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Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

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Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby Bernd Strauss » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:56 pm

I need to know what the below text is speaking about. It mentions Jesus’ coming, using the words παρουσία and ἔλευσις coupled with the word δευτέρα. Can someone translate the three marked sentences?

Apocalypsis apocrypha Joannis (versio tertia), extract: “Καὶ γὰρ οὐκ εἰσὶν οἱ ἄγγελοι πονηροί, μὴ γένοιτο, ἀλλὰ διὰ τὰς πράξεις τῶν ἁμαρτωλῶν γενήσονται καὶ οἱ ἄγγελοι πονηροὶ καὶ ἀπάγουνται ἀπέναντι τῶν κολάσεων ὅπου μέλ(λ)ουν κολάζεσθαι εἰς ὅλους τοὺς αἰῶνας, καὶ θεωρεῖ τοὺς βασάνους ὅπου μέλ(λ)ουν κολάζεσθαι καὶ λέγει· Κύριε, Κύριε, ὁ ποιήσας τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν, μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ δευτέρα παρουσία καὶ ὑποβληθῶ τῶν αὐτοῦ βασάνων. Ἀλλὰ τοῦτο λέγω, Ἰάκωβε φίλε θεοῦ, ἁμαρτωλῶν ἀμετανοήτων θεὸς οὐκ εἰσακούει. Ὁ Ἰάκωβος λέγει πρὸς αὐτόν· Θεολόγε Ἰωάννη, ἀνάγγειλόν μοι καὶ περὶ τῶν δικαίω(ν). ὅταν δὲ χωρίζεται ἡ ψυχὴ ἐκ τοῦ σώματος αὐτοῦ λέγει· εὐχαριστῶ (σοι), θεέ μου, καλὲ βασιλεῦ οὐράνιε, ὅτι ἀπεχωρίσθην πηλίνου σώματος καὶ ἐφάνην ἐγὼ φωτεινὸς καὶ αὐτὸς κατάκειται ἐν γῇ διαλυθείσας ἦν ἄξια· καὶ γὰρ ἀπέρχομαι εἰς φῶς τοῦ παραδείσου ὡς οὐκ ἐπαρέβην ἐντολὴν τῶν ἱερέων οὔτε λόγους τοῦ ἁγίου Εὐαγγελίου. Καὶ τότε ἀπάγουν αὐτὸν ἐν τῷ ἀέρι καὶ θεωροῦντες αὐτὸν οἱ δαί μονες κατακρύπτονται ὡς οὐκ εἰσὶν ἄξιοι προσαπαντῆσαι τῷ δικαίῳ, ἀλλὰ μᾶλλον θεωροῦντες αὐτὸν μακρόθεν θρηνοῦντες ἄμετρα καὶ λέγουν· οὐαὶ ἡμῖν ὅτι οὐκ ἐσμὲν ἄξιοι μόνον ἵνα θεασώμεθα αὐτόν! καὶ ὑπάγουν αὐτὸν οἱ ἄγγελοι εἰς τὸν πύρινον ποταμὸν καὶ περνᾷ ὡς περιστερὰ πετάζουσα καὶ παραμένει ἐκεῖ ἡ ψυχὴ ἡμέρας τρεῖς καὶ λέγει οὕτως· εὐχαριστῶ σοι, Κύριε, ὅτι ἄσπιλος καὶ ἀκόλαστος τῶν βασάνων τούτων διεπέρασα. καὶ προςκυνεῖ τὸν θρόνον τὸν τετράμορφον, καὶ συνακολουθοῦσιν αὐτὸν οἱ ἄγγελοι καὶ ἀπάγουν αὐτὸν εἰς τὸν σκώληκα τὸν ἀκοίμητον, καὶ τότε βοοῦν αἱ κολάσεις· ἄπαγε ἀφ' ἡμῶν, ψυχὴ φωτεινή, μὴ ἐγγίσῃς ἡμῶν ὅτι οὐκ ἐσμὲν ἄξιοι. Καὶ τότε λέγει ἡ ψυχή· εὐχαριστῶ σοι, Κύριε, ὅτι αὐτῶν τῶν βασάνων ἀλλότριός εἰμι ἐγώ. καὶ παραμένει ἐκεῖ ἡμέρας θʹ. καὶ τότε ἀπάγεται ὑπὸ τῶν ἀγγέλων καὶ προσκυνεῖ τὸν θρόνον τὸν τετράμορφον καὶ ἀκολουθοῦσιν αὐτὸν οἱ ἄγγελοι χαίροντες καὶ ἀγάλλοντες ὅτι αὐτῶν τῶν βασάνων οὐκ ἐστὶν ἄξιος ἵνα μόνον ὁρᾶν αὐτούς· ταῦτα περιμένουν τοὺς ἀμετανοήτους καὶ ἁμαρτωλούς. Καὶ παραμένει ἐκεῖ ἡ ψυχὴ ἡμέρας μʹ καὶ τότε ἀπάγεται πάλιν καὶ προσκυνεῖ τὸν θρόνον τὸν τετράμορφον καὶ τότε ὁρᾷ τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ τότε χαίρει ὁ Πατὴρ σὺν τῷ Υἱῷ καὶ τὸ ἅγιον Πνεῦμα καὶ πάντες οἱ ἄγγελοι καὶ οἱ ἀρχάγγελοι μετὰ λαμπάδων καὶ δόξης πολλῆς καὶ ἀπάγουν αὐτὸν ἐνώπιον τοῦ παραδείσου καὶ θεωρεῖ τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ ἣν μέλλει λαβέσθαι καὶ λέγει· Κύριε, Κύριε, ἂς ἔλθῃ σύντομα ἡ δευτέρα παρουσία σου ἵνα λάβω τὴν δόξα(ν) μου. Καὶ ἔστιν μέσα τῶν ἁμαρτωλῶν καὶ τῶν δικαίων χάσμα μέγα καὶ ἐν τὸ χάσμα πῦρ φλέγων τοὺς ἁμαρτωλούς, πρὸς δὲ τοὺς δικαίους δρόσος καὶ δροσίζει αὐτούς. Καὶ λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰάκωβος· εἰπὲ ἡμῖν, εὐλογημένε δοῦλε τοῦ θεοῦ, Ἰωάννη Θεολόγε· καὶ πῶς μέλ(λ)ει σωθῆναι πᾶσα ψυχή, ὅτι οὐδεὶς ἀναμάρτητος; Καὶ λέγει αὐτῷ Ἰωάννης· ἄκουσον, ὦ Ἰάκωβε, σκληρὸς ὁ λόγος ὃν σὺ ἐρωτᾷς με. μαρτυρεῖ μοι ἅγιον Εὐαγγέλιον ὅτι ἔχων ἑκατὸν πρόβατα καὶ (ἐὰν) πλανηθῇ ἓν ἐξ αὐτῶν, οὐχὶ ἀφεὶς τὰ ἐνενήκοντα ἐν(ν)έα τῷ ὄρει πορευθῇ ζητῶν τὸ ἀπολωλὸς καὶ εὑρὼν αὐτὸν βαστάζῃ τοῦτον ἐπὶ τῶν ὤμων αὐτοῦ καὶ ἔρχεται ἐπὶ τοὺς φίλους καὶ ἀδελφοὺς αὐτοῦ λέγων ὅτι συγχάρητέ μοι ὅτι εὗρον τὸ ἀπολωλὸς πρόβατόν μου; Οὕτως καὶ ἐὰν πλανηθῇ τις ἐν ἁμαρτίᾳ καὶ πάλιν μεταστρέφεται καὶ ἐξέρχεται ἐν τῷ ἱερεῖ ἐξομολογούμενος τὰς ἁμαρτίας αὐτοῦ πάσας, τότε ὁ διάβολος αὐτοῦ φεύγει ἐκ τὴν θύραν τῆς ἐκκλησίας ἕως ᾅδου καὶ λέγει· οὐαί μοι ὅτι ἠπώλεσαν τὸν ἐμὸν φίλον. Καὶ τότε παραλαμβάνει αὐτὸν ὁ Κύριος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς τῆς δεξιᾶς χειρὸς καὶ λέγει τοῖς ἀγγέλοις αὐτοῦ· συγχάρητέ μοι ὅτι πρόβατον ἀπολωλόμενον ηὗρον. καὶ μεγάλη χαρὰ γίνεται ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ καὶ ἐν τῇ γῇ ἐπὶ ἁμαρτωλῷ μετανοοῦντι. καὶ ἐὰν μέλ(λ)ῃ αὔριον ἐξομολογήσασθαι καὶ ἀφῶν τὴν ἁμαρτίαν σήμερον κατοικεῖ τὸ ἅγιον πνεῦμα ἐν αὐτῷ. ὅτι ἐὰν ἁμαρτάνῃ ἄνθρωπος ἐκφεύξεται ἐξ αὐτὸν τὸ ἅγιον πνεῦμα καὶ παραστήκει αὐτὸν ὡς (ς)κιὰν (ν)υκτὸς καὶ ἡμέρας καὶ ἐκδέχεται τὴν ὀδύνην ἵνα κατοικῇ ἐν αὐτὸν καὶ ὁ Κύριος ἡμῶν. Οἰκτείρει ὁ προφήτης ὅτι· νεώτερος ἐγενόμην καὶ γὰρ ἐγήρασα καὶ οὐκ οἶδα δίκαιον ἐγκαταλελυμένον οὐδὲ τὸ σπέρμα αὐτοῦ ζητοῦν ἄρτους. Καὶ ἐγὼ Ἰωάννης λέγω ὅτι οἰκτειρήσει ὁ Κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς ἐν τῇ δευτέρᾳ ἐλεύσει αὐτοῦ, οἰκτειρεῖ καὶ σώζει τὴν ψυχήν. Δείξω σοι ὑπόδειγμαν καὶ μὴ ἀφελπῇς ἀπὸ τῆς φιλανθρωπίας τοῦ θεοῦ. ἐάν τις καὶ μὴ ἀνωὰ ἔχῃ ὑπόδειγμα, (ἰδὲ) τὸν Πέτρον, ὅτι τρίτον ἀρνησάμενος τὸν Κύριον ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν καὶ πάλιν διὰ θερμῶν δακρύων ἐσυνεχωρήθη εὐθὺς καὶ οὐράνιος κλειδοῦχος ἐγίνετον διὰ τῆς θερμῆς μετανοίας.”
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby Barry Hofstetter » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:24 pm

