analogy from ἀνθρώπους.
User avatar
opoudjis
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 100
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:54 am

Re: is this reading representative of any particular traditi

Postby chirpis » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:19 am

jeidsath wrote: Have you ever read Allen's theory of a secondary Greek accent?


Is this somewhere in Vox Graeca, or somewhere else?
chirpis
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:09 pm

Re: is this reading representative of any particular traditi

Postby jeidsath » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:33 pm

There's a chapter about it in the last edition of Vox Graeca, although some printing errors on the formulas make it hard to parse. Accent and Rhythm has a longer discussion. Martin L. West has a critique of the theory it in his review, which can be found on JSTOR.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 2550
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν


Return to Learning Greek