I see that no on has yet taken pity on you, but hopefully this is more motivation actually to learn the language (it really helps when reading texts such as this). However, perhaps you've learned enough to make a stab at guessing what δευτέρα modifying ἔλευσις and παρουσία means?
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby Aetos » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:58 pm

Hi Barry,
This is somewhat off topic, but I just wanted you to know that even though you took some flac for it, your ζηθ line made my day! I wish you could have seen me LMAO. I know it's probably an old joke (reminds me a lot of Groucho) but I'd never heard it and it cracked me up!
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:48 am

Aetos wrote:your ζηθ line made my day!

Mine too. However it was intended, I took it as feigned stupor expressing his lack of understanding, rather than anything overtly negative like derision directed at the content.
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:48 am

Barry has hinted at the translation of this third section that you emboldened. I myself want to make a comment in the history of the forms too.
Apocalypsis apocrypha Joannis (versio tertia) wrote:Καὶ ἐγὼ Ἰωάννης λέγω ὅτι οἰκτειρήσει ὁ Κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς ἐν τῇ δευτέρᾳ ἐλεύσει αὐτοῦ, οἰκτειρεῖ καὶ σώζει τὴν ψυχήν
And it is I John, who says that the Lord Jesus Christ will have pity at his Second Coming (when he turns up next time). He is moved to pity and he saves souls.

LSJ (1940) wrote:οἰκτ-ίρω [ι_] (in codd. freq. -ειρ-, but -ι_ρ- in early Inscrr., IG12.971,976,982, v. sub fin. ; cf. κατοικτίρω): impf. ᾤκτ(ε)ιρον Stesich.18 : fut.
A.“οἰκτι^ρῶ” A.Fr.199.6 (-ερεῖ codd.): aor. ᾤκτ(ε)ιρα Il.11.814, A.Pr.354, al. ; Ion. οἴκτ(ε)ιρα Hdt.3.52:—Pass., only pres. and impf., ibid., X.Oec.7.40, S.El.1412 :—later forms (as if from οἰκτειρέω) : fut. οἰκτειρήσω Sch.Od.4.740, LXXEx.33.19, Ep.Rom.9.15, Lib.Descr.30.18 : aor. ᾠκτείρησα Sch.A.Pr.353 : aor. Pass. οἰκτειρηθῆναι ib.637.—Cf. οἰκτείρημα :—pity, have pity upon, c. acc. pers., Il.11.814, 16.5, Hdt.l.c., 7.38 ; “ἐλεῆσαι καὶ οἰ.” Pl.Euthd. 288d ; οἰ. τινά τινος pity one for or because of a thing, “οἰκτίρω σε θεσφάτου μόρου” A.Ag.1321, cf. Supp.209 ; also “οἰ. τινά τινος ἕνεκα” X.Oec. 2.7 ; ἐπί τινι ib.4 : c. acc. rei, E.Med.1233, Ar.V.328, Antipho 3.1.2.


After reading this passage, there is no need for the "as if" in the LSJ entry.


For Modern Greek, cf.
Triantafyllides wrote:οικτίρω [iktíro] Ρ (μόνο στο ενεστ. θ.) : (λόγ.) αισθάνομαι οίκτο για κπ.: Σε ~ για το κατάντημά σου.

[λόγ. < αρχ. οἰκτίρω]


After reading Triantafyllides, the vague reference to "later" is questionable. Presumably the οἰκτειρέω forms were only current for a certain period.
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby Bernd Strauss » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:05 am

From what I can see in the text, the phrases δευτέρα παρουσία and δευτέρα ἔλευσις in the text are used with reference to the same second coming. Since this is a very rare instance where these two phrases occur in the same context, I am interested to know what the text says. I can only use such programs as Google translate to guess what the text means.
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby Barry Hofstetter » Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:03 pm

Bernd Strauss wrote:From what I can see in the text, the phrases δευτέρα παρουσία and δευτέρα ἔλευσις in the text are used with reference to the same second coming. Since this is a very rare instance where these two phrases occur in the same context, I am interested to know what the text says. I can only use such programs as Google translate to guess what the text means.


What does δευτέρα mean? Second, Deuteronomy, the second giving of the law. By now, you should have a sense of what the synonyms παρουσία and ἔλευσις mean. *Sigh*. Painfully literally to capture something of the structure of the Greek:

Κύριε, Κύριε, ὁ ποιήσας τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν, μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ δευτέρα παρουσία καὶ ὑποβληθῶ τῶν αὐτοῦ βασάνων...

The syntax is a bit obscure here, but "Lord, Lord, having made heaven and earth, let not your second coming come and I experience it's torments."

Κύριε, Κύριε, ἂς [=ἄφες] ἔλθῃ σύντομα ἡ δευτέρα παρουσία σου ἵνα λάβω τὴν δόξα(ν) μου...

"Lord, Lord, let your second coming come quickly that I might receive my glory."

Καὶ ἐγὼ Ἰωάννης λέγω ὅτι οἰκτειρήσει ὁ Κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς ἐν τῇ δευτέρᾳ ἐλεύσει αὐτοῦ, οἰκτειρεῖ καὶ σώζει τὴν ψυχήν...

"And I, John, say that the Lord Jesus Christ will have mercy at his second coming, he has mercy and saves the soul..."
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:08 pm

ὁ ποιήσας

There is an article here. It is probably vocative.
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby Bernd Strauss » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:20 pm

Thank you for the translations. I was aware that the phrases δευτέρα παρουσία and δευτέρα ἔλευσις are used interchangeably and mean “second coming.” The word δευτέρα is a feminine form of the adjective δεύτερος (“second”). I needed to see what the surrounding context says, and have to ask others for help in such cases.
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:31 pm

Bernd Strauss wrote:I needed to see what the surrounding context says, and have to ask others for help in such cases.


I spent years of my life studying both Greek and Hebrew apocalyptic literature (over 25 years ago). The author of this text appears to be employing a lot of stock (stereotyped) phrases which can be found in canonical sources. Someone who has read the New Testament and the Greek versions of the OT prophets will have only a few problems reading this text.

Translating is not the same as reading. Translating is all about solving problems with the target language. I looked around but wasn't able find a translation of this online. People who have mortgaged their house to buy bible software my have it in English.
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby Barry Hofstetter » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:46 pm

C. S. Bartholomew wrote:
Bernd Strauss wrote:I needed to see what the surrounding context says, and have to ask others for help in such cases.


I spent years of my life studying both Greek and Hebrew apocalyptic literature (over 25 years ago). The author of this text appears to be employing a lot of stock (stereotyped) phrases which can be found in canonical sources. Someone who has read the New Testament and the Greek versions of the OT prophets will have only a few problems reading this text.

Translating is not the same as reading. Translating is all about solving problems with the target language. I looked around but wasn't able find a translation of this online. People who have mortgaged their house to buy bible software my have it in English.


As you say, it's not difficult Greek, with a few interesting exceptions, but nothing requiring a crux frustrationis. Logos doesn't have it (and I didn't mortgage anything to get it -- you can do quite well with the free version of Logos and then add materials as time goes on, many of them offered for free at various times). I think I saw it on Accordance, but that may only be the Greek text.
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:58 pm

The author of this text appears to be employing a lot of stock (stereotyped) phrases which can be found in canonical sources.


e.g., line 2 ἄγγελοι πονηροί

Is. 30:4 ὅτι εἰσὶν ἐν Τάνει ἀρχηγοὶ ἄγγελοι πονηροί· μάτην κοπιάσουσιν

RE: mortgaging the house

At the Accordance site. It may be buried in a collection somewhere.

https://www.accordancebible.com/store/d ... d=APOCAL-T
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby mwh » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:37 pm

I don’t see why παρουσια should not be translated “presence” (or “Presence”) and ελευσις “coming” (or “Coming”). In specialized Christian contexts they may refer to the same event, but that doesn’t make παρουσια mean ελευσις (or vice versa) any more than it makes “presence” mean “coming.”
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby Barry Hofstetter » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:56 pm

mwh wrote:I don’t see why παρουσια should not be translated “presence” (or “Presence”) and ελευσις “coming” (or “Coming”). In specialized Christian contexts they may refer to the same event, but that doesn’t make παρουσια mean ελευσις (or vice versa) any more than it makes “presence” mean “coming.”


Perfectly acceptable, I should think, but going against the grain. The specific translation tends to take into account the history of interpretation on the subject as well, going back at least as far as Jerome, e.g., Sicut enim fulgur exit ab oriente et paret usque in occidente ita erit et adventus Filii hominis. "Second presence" sounds distinctly odd to people.
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby jeidsath » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:08 am

In the other thread, Pseudo-Zonaras has "<Ἐλθεῖν>. τὸ γυμνῇ τῇ παρουσίᾳ χρήσασθαι." Surely παρουσία is arrival there?

Lampe has a very long entry for "παρουσία B. arrival, appearance, personal visit, advent." But some of the examples struck me as iffy. Here is his "of appearance of a demon in response to magic, Eus. d.e. 3.6":

ἐρωτητέον τε εἴ ποτε ὀφθαλμοῖς εἶδεν ἢ ἀκοῇ ἔγνω γόητάς τε καὶ φαρμακέας δίχα σπονδῶν καὶ θυμάτων καὶ δαιμόνων ἐπικλήσεώς τε καὶ παρουσίας γοητεύοντας.

Maybe "ἐπικλήσεώς τε καὶ παρουσίας" does mean "invocation and arrival," as Lampe suggests. But maybe it just means "invocation and presence."
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:13 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
mwh wrote:I don’t see why παρουσια should not be translated “presence” (or “Presence”) and ελευσις “coming” (or “Coming”). In specialized Christian contexts they may refer to the same event, but that doesn’t make παρουσια mean ελευσις (or vice versa) any more than it makes “presence” mean “coming.”


Perfectly acceptable, I should think, but going against the grain. The specific translation tends to take into account the history of interpretation on the subject as well, going back at least as far as Jerome, e.g., Sicut enim fulgur exit ab oriente et paret usque in occidente ita erit et adventus Filii hominis. "Second presence" sounds distinctly odd to people.

Jerome's own amillennialist views may have, in translation, conflated any difference the words held for a Greek authour, who held other eschatological beliefs. If Bernd's ultimate question is whether the use of the two words παρουσία and ἔλευσις in any way lends support to dispensational (pre-tribulation) premillennialism, with the (aborted) first approach being ἔλευσις and the actual touchdown being the παρουσία, then that may be worth discussing.

Bernd, are you fishing for linguistic support for a particular (eg pre-trib - post-trib) eschatological viewpoint?
I sang of the dancing stars,
I sang of the daedal Earth,
And of Heaven -- and the giant wars,
And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
(Shelley, Hymn of Pan)
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby Barry Hofstetter » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:32 am

jeidsath wrote:In the other thread, Pseudo-Zonaras has "<Ἐλθεῖν>. τὸ γυμνῇ τῇ παρουσίᾳ χρήσασθαι." Surely παρουσία is arrival there?

Lampe has a very long entry for "παρουσία B. arrival, appearance, personal visit, advent." But some of the examples struck me as iffy. Here is his "of appearance of a demon in response to magic, Eus. d.e. 3.6":

ἐρωτητέον τε εἴ ποτε ὀφθαλμοῖς εἶδεν ἢ ἀκοῇ ἔγνω γόητάς τε καὶ φαρμακέας δίχα σπονδῶν καὶ θυμάτων καὶ δαιμόνων ἐπικλήσεώς τε καὶ παρουσίας γοητεύοντας.

Maybe "ἐπικλήσεώς τε καὶ παρουσίας" does mean "invocation and arrival," as Lampe suggests. But maybe it just means "invocation and presence."


I think the context clearly indicates "presence" here. This translator agrees with you:

But I must again attack my opposer, and inquire if he has ever seen or heard of sorcerers and enchanters doing their sorcery without libations, incense, and the invocation and presence of daemons.


http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/euseb ... _book3.htm
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby Bernd Strauss » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:01 pm

There is an English translation of a certain Apocalypse of John the Theologian, but it is different:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0831.htm

The text which I quoted is marked as “versio tertia.” It may be a different text or another version of the same text.

by mwh » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:37 pm
I don’t see why παρουσια should not be translated “presence” (or “Presence”) and ελευσις “coming” (or “Coming”). In specialized Christian contexts they may refer to the same event, but that doesn’t make παρουσια mean ελευσις (or vice versa) any more than it makes “presence” mean “coming.”

The word παρουσια means “presence” in a lot of instances. But when a person speaks about Christ’s eschatological παρουσια, he is referring to Jesus’ coming at the final judgment, which corresponds to the Latin word adventus. I do not remember ever seeing English translators using the phrase “second presence” when rendering the phrase δευτέρα παρουσία in Greek texts.

by ἑκηβόλος » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:13 am
Bernd, are you fishing for linguistic support for a particular (eg pre-trib - post-trib) eschatological viewpoint?

I am looking for the linguistic support of the view that the word παρουσία is not an invisible presence preceding for some years the visible coming, but is the visible coming itself. Therefore, I am collecting instances from early Greek texts where the word παρουσία is used interchangeably with the word ἔλευσις and synonymously with such words as ἔρχομαι. When there is no English translation, I have to ask someone about what the sentences mean where the words appear.
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby jeidsath » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:49 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:I think the context clearly indicates "presence" here. This translator agrees with you:

But I must again attack my opposer, and inquire if he has ever seen or heard of sorcerers and enchanters doing their sorcery without libations, incense, and the invocation and presence of daemons.


http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/euseb ... _book3.htm


Well, if we do have "presence" or "appearance" to choose from, the τε makes "appearance" the better choice. The thought is a little awkward if ἐπικλήσεώς is really unlinked from παρουσίας. And Lampe really does have a very long list of examples buttressing this usage.

And isn't the pseudo-Zonaras interesting? It really seems as if there is a connotation of having just arrived.
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby Barry Hofstetter » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:05 pm

jeidsath wrote:
Barry Hofstetter wrote:Well, if we do have "presence" or "appearance" to choose from, the τε makes "appearance" the better choice. The thought is a little awkward if ἐπικλήσεώς is really unlinked from παρουσίας. And Lampe really does have a very long list of examples buttressing this usage.

And isn't the pseudo-Zonaras interesting? It really seems as if there is a connotation of having just arrived.


Well, Eusebius is talking about what sorcerers need to have to do their sorcery (contrasting how Jesus performed miracles), and this indicates to me that "presence" better captures the usage here. And yes, Pseudo-Z is interesting, and is part of the abundant evidence that shows part of the semantic range is also what we mean by "arrival" or "coming."
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:30 pm

Bernd Strauss wrote:
by ἑκηβόλος » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:13 am
Bernd, are you fishing for linguistic support for a particular (eg pre-trib - post-trib) eschatological viewpoint?

I am looking for the linguistic support of the view that the word παρουσία is not an invisible presence preceding for some years the visible coming, but is the visible coming itself. Therefore, I am collecting instances from early Greek texts where the word παρουσία is used interchangeably with the word ἔλευσις and synonymously with such words as ἔρχομαι. When there is no English translation, I have to ask someone about what the sentences mean where the words appear.

Do you really need to go to so much trouble? The word παρουσία means "presence" in the sense "the act of being there". The other meanings for "presence" in English - vague ghost, military force or charisma - are not in the Greek word. Even more precisely, παρουσία is only the act of being present, and does not even mean the space in which one is present. If you want to express the meaning of the English word "presence" in the sense of "immediate vicinity", the word πρόσωπον "face" or a one of a number of prepositions could be used.
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And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby Bernd Strauss » Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:06 pm

by ἑκηβόλος » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:30 pm
Do you really need to go to so much trouble? The word παρουσία means "presence" in the sense "the act of being there". The other meanings for "presence" in English - vague ghost, military force or charisma - are not in the Greek word. Even more precisely, παρουσία is only the act of being present, and does not even mean the space in which one is present. If you want to express the meaning of the English word "presence" in the sense of "immediate vicinity", the word πρόσωπον "face" or a one of a number of prepositions could be used.

I understand that the word παρουσία can mean only the state of presence and does not refer to the place and time of that state. But to show that the word refers to a coming and not presence in some contexts, it is useful to give examples from Greek writings where it is used in this way.

Since the word primarily means "presence," does anyone know why, from the perspective of the morphology of the word, people began to use it with the meaning “coming” in some contexts? TDNT gives the history of the usage of the word but does not clearly explain why it began to be used with this sense despite having “presence” as the primary meaning.
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:17 pm

Bernd Strauss wrote:Since the word primarily means "presence," does anyone know why, from the perspective of the morphology of the word, people began to use it with the meaning “coming” in some contexts? TDNT gives the history of the usage of the word but does not clearly explain why it began to be used with this sense despite having “presence” as the primary meaning.


It appears that you might be in over your head on this project. Perhaps you should read something on lexical semantics. The standard textbook by Moises Silva is now very old. Ernst R. Wendland reviews more recent work in semantic analysis. However Wendland will not be comprehensible to bible students who are not linguists.

Moises Silva, Biblical Words and their Meaning: An Introduction to Lexical Semantics, Zondervan 1983, revised ed. 1994.

J. P. Louw and E. A. Nida, Lexical Semantics of New Testament Greek, Scholars Press, 1992.

Framing the Frames: A Theoretical Framework for the Cognitive Notion of “Frames of Reference”
Ernst R. Wendland 2010
http://www-01.sil.org/siljot/2010/1/928 ... 0-1-03.pdf
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby mwh » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:14 pm

Stirling is right.
For starters, you should distinguish between meaning and reference, as I indicated in my previous post.
You might also bear in mind that if someone comes, he is present.
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:23 am

Bernd Strauss wrote:Since the word primarily means "presence," does anyone know why, from the perspective of the morphology of the word, people began to use it with the meaning “coming” in some contexts?

There is nothing in the morphology (the meaning of the individual constituent parts taken severally) of this word itself suggesting why its meaning would be extended to mean "coming". The morphology is παρα - in the company of somebody else, εσ - be, ο - no meaning, ντ - participle marker "-ing", σι - abstract noun, α - an alpha stem number case ending typical of some abstract nouns. As Stirling and Michael just intimated by not directly answering this question, the answer to it lies outside the question's terms of reference. The only thing morphology may add to our understanding, besides the narrow sense of " presence" that I described in my previous post, is perhaps that one can not be "present" alone.

To go beyond the word itself, it is possible that there may have been a popular confusion between εἰμὶ "be" and ἵημι "go". In some of their forms they are similar. It may have been construed by some that παρουσία was derived from παρίημι. I think that this explanation has challenges though.
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby Bernd Strauss » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:08 am

Thank you for the explanations. Apparently some words can be used apart from their literal meaning to refer to something partly synonymous or even different. I had previously inquired of Daniel Wallace about why the word παρουσία began to be used with the meaning “coming” despite having “presence” as the primary meaning, and he said that usage and etymology are not the same thing.
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Re: Translation of a Few Greek Sentences

Postby ἑκηβόλος » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Another way to look at παρεῖναι "to be present" / "to arrive" and παραγιγνεσθαι "to become present" is to see those rather non-descript verbs as part of the grammaticisation process required by the language. That us to suggest that the meaning comes from the preposition, and the because in most situations, Greek can't just add grammar to a preposition, it must first be made into a noun or verb, before it is incorporated into a sentence.

The level of Greek in this passage you are looking at should be noted. It appears to be a Modern Greek speaker, attempting to write in an older form of the language. The lack of the dative is one sign of that. In as far as the content of thevtext us concerned, it may be interesting, but it probably serves as an exemplar of deviation from a standard form of the language, rather than of the standard form of a language.
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I sang of the daedal Earth,
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And Love, and Death, and Birth, --
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